Handloads for defensive carry?

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I guess it boils down to what you are willing to stake your life on. I don't load (yet) so any handload I would carry would have to be supplied by someone else. For me, that's a non-starter so I only carry factory loads (currently Golden Sabers in .45, Hydra-Shoks in 9mm).

There are prosecutors out there who will seize on anything to make the eeeeeevil gun owner look bad - - I'm not one of them but I know the type. I once heard a Multnomah Co. (Portland, OR) ADA state that the number of shots fired would be enough for her to discount a self-defense claim and charge the shooter. Clearly someone who doesn't understand that you shoot until the threat stops (and, to my mind, one who shouldn't be making charging decisions). Just my $.02, FWIW.

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amlevin wrote:

sv_libertarian wrote:

AFAIK it was Ayoob who started the no handloads for defensive carry notion, for reasons much as you described. There have even been cases where prosecutors made an issue over factory hollowpoints and spare mags. Personally I carry factory ammo, but know others who carry handloads.

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Don't wish to challenge you directly but seriously, cases where prosecutors have made an issue???? [snip]

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As another member mentioned, hand-loads weren't specifically the issue but the caliber and type of bullet selected were the pivotal issue for the jury in the Harold Fish case in AZ. Fish was actually convicted of murder and is just now getting a new trial after some retroactive law changes were made.

In Fish's case the jury had a hard time accepting that his "10mm auto hollow-points" were "defensive" since they were "clearly designed to kill." Having a good attorney is the most important lesson we can get from the Fish case, but why leave any detail to chance? What harm can it do to carry factory "defense ammunition" as an added precaution?

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shad0wfax wrote:

As another member mentioned, hand-loads weren't specifically the issue but the caliber and type of bullet selected were the pivotal issue for the jury in the Harold Fish case in AZ. Fish was actually convicted of murder and is just now getting a new trial after some retroactive law changes were made.

In Fish's case the jury had a hard time accepting that his "10mm auto hollow-points" were "defensive" since they were "clearly designed to kill." Having a good attorney is the most important lesson we can get from the Fish case, but why leave any detail to chance? What harm can it do to carry factory "defense ammunition" as an added precaution?

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Seems rather dumass to me for anyone to actually make a statement like that. Can anyone really believe that there are bullets one would buy and carry that are not deadly? Throw a piece of lead at 850-1300 fps and it definitely is deadly. Yes, the hollow point is an enhancement. That's why Police Departments carry HP ammo.

The real issues with carrying a firearm and shooting it in self defense is not centered on the ammo but on the actual use of the gun itself. There are only two things that are in consideration. Were you justified, or were you not justified in your shooting. It doesn't matter at all what you shot after that. If you take apart the Daniel Fish case the only real issue was whether he was justified or not in shooting the dog owner. Based on the law in effect at the time, the jury found that he was not---period. The outcome would more likely than not have been the same if he was shooting a 38 special loaded with lead round nosed bullets.

It really doesn't make any sense to decry the carry of handloads when we then have discussions on why one should carry .45's "because they make nice big holes" and don't think a thing of it. Same for all the arguments that state "always carry a caliber that starts with a 4".

If you want to carry a handload then go for it. If you don't, then don't. All the inane remarks about Prosecutors etc, don't hold any water when it gets down to the facts.

FWIW, I still wonder where all the cases are (citations please, not urban legends) where handloads were even mentioned.

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My father, a 30-year retired police captain who feeds me tons and tons of his reloaded rounds, has explicitly told me to not only use factory rounds, but to drop them one at a time in the barrel weekly to make sure they're 100%. He also has told me at least bimonthly to shoot the defensive rounds and cycle another batch in.

So I do.

But if I had to roll with hand loads, I would roll with his, because I trust them.

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killchain wrote:

My father, a 30-year retired police captain who feeds me tons and tons of his reloaded rounds, has explicitly told me to not only use factory rounds, but to drop them one at a time in the barrel weekly to make sure they're 100%. He also has told me at least bimonthly to shoot the defensive rounds and cycle another batch in.

So I do.

But if I had to roll with hand loads, I would roll with his, because I trust them.

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:uhoh:

Ok, now that sounds just a little extreme to me (the bit about testing each round weekly).

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Metalhead47 wrote:

killchain wrote:

My father, a 30-year retired police captain who feeds me tons and tons of his reloaded rounds, has explicitly told me to not only use factory rounds, but to drop them one at a time in the barrel weekly to make sure they're 100%. He also has told me at least bimonthly to shoot the defensive rounds and cycle another batch in.

So I do.

But if I had to roll with hand loads, I would roll with his, because I trust them.

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:uhoh:

Ok, now that sounds just a little extreme to me (the bit about testing each round weekly).

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Weekly might be excessive, but when I'm rotating carry ammo (usually after a range session, when I'm cleaning the gun anyways) I'll take each of my carry rounds and drop it into the chamber of my bbl, to make sure it sits where it should. After that's confirmed, it comes out of the chamber and goes straight into the waiting magazine(s). I'd hate to find out that my 3rd Winchester Ranger round in the mag was ever-so-slightly deformed and would not chamber.... cuz guess what I'll be doing once I get to my third round in my carry gun's mag??? (not having time to check my ammo to make sure it will chamber....)

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If you look at these arguments it's fundamentally for those "grey" areas of "self defense" shootings that are a bit "iffy." By giving the prosecuting team a bit more "ammo" for their side isn't the best idea.

Meaning if you are ever in a situation to use your sidearm and the circumstances are let's a say questionable then they will ask more questions to bring to court and try to paint you as a extremist.

If on the other hand it's a clear cut self defense situation - let's say for example the shooting that occured a few years back. He was minding his own business and was suddenly attacked - pulled out his concealed pistol and defended himself.

http://soundpolitics.com/archives/007046.html

Clearly it was self defense - not soo many questions after.

Now, since one can never really plan for such situations of these types it's best or highly recommended to totally avoid such details. Meaning it's highly recommended you carry commercially available self defense ammunition (most often what your local LEO's use).

..... He also has told me at least bimonthly to shoot the defensive rounds and cycle another batch in.

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Lastly, weekly or monthlyis a bit excessive and not realistic for most of us that has to pay (if we had people giving us ammo.... that's another story). I highly recommend you cycle your self defense ammo a few months to at least once a year (just depends on how, where and frequently you carry). Also have to look at realistically how much you can afford. Practice ammo isn't cheap anymore..... so self defense ammo isn't any cheaper. How much andhow oftendo you actually shoot? You have to look at your own situation and what you feel will work for you. Generally 1 - 2 times a year is sufficient. Remember ammo kept in a cool dry storage can last longer than your lifetime. Carry ammo falls into more of a handling issue so the more you handle it (cycle it in your gun to chamber and unchamber) the better off you are to cycle it on a shorter basis.

So, with all that, you decide what is best for you. If you make your own handloads make sure you keep a sample load.

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oldkim wrote:

..... He also has told me at least bimonthly to shoot the defensive rounds and cycle another batch in.

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Lastly, weekly or monthlyis a bit excessive and not realistic for most of us that has to pay (if we had people giving us ammo.... that's another story). I highly recommend you cycle your self defense ammo a few months to at least once a year (just depends on how, where and frequently you carry). Also have to look at realistically how much you can afford. Practice ammo isn't cheap anymore..... so self defense ammo isn't any cheaper. How much andhow oftendo you actually shoot? You have to look at your own situation and what you feel will work for you. Generally 1 - 2 times a year is sufficient. Remember ammo kept in a cool dry storage can last longer than your lifetime. Carry ammo falls into more of a handling issue so the more you handle it (cycle it in your gun to chamber and unchamber) the better off you are to cycle it on a shorter basis.

So, with all that, you decide what is best for you. If you make your own handloads make sure you keep a sample load.

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Okay then, don't pay it and don't do it. I do.

And I go to the range roughly once a week. At least once every 10 days.

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I was at the range last Friday shooting some reloads with my XDm-40. I was testing for accuracy, and I had assembled these loads as carefully as possible (not that I don't take care with ALL my reloading!). For these, I had weighed the powder for each of the 20 rounds I was firing, rather than just using a volume powder measure. The sizing, primer seating, and so on was done with the same care.

The 14th round was a failure to load. It went in part way, but the slide didn't go into battery. The cartridge was in there tight! After some effort, I was able to eject the shell. I field-stripped the gun and dropped the cartridge into the barrel. It hung up, in spite of looking normal. The cases were once-fired from a friend's Glock, and I'm thinking the case somehow kept a bulge in spite of resizing.

I've often considered using my reloads as carry ammo. Legal considerations have been my main reason for not doing that. Still though, I'm one of the "church's worthy poor," so saving money on my carry ammo is important to me. But this experience shelves that idea. These were reloaded as carefully as I know how, and yet it was not enough to be reliable.

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Handloads can and some times do develop a slight bulge in the case wall when seating the bullet. I do not kow what causes this, but I do know that by using the Lee carbide seating die, the round is full length sized as the bullet is being seated, and again as the round is removed from the die. I have had cases bulge in the past 40 odd years that I have reloaded, but since I began using the Lee die I have never had one bulge. And that is for 17 different calibres that I load.

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There are many out there for or against using reloads or factory.

I am all for factory loads and use my reloads for practice and shoot my carry loads ever so often, if I could afford to shoot my carry loads every month I would.

One issue I have with reloads as I do not have the testing facility to ensure my loads and choice of bullet weight to expansion as the factories do and they have spent thousands of dollars developing their loads to be efficient and as of late the short barrel loads.

I have yet to have a miss fire, load or eject from Speer Gold Dot 165 Gr in 40 Cal but well I have to be honest I have with my reloads even though I weight each power load, use a case gauge, measure primer depth and OAL and I come up with Standard Deviation of 5.8 to 13.74

I have attended LFI-1 from Massad and his recommendation as to carrying factory loads I agree with, not so much that it is not a deciding point in appeals but that if you responded with in the law it can only help you in forensics as to what distance you were at, your loads were not hopped up to be more deadly, I know there is dead and only dead but we are talking about impressions from the Judge or Jury and that is important in itself.
Will it win the battle but from my view of trials there are many battles and each one is important and if you can bring doubt into the prosecutors case at any point is a good thing.

Carry what you like, I prefer Factory Loads all the way around.

Dave