Draw Or No Draw

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McX wrote:

lurchiron, your a braver man than i. i'd go with, i have no police authority, therefor i can't do anything other than protect myself. my heart, and my head would be at odds during the entire event.

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And if you take one step backward, you have just given two steps to your agressor...no?

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i know, that's the terrible catch of carrying. how far do i go? what will stand up in court? will i know when i've crossed the line? can i live with myself if i fail to act? that's why i guess i still call myself an apprentice.

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McX wrote:

i know, that's the terrible catch of carrying. how far do i go? what will stand up in court? will i know when i've crossed the line? can i live with myself if i fail to act? that's why i guess i still call myself an apprentice.

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IMHO; criminals sense fear, but fear common sense. Much better to be feared, than to be afraid...no?

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i could go into philosophy, at least for me, at this point. i fear for my safety, therefor i carry. i seek a protective zone, therefor i open carry. i fear for the breakdown of law and order, therefor i own, and carry, and embrace. i fear for the safety of my family, therefor i prepare, plan, consider. open carry offers a unique deterrent effect. the small minds are afraid, just because i carry, they assume, they give me no credit for the dicipline, studying, training, learning, control. they presume my gun controls me, and i must admit, at times i will use that against them. an unfair and cruel advantage, their presumptions cause them to fear where no valid reason for fear exists.

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McX wrote:

i could go into philosophy, at least for me, at this point. i fear for my safety, therefor i carry. i seek a protective zone, therefor i open carry. i fear for the breakdown of law and order, therefor i own, and carry, and embrace. i fear for the safety of my family, therefor i prepare, plan, consider. open carry offers a unique deterrent effect. the small minds are afraid, just because i carry, they assume, they give me no credit for the dicipline, studying, training, learning, control. they presume my gun controls me, and i must admit, at times i will use that against them. an unfair and cruel advantage, their presumptions cause them to fear where no valid reason for fear exists.

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But it's not the sheeple we fear, it's the unknown factor; that is what keeps you on your toes.

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the problem is the unknown factor is now the known, you see it on the street every day, you read it in the paper, all the things that one would think would never happen, a variant comes to pass, it happens afar, it happens close. i beleive the only refuge is within ourselves, our own ablitity to protect ourselves. i didn't invent the gun, but it is a machine, a machine that is deadly, dangerous, just as a car can be, a car protects,and cradles us from the outside world. my firearm, my machine, protects me from harm. it signals i have at least the option to act. but it sticks a label on me too; have you ever been asked in casual conversation if you've shot anyone today? an asumption, an insult to me and my dicipline? i grow tired of telling the sheeple of my training, learning, intent, my dicipline. the fact that my firearm hs never been fired. i get upset when they feel i can't laugh, cry, pound my fists in anger, because i have a machine on my hip. they presume the gun controls me. of quoting the laws that limit me, that i have to obey every moment, that they never consider. and though i do all that is expected of me, all that is right, they still damn me, because of the machine on my hip.

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Well...Elephants have the same problem; what with all those lame 'Ol trunk jokes they have to put up with.:lol:

I seek solace in the fact that I, and only I; am in control of my destiny. I do not need to wait for someone to rescue me in my time of need.

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best 2 sentence post ever. i obviously talk too much.

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McX wrote:

one last one; your at apu's again. your carrying. your back by the coolers, checking out the beverages. clerk is at the counter. some thug rushes in, sticks a gun in the poor clerk's face, open the cash register, or i'll blow you away. the clerk is shaking, and trying to open the register. the scumbag takes a moment to look around, and now he's zeroed in on you. he's going to be making a decision here, the gun is on the clerk, but his eyes are on you. draw or no draw?

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Do not draw immediately. Wait for him to move. Do not let him know you are armed. Since you are in the back, you have time. Best case is that he takes the money and runs. A cool head will prevail. Going only by your description of the scenerio, if you were to instantly draw and fire at the felonbut hit the clerk, you will be successfully prosecuted.

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My thoughts are to never draw unless the next thing I will be doing is pulling the trigger. Evade the harm, run if possible - only use deadly force when it is absolutely the last choice.

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I'll preface this with a reminder that just because I have pulled my sidearm and leveled it at a perp, I need not fire unless the perp continues to advance or moves his firearm toward me. Many would-be criminals have retreated at the sight of a .45 caliber barrel leveled at them.

#1 I'd lock eyes with gun boy and start moving for advantage. My gun hand ready and near but not on my sidearm. No draw at this time.

#2 Don't know who's who. No draw. However, I can not run far nor can I hide well so if need be, I would draw and fire. Their guns being out and pointed in my direction would be enough motivation for me.

#3 At this range, I would begin moving, draw my sidearm while backing away to an exit. However, if the perp lunged, I would fire.

#4 I'm in mortal danger, at this range, I would have no choice but to draw and fire to stop the threat.

#5 I am in mortal danger, Draw and fire.

#6 Draw and fire. No hesitation here. Perps gun is leveled at the clerk, I'm trapped, he's seen me, the clerk is in mortal danger as am I.

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McX

I love the questions that you are bringing up.

But, trying to follow all the discusions for each scenario is TOO MUCH.

May I heavily suggest, Post each scenario as its owm thread.

Draw or No Draw

then an encapsulated summary in the secondary subject line.

I want to debate with a few person's respnses, but with several senarios in one thread and people replying without quoting is too hard for me to follow the discusion. Maybe I just need to get some sleep.

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McX wrote:

your standing at the counter of your favorite apu store. 3 punks come in, and see you carrying. One hoodie stops, and lifts his shirt to show you his concealed firearm. He is probably a felon. He doesn't go for the gun, but aint moving either. Draw or no draw?

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I would have to be there to say for sure.

He showed me that his is carrying a concealed firearm. What was he trying to tell me?

I would adust to be in a defensive postion, meaing that my right hand is empty or can easily discard what I chose to have in my right hand. I would make the best assessment I can about the whereabouts of the other twoas they may also be carrying conceealed. I would attemtp to leave with my purchase, as if I want no altercations, Dial 911 as soon as I could. I may have even told the clerk to dial 911 while I observe the three which would have changed the situation.

At this point, I would not draw yet. My senses are heightned to make the best assessment. IF I draw on the one, I could be shot by one of the other two.

If the one were to place a hand on the gun, I would instantly draw and take aim and take note of the reaction of the other two. With out more information that is all I can say..

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great responses, and envolvement, thought. i will try to keep my ranting to a minimum lest i get a flag on the play from the moderator; excessive ranting, off topic, 5 day no post penalty. heh-heh.
there are a million variations of each scenario, and i don't know how to start separate threads, plus i don't want to clog up our state forum with a kazillion threads. i ask everyone to bear with me, and do the drag and rop or paste and whatever thing to stay on the topic they wish to address. by the numbers shown it appears many are interested. hopefully the new members, and young ones will gain knowledge from what we discuss here.
i'll go 2 more, but then i'd like to hand it off to another poster, to give us, and me even, a scenario to comment on. ok, crack my knuckles, here's my next 2;

it's early, and the sun has not come up yet. but it's light enough to see objects, but little detail. you exit your fine subdivision home, in your stately and politically correct neighborhood, to get your newspaper that the paper kid has left at the end of the driveway, not in the box, yet again. your in your jammies, but because of a rash of breakins, your trusty friend is tucked in your robe pocket. your half way down your driveway, when you look to the left, to see the window of your neighbor's house open, there are 2 subjects present there; one is in the house, passing items out the window to another standing on the ground outside the house. the one in the window sees you, and tells the one standing on the ground; look! get him! the subject on the ground begins to walk toward you, the other one is scrambling out the window to join his pal, the first one advancing has something in his hand, but it is still relatively dark, and you can't see it clearly. they are now less than 25 feet from you, and continuing to advance, a light breeze blows under your robe to remind you you are not dressed, nor ready to do any kung fu fighting..............draw or no draw?

now your back in the urban environment; your getting ready to leave your home, numerous cars are parked on the the street. as you go out your door, carrying ofcourse, you hear glass break, and see 2 subjects, one on each side of a car with the doors open, obviously buisy removing someone's expensive stereo system. you take a few steps, and the subject closest to you, stands up from the car, and turns, and walks toward you with a large screwdriver in his hand. the other one, is farthest from you, and hasn't joined his buddy yet, he's still working on the stereo. it is all happening very quickly, so you get no other data input. Draw or no draw?

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Interceptor_Knight wrote:

McX wrote:

one last one; your at apu's again. your carrying. your back by the coolers, checking out the beverages. clerk is at the counter. some thug rushes in, sticks a gun in the poor clerk's face, open the cash register, or i'll blow you away. the clerk is shaking, and trying to open the register. the scumbag takes a moment to look around, and now he's zeroed in on you. he's going to be making a decision here, the gun is on the clerk, but his eyes are on you. draw or no draw?

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Do not draw immediately. Wait for him to move. Do not let him know you are armed. Since you are in the back, you have time. Best case is that he takes the money and runs. A cool head will prevail. Going only by your description of the scenerio, if you were to instantly draw and fire at the felonbut hit the clerk, you will be successfully prosecuted.

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Are you sure about that? Can you please enlighten us on how you can predict what a jury of 12 would decide?

I would say, you would possibly be prosecuted if the DA was so inclined to open the can of worms that most other DA's wouldn't. Would that prosecution be successful? Only the jury could answer that. IMHO there is only a very slim chance.

First off if you are aiming at the offender and you hit the clerk who is standing on the opposite side of the counter after you have insured there is a reasonable distance between the two and you are standing to their side and you hit the clerk. You deserve to go to jail because you are obviously to stupid to take the time to learn how to shoot a fire arm. It is called aiming. doesn't take a high education to be a good shot or squeeze a trigger. Just some practice. (Note I did not say training or mandated training)

Hell if I am standing to the side and I can see I have a good 3 or 4 feet in between the two I would defend the clerks life. No one here knows except the offender if he will kill the clerk after he gets the money and to top this all off, If the offender did kill the clerk after getting the money, guess what? You are probably the only person left in the store in possession of a fire arm. Who do you think the police will target first when they come in the door? I would drop him.

If he lowers his fire arm while the clerk is retrieving the cash then I may draw and yell Police or Stop, let me see your hands. (Who cares if you are a cop or not at this point) If he turns the gun on me, I drop him. If he lowers or drops the gun and runs hey what a great day for everyone huh? Just call the cops and give them the info.

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J.Gleason wrote:

Interceptor_Knight wrote:

McX wrote:

one last one; your at apu's again. your carrying. your back by the coolers, checking out the beverages. clerk is at the counter. some thug rushes in, sticks a gun in the poor clerk's face, open the cash register, or i'll blow you away. the clerk is shaking, and trying to open the register. the scumbag takes a moment to look around, and now he's zeroed in on you. he's going to be making a decision here, the gun is on the clerk, but his eyes are on you. draw or no draw?

Click to expand...

Do not draw immediately. Wait for him to move. Do not let him know you are armed. Since you are in the back, you have time. Best case is that he takes the money and runs. A cool head will prevail. Going only by your description of the scenerio, if you were to instantly draw and fire at the felonbut hit the clerk, you will be successfully prosecuted.

Click to expand...

Are you sure about that? Can you please enlighten us on how you can predict what a jury of 12 would decide?

I would say, you would possibly be prosecuted if the DA was so inclined to open the can of worms that most other DA's wouldn't. Would that prosecution be successful? Only the jury could answer that. IMHO there is only a very slim chance.

First off if you are aiming at the offender and you hit the clerk who is standing on the opposite side of the counter after you have insured there is a reasonable distance between the two and you are standing to their side and you hit the clerk. You deserve to go to jail because you are obviously to stupid to take the time to learn how to shoot a fire arm. It is called aiming. doesn't take a high education to be a good shot or squeeze a trigger. Just some practice. (Note I did not say training or mandated training)

Hell if I am standing to the side and I can see I have a good 3 or 4 feet in between the two I would defend the clerks life. No one here knows except the offender if he will kill the clerk after he gets the money and to top this all off, If the offender did kill the clerk after getting the money, guess what? You are probably the only person left in the store in possession of a fire arm. Who do you think the police will target first when they come in the door? I would drop him.

If he lowers his fire arm while the clerk is retrieving the cash then I may draw and yell Police or Stop, let me see your hands. (Who cares if you are a cop or not at this point) If he turns the gun on me, I drop him. If he lowers or drops the gun and runs hey what a great day for everyone huh? Just call the cops and give them the info.

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100% agreement.

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ref; the store robbery at apu's; if the scumbag has the gun on the clerk, but is looking me over, most likely he is facing the clerk, since i'm deep in the store, any shot would be out toward the front of the usually glass front of the building. a .40 cal might go through the 'bag, and out into the public domain. backstop issue to me. also since the 'bag is facing the clerk, my shot would probably be a shot to the back. i wonder if that one might run me afoul of the DA. and then ofcourse, as all commented, there is the risk of hitting the poor clerk. i would still stick with, down and draw, and cover. if it was apparent the scum was about to shoot the clerk, i would have to weigh my decisions at that moment.

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McX wrote:

ref; the store robbery at apu's; if the scumbag has the gun on the clerk, but is looking me over, most likely he is facing the clerk, since i'm deep in the store, any shot would be out toward the front of the usually glass front of the building. a .40 cal might go through the 'bag, and out into the public domain. backstop issue to me. also since the 'bag is facing the clerk, my shot would probably be a shot to the back. i wonder if that one might run me afoul of the DA. and then ofcourse, as all commented, there is the risk of hitting the poor clerk. i would still stick with, down and draw, and cover. if it was apparent the scum was about to shoot the clerk, i would have to weigh my decisions at that moment.

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I don't know if you could stop the fluidity of the moment; it's going be happening damn quick. Again, if you freeze to decide; you have just given the agressor control of the situation. I would think that you would want to remain in control, so as to "steer" the plot to your advantage...no?

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i don't know about remaining in control Lurchiron, i wouldn't be in control of much, myself, and my firearm. i would be gambling that the criminal wants the money, and not to shoot anyone, i would probably be a target the minute he zeroes in on me, probably hunkered down behind the beer cases, and bags of dog food. i wouldn't be advancing, only defending. i just hope the clerk doesn't freeze, nor not cooperate, and just give up the cash. again, i stress, i have no police authority, i have no obligation to protect anyone else, nor any obligation to stop a crime. i know that sounds terrible, but it might keep me from doing 20 years somewhere. the clerk is responsible for their own safety, they should be carrying as i would, or have one planted under the counter in reach. if the clerk starts to fumble, and the criminal becomes insistant, and his attention, angrily, is drawn back to the clerk, and he readies to shoot, rather than just waving the gun around-brandishing in the extreme- so to speak, then yes, i would deem that the clerk is going to get it, and move from cover to intercept.

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McX wrote:

i don't know about remaining in control Lurchiron, i wouldn't be in control of much, myself, and my firearm. i would be gambling that the criminal wants the money, and not to shoot anyone, i would probably be a target the minute he zeroes in on me, probably hunkered down behind the beer cases, and bags of dog food. i wouldn't be advancing, only defending. i just hope the clerk doesn't freeze, nor not cooperate, and just give up the cash. again, i stress, i have no police authority, i have no obligation to protect anyone else, nor any obligation to stop a crime. i know that sounds terrible, but it might keep me from doing 20 years somewhere. the clerk is responsible for their own safety, they should be carrying as i would, or have one planted under the counter in reach. if the clerk starts to fumble, and the criminal becomes insistant, and his attention, angrily, is drawn back to the clerk, and he readies to shoot, rather than just waving the gun around-brandishing in the extreme- so to speak, then yes, i would deem that the clerk is going to get it, and move from cover to intercept.

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And don't forget to...Aim small, miss small. :lol: