Duty to identify

Lammie · Feb 14, 2010

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WHY UPSET THE CART?

We have not had 2,777,955 casualties in 12 major wars protecting our freedom and theBill of Rights just to have them squandered away because we don't want to upset the cart!

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_casualties_of_war

DRG · Apr 4, 2010

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I am not a lawyer and can give you no legal advise, this is all my opinion.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stop_and_Identify_statutes#States_with_.E2.80.9Cstop-and-identify.E2.80.9D_statutes

First it depends on what type of encounter it is: consensual, detainment(terry stop), or arrest.

To determine if the stop is consensual, ask "Am I free to go?" or "Am I being detained?" or something similar. Some LEO's will not want to answer that question. He will try to deflect you with questions of his own, but just keep asking if you are free to go. If you are free to go, you have the right to just walk away without saying another thing. If you stick around you are agreeing to the consensual encounter. You still have the right to not speak if you don't walk away, but the cop has the right to keep asking you questions.

If it is a terry stop or an arrest, according to the law, you have to give your name, address, and conduct under §968.24. The constitutionality of requiring your address and conduct has not been addressed by the courts. But requiring your name has been addressed and it is constitutional. Personally, I would just give name and address cause I think telling them why I'm there could be giving up my 5th amendment rights.

You are not required to carry ID unless you are driving. If you are driving, you MUST produce ID when asked for it.

NEVER lie to a police officer. If you don't like the question, don't answer it. Respond with either silence, "I choose not to answer that", "I would like to consult with my lawyer", or ask him a question(basically not answering his). Answering his question with a question will piss him off.

Always keep in mind that even though it is against the law for you to lie to a LEO, it is NOT against the law for him to lie to you. Some LEO's will try to intimidate you and lie to you. Its your responsibility to know your rights.

LEO: "let me see your ID"
me: "do i have to give it to you?"
LEO: "yes, its the law"

If you are not driving, it is not the law. But he can lie to you about it.

ALSO, keep in mind that any LEO can arrest you for anything he wants too. If he doesn't like your choice of shirts he can arrest you for disorderly conduct, and take you down to the station. If he thinks its the law that you have to show ID, he can arrest you and take you to the station for not producing your ID. He can do anything he wants. Then the DA has to decide if he wants to press any charges. MANY MANY people have been thrown in jail for up to 72 hours just to have the DA drop all charges, just because the LEO didn't like someone's attitude or he didn't know the law. So choose wisely when not answering a LEO's questions or disobeying his orders.

J.Gleason · Apr 5, 2010

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Wisconsin Carry, Inc. - Chairman wrote:

You have every right (if you aren't operating a motor vehicle)not to provide ID. You have the right to remain silent. You do not have to provide ID, your name, or your address. Wisconsin has no stop and identify statute.

+ 1000

You have Rights for a reason. Use them.

As for the stop and identify issue:

968.24 Temporary questioning without arrest.
After having identified himself or herself as a law enforcement officer, a law enforcement officer may stop a person in a public place for a reasonable period of time when the officer reasonably suspects that such person is committing, is about to commit or has committed a crime, and may demand the name and address of the person and an explanation of the person’s conduct. Such detention and temporary questioning shall be conducted in the vicinity where the person was stopped.

Would apply as long as the LEO has RAS.

J.Gleason · Apr 5, 2010

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AaronS wrote:

BROKENSPROKET wrote:

I think what I am about to say may contradictthe popular concensus of OCDO members.

My conviction is that if one is going to exercise the right to Open Carry, then you must do so with a great measure of responsibility such as firearms safety training, pratice marksmanship skills, weapon retention tactics, contemplate Draw or No Draw scenarios and situational awareness. I think everyone still on board so far

In addition to that, I feel strongly that if an LEO asks a person for ID while they OC, then surrender it immediatley. I know its not a requirement of the law, but I feel that would be a responsible reponse while I OC. If LEO get conditioned to not question or bother someone that will not cooperativley ID themselves, then criminals will adjust and POSE as a OC law abiding citizen, while they may have a warrant, been convicted of a felony or domestic abuse charge, or have an restraining order against them.

IF WE, LAW ABIDING CITIZENS DO NOT COOPERATIVELY ID OURSELVES WHEN WE ARE IN THE ACT OF OPEN CARRYING, THEN WE ARE NOTHELPING LEOFROM KEEPING THOSE WHO CANNOT LEGALLY DO SO FROM DOING SO. Having BG pose as law abiding OC citiznes andLEO cannot properly ID them will give alot of ammunition to WAVE and the anti-gun proponents.

Click to expand...

For the most part I disagree.

If the only reason the cops stop and demand ID from you is the fact that you are exercising your right to self protection, then the cops are not my friends in the first place. If I were in my car, I could understand being asked for ID, but not if I am just shopping, or walking down the street. The right to open carry in Wisconsin is just that, a right. I do not have any reason or need to show ID to be able to exercise any of my other rights, so why would I for Art.1 Sec.25?

A "bad man" with a holstered gun could make him look like a law abiding person. But, in Milwaukee our "bad men" open carry all the time, most of them just keep the gun in hand... Never in my life have I read about an open carry "BG"... Have you?

I have to agree with Aaron here. It would be different if there had just been an armed robbery at the nearby gas station. I could understand the LEO just stopping you and asking for ID then. But for them to just stop and detain you for no reason other than the fact that you were OCing is un-called for.

J.Gleason · Apr 5, 2010

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Lammie wrote:

WHY UPSET THE CART?

We have not had 2,777,955 casualties in 12 major wars protecting our freedom and theBill of Rights just to have them squandered away because we don't want to upset the cart!

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_casualties_of_war

Well said Lammie!

J.Gleason · Apr 5, 2010

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DRG wrote:

I am not a lawyer and can give you no legal advise, this is all my opinion.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stop_and_Identify_statutes#States_with_.E2.80.9Cstop-and-identify.E2.80.9D_statutes

First it depends on what type of encounter it is: consensual, detainment(terry stop), or arrest.

To determine if the stop is consensual, ask "Am I free to go?" or "Am I being detained?" or something similar. Some LEO's will not want to answer that question. He will try to deflect you with questions of his own, but just keep asking if you are free to go. If you are free to go, you have the right to just walk away without saying another thing. If you stick around you are agreeing to the consensual encounter. You still have the right to not speak if you don't walk away, but the cop has the right to keep asking you questions.

If it is a terry stop or an arrest, according to the law, you have to give your name, address, and conduct under §968.24. The constitutionality of requiring your address and conduct has not been addressed by the courts. But requiring your name has been addressed and it is constitutional. Personally, I would just give name and address cause I think telling them why I'm there could be giving up my 5th amendment rights.

You are not required to carry ID unless you are driving. If you are driving, you MUST produce ID when asked for it.

NEVER lie to a police officer. If you don't like the question, don't answer it. Respond with either silence, "I choose not to answer that", "I would like to consult with my lawyer", or ask him a question(basically not answering his). Answering his question with a question will piss him off.

Always keep in mind that even though it is against the law for you to lie to a LEO, it is NOT against the law for him to lie to you. Some LEO's will try to intimidate you and lie to you. Its your responsibility to know your rights.

LEO: "let me see your ID"
me: "do i have to give it to you?"
LEO: "yes, its the law"

If you are not driving, it is not the law. But he can lie to you about it.

ALSO, keep in mind that any LEO can arrest you for anything he wants too. If he doesn't like your choice of shirts he can arrest you for disorderly conduct, and take you down to the station. If he thinks its the law that you have to show ID, he can arrest you and take you to the station for not producing your ID. He can do anything he wants. Then the DA has to decide if he wants to press any charges. MANY MANY people have been thrown in jail for up to 72 hours just to have the DA drop all charges, just because the LEO didn't like someone's attitude or he didn't know the law. So choose wisely when not answering a LEO's questions or disobeying his orders.

And you can call him on it by quoting the law back to him as well. Let him know that you know he is lying to you and that has destroyed his credibility. Then ask if you are being detained or are free to go. If he does not answer, walk away. Game over.

Master Doug Huffman · Apr 5, 2010

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Notice, too, that "identify" does not necessarily require presenting government issued documents. Those are required only in specific cases, like establishing ones privilege to drive.

rcawdor57 · Apr 5, 2010

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J.Gleason wrote:

Lammie wrote:

WHY UPSET THE CART?

We have not had 2,777,955 casualties in 12 major wars protecting our freedom and theBill of Rights just to have them squandered away because we don't want to upset the cart!

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_casualties_of_war

Click to expand...

Well said Lammie!

I second that Lammie! WELL SAID! I will NEVER produce I.D. OR provide my name, address, etc..."just because a LEO wants to know the information because I am open carrying". NEVER. Rights are RIGHTS. We support them, we defend them, we take an oath to do both and yet many are willing to give it all away in an instant. NOT ME. I took an oath to the Constitution when I was 19 and have supported and defended the Constitution for the past 33 years and will continue to do so until the day I die.

Big_Grumpy · Apr 5, 2010

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The way I look at it is, it's up to cops to find the bad guys, right? They don't have a crystal ball to do that. If they see some guy walking down the street with a weapon that has the power to KILL I don't think it unreasonable for them towant to see if the person is indeed on the "up and up". Their job is protecting citizens, and they have a job to do.

Personally, I would peacefully comply and state my purpose for carrying if asked. As long as I'm following the law, I have nothing to hide. I don't see it as harassment unless the cop is being belligerent about his questioning.

Also by peacefully complying, I think it would prove to a lot of officers that hey, we're on your side, too.

Nutczak · Apr 5, 2010

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Big_Grumpy wrote:

The way I look at it is, it's up to cops to find the bad guys, right? They don't have a crystal ball to do that. If they see some guy walking down the street with a weapon that has the power to KILL I don't think it unreasonable for them towant to see if the person is indeed on the "up and up". Their job is protecting citizens, and they have a job to do.

Personally, I would peacefully comply and state my purpose for carrying if asked. As long as I'm following the law, I have nothing to hide. I don't see it as harassment unless the cop is being belligerent about his questioning.

Also by peacefully complying, I think it would prove to a lot of officers that hey, we're on your side, too.

Personally, I would peacefully comply and state my purpose for carrying if asked. As long as I'm following the law, I have nothing to hide. I don't see it as harassment unless the cop is being belligerent about his questioning.

You really need to put down the kool-aid and push your chair away from the table, You have obviouslyhad enough!

WTF Grumpy?? Are you friggin serious?? This is not Nazi Germany, we are not required to carry our papers to prove we are free. I would be willing to bet every veteran who has lost their life fighting for our rightsis rolling over in their grave right now with your statement.

If you are doing nothing illegal, why do you feel the cops should be able toharass people? What massive liberal indoctrination center did you get handed a degree from?
Where would you draw the line? What about a cop just entering your home to make sure you did not tear the tag off your mattress? And while he is there he can just make sure your television is not stolen property by running the serial number, and you actually pay for cable!How about a cop pulling you over just to make sure you are not an escaped felon? How about a cop searching you at any time any place just to make sure that you do not have any stolen property with you?

Peacefully complying to detainment with no probable cause or reasonable articulate suspicion?
Maybe North Korea would be a better place to live if you feel government should run every bit of your life.

You may think I am being harsh, but I have actually been holding back, people with beliefs like you make me sick!!

rcawdor57 · Apr 5, 2010

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Nutczak wrote:

Big_Grumpy wrote:

The way I look at it is, it's up to cops to find the bad guys, right? They don't have a crystal ball to do that. If they see some guy walking down the street with a weapon that has the power to KILL I don't think it unreasonable for them towant to see if the person is indeed on the "up and up". Their job is protecting citizens, and they have a job to do.

Personally, I would peacefully comply and state my purpose for carrying if asked. As long as I'm following the law, I have nothing to hide. I don't see it as harassment unless the cop is being belligerent about his questioning.

Also by peacefully complying, I think it would prove to a lot of officers that hey, we're on your side, too.

Click to expand...

Personally, I would peacefully comply and state my purpose for carrying if asked. As long as I'm following the law, I have nothing to hide. I don't see it as harassment unless the cop is being belligerent about his questioning.

Click to expand...

You really need to put down the kool-aid and push your chair away from the table, You have obviouslyhad enough!

WTF Grumpy?? Are you friggin serious?? This is not Nazi Germany, we are not required to carry our papers to prove we are free. I would be willing to bet every veteran who has lost their life fighting for our rightsis rolling over in their grave right now with your statement.

If you are doing nothing illegal, why do you feel the cops should be able toharass people? What massive liberal indoctrination center did you get handed a degree from?
Where would you draw the line? What about a cop just entering your home to make sure you did not tear the tag off your mattress? And while he is there he can just make sure your television is not stolen property by running the serial number, and you actually pay for cable!How about a cop pulling you over just to make sure you are not an escaped felon? How about a cop searching you at any time any place just to make sure that you do not have any stolen property with you?

Peacefully complying to detainment with no probable cause or reasonable articulate suspicion?
Maybe North Korea would be a better place to live if you feel government should run every bit of your life.

You may think I am being harsh, but I have actually been holding back, people with beliefs like you make me sick!!

Nutzcrak, I agree with you 100%. Here is a video that was recently posted on Youtube that makes your point (as well as mine). Want to see the police violating a person's rights over and over? WATCH THIS:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mCKWOI99UKM

Big_Grumpy · Apr 5, 2010

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Nutczak wrote:

WTF Grumpy?? Are you friggin serious?? This is not Nazi Germany, we are not required to carry our papers to prove we are free. I would be willing to bet every veteran who has lost their life fighting for our rights is rolling over in their grave right now with your statement.

If you are doing nothing illegal, why do you feel the cops should be able toharass people? What massive liberal indoctrination center did you get handed a degree from?

Sorry, I'm about as anti liberal as you can get. I just see it as "common" sense. As I stated cops don't have a crystal ball to differentiate people that may pose animminent potential threat to the peace as opposed to someone who is carrying to exercise their right of self preservation.
How are they supposed to know unless they ask questions? Maybe the person has been drinking... maybe they have priors and aren't allowed to carry... maybe they're certifiably insane... Would you want someone like that carrying on YOUR street, unquestioned? Oh no... they're exercising their rights and people carrying guns should be left alone. Right.

No, I'll stand by my statement that I really would have no problem being questioned (not harassed) by an LEO trying to find out if you are legit and not someone who should not be carrying a firearm.

It doesn't HAVE to be us vs. them. By working WITH them I feel we will be more successful in our quest to further define gun laws than be unreasonable and thumb our noses at police whom I feel are trying to do their job.

Big_Grumpy · Apr 5, 2010

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Like I said.. questioned, fine. Threatened and harassed, no. If a cop tries to "bully" me... you better believe I'll take issue with that.

bigdaddy1 · Apr 5, 2010

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DRG wrote:

I am not a lawyer and can give you no legal advise, this is all my opinion.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stop_and_Identify_statutes#States_with_.E2.80.9Cstop-and-identify.E2.80.9D_statutes

First it depends on what type of encounter it is: consensual, detainment(terry stop), or arrest.

To determine if the stop is consensual, ask "Am I free to go?" or "Am I being detained?" or something similar. Some LEO's will not want to answer that question. He will try to deflect you with questions of his own, but just keep asking if you are free to go. If you are free to go, you have the right to just walk away without saying another thing. If you stick around you are agreeing to the consensual encounter. You still have the right to not speak if you don't walk away, but the cop has the right to keep asking you questions.

If it is a terry stop or an arrest, according to the law, you have to give your name, address, and conduct under §968.24. The constitutionality of requiring your address and conduct has not been addressed by the courts. But requiring your name has been addressed and it is constitutional. Personally, I would just give name and address cause I think telling them why I'm there could be giving up my 5th amendment rights.

You are not required to carry ID unless you are driving. If you are driving, you MUST produce ID when asked for it.

NEVER lie to a police officer. If you don't like the question, don't answer it. Respond with either silence, "I choose not to answer that", "I would like to consult with my lawyer", or ask him a question(basically not answering his). Answering his question with a question will piss him off.

Always keep in mind that even though it is against the law for you to lie to a LEO, it is NOT against the law for him to lie to you. Some LEO's will try to intimidate you and lie to you. Its your responsibility to know your rights.

LEO: "let me see your ID"
me: "do i have to give it to you?"
LEO: "yes, its the law"

If you are not driving, it is not the law. But he can lie to you about it.

ALSO, keep in mind that any LEO can arrest you for anything he wants too. If he doesn't like your choice of shirts he can arrest you for disorderly conduct, and take you down to the station. If he thinks its the law that you have to show ID, he can arrest you and take you to the station for not producing your ID. He can do anything he wants. Then the DA has to decide if he wants to press any charges. MANY MANY people have been thrown in jail for up to 72 hours just to have the DA drop all charges, just because the LEO didn't like someone's attitude or he didn't know the law. So choose wisely when not answering a LEO's questions or disobeying his orders.

Excellent and concise first post. Welcome to the forum

Master Doug Huffman · Apr 5, 2010

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Well, that is exactly the question. When does a cop become a 'bully'?

And that is an unfortunate word now that the children are complaining of and suiciding over internet bullying. I'll bet we could find a better word.

A cop becomes a bully when the conversation becomes non-consensual.

Big_Grumpy · Apr 5, 2010

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Master Doug Huffman wrote:

Well, that is exactly the question. When does a cop become a 'bully'?

And that is an unfortunate word now that the children are complaining of and suiciding over internet bullying. I'll bet we could find a better word.

A cop becomes a bully when the conversation becomes non-consensual.

A cop becomes a bully if they try to tell me that I can't carry in an area whereas the law states I can, and/or threatens/arrests me on some BS charge and/or threatens/takes my weapon away when I am doing nothing wrong.

If it's civil questions in a civil manner, and not some cop with a god complex, fine.

rcawdor57 · Apr 5, 2010

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Master Doug Huffman wrote:

Well, that is exactly the question. When does a cop become a 'bully'?

And that is an unfortunate word now that the children are complaining of and suiciding over internet bullying. I'll bet we could find a better word.

A cop becomes a bully when the conversation becomes non-consensual.

"A cop becomes a bully when the conversation becomes non-consensual."

I agree with that statement Doug! Unfortunately it seems most cops ALREADY have the "Bully attitude" AND the "Us VS Them" mentality.

To me it is simple: Keep to oneself, mind your own business, hurt no others without threat of bodily harm to oneself and live a honest and free life.

There truly needs to be a "balance of justice" with our LEO's. When there are little to no repercussions to an individual LEO for violating one's rights they will continue to usurp their authority which in itself broadens that authority well beyond the original scope. When a citizen can be arrested for a "criminal offense" merely due to a LEO's abuse of authority our only recourse is a civil suit and or a complaint filing. If the LEO loses in civil court or the complaint is justified then that particular LEO should immediately have criminal charges filed against him or her and prosecuted to the full extent of the law in a jury trial. In America today, that just doesn't happen. Hence, we are overrun with LEO "Bullies".

AaronS · Apr 5, 2010

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rcawdor57 wrote:

Nutzcrak, I agree with you 100%. Here is a video that was recently posted on Youtube that makes your point (as well as mine). Want to see the police violating a person's rights over and over? WATCH THIS:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mCKWOI99UKM

WoW... That one is just ...Wow...

And that's our local law, doing what ever feels right to them...

If this were in Fla. would the home owner been with in her rights to "open fire" on the first person that broke in to her back door? Remember, no search warrant was ever given. The homeowner said several times that no one had permission to enter. I wonder...

http://legal-dictionary.thefreedictionary.com/Search+warrant

J.Gleason · Apr 5, 2010

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rcawdor57 wrote:

Nutczak wrote:

Big_Grumpy wrote:

The way I look at it is, it's up to cops to find the bad guys, right? They don't have a crystal ball to do that. If they see some guy walking down the street with a weapon that has the power to KILL I don't think it unreasonable for them to want to see if the person is indeed on the "up and up". Their job is protecting citizens, and they have a job to do.

Personally, I would peacefully comply and state my purpose for carrying if asked. As long as I'm following the law, I have nothing to hide. I don't see it as harassment unless the cop is being belligerent about his questioning.

Also by peacefully complying, I think it would prove to a lot of officers that hey, we're on your side, too.

Click to expand...

Personally, I would peacefully comply and state my purpose for carrying if asked. As long as I'm following the law, I have nothing to hide. I don't see it as harassment unless the cop is being belligerent about his questioning.

Click to expand...

You really need to put down the kool-aid and push your chair away from the table, You have obviously had enough!

WTF Grumpy?? Are you friggin serious?? This is not Nazi Germany, we are not required to carry our papers to prove we are free. I would be willing to bet every veteran who has lost their life fighting for our rights is rolling over in their grave right now with your statement.

If you are doing nothing illegal, why do you feel the cops should be able to harass people? What massive liberal indoctrination center did you get handed a degree from?
Where would you draw the line? What about a cop just entering your home to make sure you did not tear the tag off your mattress? And while he is there he can just make sure your television is not stolen property by running the serial number, and you actually pay for cable! How about a cop pulling you over just to make sure you are not an escaped felon? How about a cop searching you at any time any place just to make sure that you do not have any stolen property with you?

Peacefully complying to detainment with no probable cause or reasonable articulate suspicion?
Maybe North Korea would be a better place to live if you feel government should run every bit of your life.

You may think I am being harsh, but I have actually been holding back, people with beliefs like you make me sick!!

Click to expand...

Nutzcrak, I agree with you 100%. Here is a video that was recently posted on Youtube that makes your point (as well as mine). Want to see the police violating a person's rights over and over? WATCH THIS:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mCKWOI99UKM

I was a Bail enforcement agent for over 10 years. Still do the work if the money is right.

Taylor -v- Taintor 83 U.S. 366 (1872)

"When bail is given, the principal is regarded as delivered to the custody of his sureties. Their dominion is a continuance of the original imprisonment. Whenever they choose to do so, they may seize him and deliver him up in their discharge; and if that cannot be done at once, they may imprison him until it can be done. They may exercise their rights in person or by agent. They may pursue him into another State; may arrest him on the Sabbath; and if necessary, may break and enter his house for that purpose. The seizure is not made by virtue of new process. None is needed. It is likened to the rearrest by the sheriff of an escaping prisoner."

This was not an illegal raid. The only one claiming it as illegal is the woman who is the wife of the man the Bail enforcement officer was looking for. If it is listed on his bail bond as being his home. They can legally go in,

When a person signs a bail bond, that person signs over all of his rights to the bail bondsman.

That Bail Bondsman can give authority to the Bail Enforcement Agent to seize the defendant and arrest him as stated in Taylor -v- Taintor.

Again, I am not speaking from speculation but experience.

There is a difference between bail enforcement and the LEO just storming your home without a warrant.

Nutczak · Apr 5, 2010

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Big_Grumpy wrote:

Nutczak wrote:

WTF Grumpy?? Are you friggin serious?? This is not Nazi Germany, we are not required to carry our papers to prove we are free. I would be willing to bet every veteran who has lost their life fighting for our rights is rolling over in their grave right now with your statement.

If you are doing nothing illegal, why do you feel the cops should be able toharass people? What massive liberal indoctrination center did you get handed a degree from?

Click to expand...

Sorry, I'm about as anti liberal as you can get. I just see it as "common" sense. As I stated cops don't have a crystal ball to differentiate people that may pose animminent potential threat to the peace as opposed to someone who is carrying to exercise their right of self preservation.
How are they supposed to know unless they ask questions? Maybe the person has been drinking... maybe they have priors and aren't allowed to carry... maybe they're certifiably insane... Would you want someone like that carrying on YOUR street, unquestioned? Oh no... they're exercising their rights and people carrying guns should be left alone. Right.

No, I'll stand by my statement that I really would have no problem being questioned (not harassed) by an LEO trying to find out if you are legit and not someone who should not be carrying a firearm.

It doesn't HAVE to be us vs. them. By working WITH them I feel we will be more successful in our quest to further define gun laws than be unreasonable and thumb our noses at police whom I feel are trying to do their job.

Working with them??? Howdo you look atthe police stopping us for simply exercising our rights as working with us?
So where would you draw the line?

Do you feel a cop has thefull authority to question you about your choice of religion, your choice of candidates when going to the polls to vote?

The right to keep and bear arms is exactly what it says, these inherent rights are in the constitution to keep government (the police) from harassing people for legal fully behavior.

Would you consent to a search every time you went outside because you may just be carrying drugs, and think it is Ok for the cops to check you for drugs if they have no probable cause, or reasonable articulate suspicion?
? How about a body cavity search of your wife or daughter for no reason whatsoever other then to make sure she is legal and does not have something hidden in her vaginal cavity? How long would you tolerate that?

By willingly waiving your rights to privacyevery single time a cop approaches you, all you are doing is reinforcing that they can harass citizens anytime, and for any reason that they want.

As I stated cops don't have a crystal ball to differentiate people that may pose animminent potential threat to the peace as opposed to someone who is carrying to exercise their right of self preservation.

That is the exact reason they must first have probable cause, or reasonable articulate suspicion!
So we do not get harassed every single day of our lives!! That is what our founding fathers refused to tolerate in England and in the colonies whenwe were still under English rule.
They fought against the tyranny, and WE won! Why would you want this county to slide back into that era of tyranny by simply waiving your rights at every request and just dropping your pants and bending overevery time you are approached by a government entity who demands your papers??

How are they supposed to know unless they ask questions? Maybe the person has been drinking... maybe they have priors and aren't allowed to carry... maybe they're certifiably insane...

Click to expand...

Then they need to observe, if there is no probable cause to show these concerns of yours, then nothing should happen.

Imagine driving home from work, and being stopped every single day just to make sure you have your safety belt on, to make sure you are the registered owner of the car, to make sure you you are not intoxicated. Would you tolerate that? Driving is only a privilege, while the keeping and bearing of arms is a protected right!

Maybe someone else can explain this to you better? Lets try Benjamin Franklin to see if you understand him better.
"They who can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty nor safety.

There!! Now can you understand the entire basis of our constitution and why our god-given rights are cherished and should not be waived at any time?

By you waivingyour rights, you are spitting in the face of the founders of this country and the countless men and women who have sacrificed their lives in defense of our country!
Show them a little respect!! And in turn you may gain a little self-respect too.

Duty to identify

Campaign Veteran

Regular Member

Banned

Banned

Banned

Banned

Banned

Campaign Veteran

Regular Member

Regular Member

Campaign Veteran

Regular Member

Regular Member

Regular Member

Banned

Regular Member

Campaign Veteran

Regular Member

Banned

Regular Member