View Poll Results: Civilian/LEO training VS. Military training

Voters
16. You may not vote on this poll
  • Civilian/LEO

    5 31.25%
  • Military

    6 37.50%
  • Both

    5 31.25%
Page 1 of 3 123 LastLast
Results 1 to 25 of 55

Thread: Civilian/LEO training vs Military Training.

  1. #1
    Banned
    Join Date
    Dec 2008
    Location
    Romulus/Wayne County, Michigan, USA
    Posts
    306

    Post imported post

    Recently I was in a discussion with one of our members in regards to firearms training. Just wanted to get a consenses of what people prefer.

  2. #2
    Regular Member Michigander's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2007
    Location
    Mulligan's Valley
    Posts
    4,830

    Post imported post

    I've done very little organized training, other than martial arts. Mostly my "training" has just been doing things like shoot/don't shoot drills, as well as shooting one handed with either hand, reloading with one hand, and doing all of this from different positions of cover. I've never really seen much need for anything further than that.

    Although, I do have tremendous respect for modern military tactics. I read what I think was the Marine scouting and patrolling manual. Very well thought out strategies.
    Answer every question about open carry in Michigan you ever had with one convenient and free book- http://libertyisforeveryone.com/open-carry-resources/

    The complete and utter truth can be challenged from every direction and it will always hold up. Accordingly there are few greater displays of illegitimacy than to attempt to impede free thought and communication.

  3. #3
    Campaign Veteran
    Join Date
    Nov 2008
    Location
    Ann Arbor, Michigan, USA
    Posts
    1,544

    Post imported post

    All of my training is civilian/LEO, because that's the type of scenario I am likely to encounter.

    Military style training doesn't do me much good for grocery getting at Meijer.

  4. #4
    Banned
    Join Date
    Dec 2008
    Location
    Romulus/Wayne County, Michigan, USA
    Posts
    306

    Post imported post

    Thats why I posted the thread. Personal choice/preferance is what I was looking for. Basicly the choice to take a defensive (Civilian/LEO) approach or an Offensive (Military) approach. The military doctrine is unwavering where civilian tactics are more likely to be adjusted. Thetraining of a hybridsystemto incorperate both offensive and defense posture's dependant oncertain situations is what I am interested in.



  5. #5
    Regular Member Evil Creamsicle's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2009
    Location
    Police State, USA
    Posts
    1,270

    Post imported post

    Well, based on that information I would opt for a defensive mindset, with offensive strategies.

    "the best defense is a good offense"

    basically, preserve yourself, and try to avoid the encounter, but if you have to drop him, drop him, and drop him fast and permanently.

  6. #6
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    Jan 2009
    Location
    Michigan, ,
    Posts
    25

    Post imported post

    So the question is what are differances?



    I have trained underand in all 3 types mentioned here.

    and can say this all the answers are way off so far.

    Evil is pretty darn close though..

  7. #7
    Banned
    Join Date
    Dec 2008
    Location
    Romulus/Wayne County, Michigan, USA
    Posts
    306

    Post imported post

    Ooopss misread your comment. Whats the difference? Commonly most Civilian/LEO is of a defensive posture.Most of the military tactics are offensive as written by the doctrine. Militarydoctrine isn't manipulated by personal preference. Civilian training is. Some offensive tactics have been introduced in recent years for LEO's.

    I haven't found many CPL trainers that host Offensive tactical training nor even use the word. Do you? Hmmm looks like it states Defensive on the website you promote...


    Someone that has had training in all the groups would/should know this difference. Especially a trainer.


    1980's 1970's &Vietnam era need not apply. This is in regards to this day &age training not what you learned "Back in the Day"

    Rock heads, Rerod, Green wire and duct tape need not apply.



  8. #8
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    Jan 2009
    Location
    Michigan, ,
    Posts
    25

    Post imported post

    wardog6d wrote:
    Ooopss misread your comment. Whats the difference? Commonly most Civilian/LEO is of a defensive posture.Most of the military tactics are offensive as written by the doctrine. Some offensive tactics have been introduced in recent years for LEO's.

    I havent found any CPL trainers that host Offensive tactical training nor even use the word. Do you? Hmmm looks like it states Defensive on the website you promote...


    Someone that has had training in all the groups would/should know this difference. Especially a trainer.


    1980's 1970's &vietnam era need not apply. This is in regards to this day &age training not what you learned "Back in the Day"

    Rock heads, Rerod, Green wire and duct tape need not apply.

    Not always true we have had and explained for the past 10+years how and when and why to go on the so called offensive a lot of defensive training is offenisve so to speak.
    My question is what are the differances in the training and techniques being taught.. since i have trained all the above and been trained by all the above.
    I would love to hear the other thoughts from those that haveACTUALLY trained or been trained inproper TTPs of all 3 named above?
    My website is a name the content of what we teach has been noted world wide actually andvery little differance between defensive and offensive
    the issue with CPL trainers are they arent trained alot of them, in real TTp
    or are they allowed to teach it or anything they could get yelled at for....un PC
    We teach people to be effective and efficent in the situations we train them for .

  9. #9
    Banned
    Join Date
    Dec 2008
    Location
    Romulus/Wayne County, Michigan, USA
    Posts
    306

    Post imported post

    RSF wrote:
    wardog6d wrote:
    Ooopss misread your comment. Whats the difference? Commonly most Civilian/LEO is of a defensive posture.Most of the military tactics are offensive as written by the doctrine. Some offensive tactics have been introduced in recent years for LEO's.

    I havent found any CPL trainers that host Offensive tactical training nor even use the word. Do you? Hmmm looks like it states Defensive on the website you promote...


    Someone that has had training in all the groups would/should know this difference. Especially a trainer.


    1980's 1970's &vietnam era need not apply. This is in regards to this day &age training not what you learned "Back in the Day"

    Rock heads, Rerod, Green wire and duct tape need not apply.

    Not always true we have had and explained for the past 10+years how and when and why to go on the so called offensive a lot of defensive training is offenisve so to speak.
    My question is what are the differances in the training and techniques being taught.. since i have trained all the above and been trained by all the above.
    I would love to hear the other thoughts from those that have actually trained or been trained inproper TTPs of all 3
    My website is a name the content of what we teach has been noted world wide actually andvery little differance between defensive and offensive
    I disagree there is a huge difference between being taught to retreat and to advance. Being taught to move to any available cover or to advance to cover is a big difference. Retreat=Defensive Advance=Offensive....Most trainers dont know the difference which is evident in your own statement.

  10. #10
    Banned
    Join Date
    Dec 2008
    Location
    Romulus/Wayne County, Michigan, USA
    Posts
    306

    Post imported post

    Even basic stances are different. From Civilian to Military. Which is a total lack of commitment to positive reenforcement of the long arm tactical configurations. KISS is not recognized by civilians trainers. Hi-speed low drag is coeffiecientfor real world situations.



    Civilian trainers expect there student to transition from one type stance to another between various weapons this in my opinion is a lack of basic control of two seperate weapons.

  11. #11
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    Jan 2009
    Location
    Michigan, ,
    Posts
    25

    Post imported post

    really what and where have you trained? and with whom.

    Ill lay my list out

    T1G(all current former DELTA And marine MEUSOC or RECON

    Larry Vickers DELTA

    10-8 SRT swat guys

    Dave harrington Special forced and lead instructor at JFKwarfare center

    there is my partial list i have about 5 more pages of that @#$% i can add in including the instructor schools as well.

    I know the diffeance and the MINDSET and what i teach and have been taught

    you arent really getting it. whom teaches retreating> and falling back vs forward agressive movement have you trained with me? have you know anyone that has?



    really what stance? are different

    since we teach more aggresive action than whatyou think you know you are way off judging without knowing again what is your training background and whom and when were.

  12. #12
    Regular Member Michigander's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2007
    Location
    Mulligan's Valley
    Posts
    4,830

    Post imported post

    RSF wrote:
    and can say this all the answers are way off so far.

    Evil is pretty darn close though..
    A- The thread topic is vague, was kind of hard to figure out the point.

    B- I see almost nothing the handgun classes on your home page list doing that I don't already do in my own practice.

    C- I have known Evil for many years, and taught him much of what he knows.

    And by the way, why is it you guys don't like Serpa's?
    Answer every question about open carry in Michigan you ever had with one convenient and free book- http://libertyisforeveryone.com/open-carry-resources/

    The complete and utter truth can be challenged from every direction and it will always hold up. Accordingly there are few greater displays of illegitimacy than to attempt to impede free thought and communication.

  13. #13
    Regular Member autosurgeon's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2008
    Location
    Lawrence, Michigan, United States
    Posts
    3,845

    Post imported post

    BC if you hook your finger when drawing you can ND.
    Anything I post may be my opinion and not the law... you are responsible to do your own verification.

    Blackstone (1753-1765) maintains that "the law holds that it is better that ten guilty persons escape than that one innocent suffer."

  14. #14
    Regular Member Michigander's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2007
    Location
    Mulligan's Valley
    Posts
    4,830

    Post imported post

    autosurgeon wrote:
    BC if you hook your finger when drawing you can ND.
    Are there verified cases of experienced people doing that?

    I prefer Safariland hood holsters, but that never struck me as being much of an issue when I've tried Serpas out.
    Answer every question about open carry in Michigan you ever had with one convenient and free book- http://libertyisforeveryone.com/open-carry-resources/

    The complete and utter truth can be challenged from every direction and it will always hold up. Accordingly there are few greater displays of illegitimacy than to attempt to impede free thought and communication.

  15. #15
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    May 2006
    Location
    Burton, Michigan
    Posts
    3,361

    Post imported post

    The same thing can easily be done on my Blade-Tech, plus I have that friggn' retention strap to contend with...the one that doesn't work as advertised after you've had it for a day or two.

  16. #16
    Regular Member eastmeyers's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2008
    Location
    Hazel Park, Michigan, USA
    Posts
    1,383

    Post imported post

    All I know is that the training I got in the Corps has saved my ass, more than once, plus I always win at laser tag.

    God Bless

    Semper Fi
    "Bam, I like saying bam when I cite something, in fact I think I shall do this from here on out, as long as I remember.
    Bam!" - eastmeyers

    "Then said he to them, But now he that hath a purse, let him take it, and likewise his sack: and he that hath no sword, let him sell his garment, and buy one."
    Luke 22:36
    God Bless

  17. #17
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    Jan 2009
    Location
    Michigan, ,
    Posts
    25

    Post imported post

    Michigander wrote:
    RSF wrote:
    and can say this all the answers are way off so far.

    Evil is pretty darn close though..
    A- The thread topic is vague, was kind of hard to figure out the point.

    B- I see almost nothing the handgun classes on your home page list doing that I don't already do in my own practice.

    C- I have known Evil for many years, and taught him much of what he knows.

    And by the way, why is it you guys don't like Serpa's?
    A correct thats why i asked
    B really how do you know your doing it right or it can be improved on and how does it work under stress and pressure i have alot of training and practice time yet i still go and do so ? glad your up to speed.
    Who taught you? to teach him?
    serpas LOL well let see we have seen no less than 3 NDs with them in various classes i have personally witnessed 1 GSW from them as well as having 4 documneted casses that i can personally verify of malfucntioning holsters locking guns in place, as well as ripping one apart in weapons retion class and breaking the paddle from the body.. plus many other cases i have heard from very reputable people
    and per our insurance carrier and others that i trust and have trained with its a nogo ... if a person really want to use there serpa then so be it they sign an extra waiver after being instructed on its use once again and a witness to that fact. so on and so on...
    since one has offerd up any of there training history so be it no sweat enjoy guys. im done here.

  18. #18
    Regular Member autosurgeon's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2008
    Location
    Lawrence, Michigan, United States
    Posts
    3,845

    Post imported post

    Michigander wrote:
    autosurgeon wrote:
    BC if you hook your finger when drawing you can ND.
    Are there verified cases of experienced people doing that?

    I prefer Safariland hood holsters, but that never struck me as being much of an issue when I've tried Serpas out.
    According to RSF there are... I don't have one myself just tellin ya what he has said.
    Anything I post may be my opinion and not the law... you are responsible to do your own verification.

    Blackstone (1753-1765) maintains that "the law holds that it is better that ten guilty persons escape than that one innocent suffer."

  19. #19
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    Jan 2009
    Location
    Michigan, ,
    Posts
    25

    Post imported post

    we have seen it we have pictures we have police reports. pretty simple everybody says its trigger finger yadda yadda

    when some of those same people were pressed they failed one of the ND's was a regular Idpa shooter whom had his oops



    there is a differance between range practice and training to save your ass.

  20. #20
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    May 2006
    Location
    Burton, Michigan
    Posts
    3,361

    Post imported post

    Well when you think about it, is there really such a thing as a fool-proof holster and fool-proof gun owner? As far as durability, I haven't seen a holster that can not be ripped apart ifthe determination is present.

  21. #21
    Banned
    Join Date
    Dec 2008
    Location
    Romulus/Wayne County, Michigan, USA
    Posts
    306

    Post imported post

    RSF wrote:
    really what and where have you trained? and with whom.

    Ill lay my list out

    T1G(all current former DELTA And marine MEUSOC or RECON

    Larry Vickers DELTA

    10-8 SRT swat guys

    Dave harrington Special forced and lead instructor at JFKwarfare center

    there is my partial list i have about 5 more pages of that @#$% i can add in including the instructor schools as well.

    I know the diffeance and the MINDSET and what i teach and have been taught

    you arent really getting it. whom teaches retreating> and falling back vs forward agressive movement have you trained with me? have you know anyone that has?



    really what stance? are different

    since we teach more aggresive action than whatyou think you know you are way off judging without knowing again what is your training background and whom and when were.
    Falling back/ aggressive movement left to right. Even non movement is a defensive posture.

    Dropping names and unproven unriable personal training does nothing but corrupt your own training misleadings.

  22. #22
    Banned
    Join Date
    Dec 2008
    Location
    Romulus/Wayne County, Michigan, USA
    Posts
    306

    Post imported post

    From my personal stand point I do not need to know or really care what training you think you may have or say that you have.

    Proof is in the puddin. Puddin...

    As for any training I may or may not have, I am not the type of person to gloat as this is not an interview. I do not see the need to provide individual training one may have recieved. However if your look to correct your personal training programs I am availablefor hire.

  23. #23
    Regular Member Michigander's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2007
    Location
    Mulligan's Valley
    Posts
    4,830

    Post imported post

    RSF wrote:
    B really how do you know your doing it right or it can be improved on and how does it work under stress and pressure i have alot of training and practice time yet i still go and do so ? glad your up to speed.
    Who taught you? to teach him?
    I agree with wardog. Dropping names and claimed skills really doesn't mean much.

    The topic is about what kind of training people like. Not a bragging contest.
    Answer every question about open carry in Michigan you ever had with one convenient and free book- http://libertyisforeveryone.com/open-carry-resources/

    The complete and utter truth can be challenged from every direction and it will always hold up. Accordingly there are few greater displays of illegitimacy than to attempt to impede free thought and communication.

  24. #24
    Regular Member dougwg's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2007
    Location
    MOC Charter Member Westland, Michigan, USA
    Posts
    2,445

    Post imported post

    Wardog and Michigander,

    I'd bet my life that he has forgotten more about self defense shooting then the three of us combined know.

    Both of you would do VERY well if you closed your mouths and listened to RSF (Steve Fisher)



  25. #25
    Banned
    Join Date
    Dec 2008
    Location
    Romulus/Wayne County, Michigan, USA
    Posts
    306

    Post imported post

    dougwg wrote:
    Wardog and Michigander,

    I'd bet my life that he has forgotten more about self defense shooting then the three of us combined.

    Both of you would do VERY well if you closed your mouths and listened to RSF (Steve Fisher)

    Cool thanks for the advice. Your opinion is noted. Just wondering are the flashlights mounted on the glocks considered by this trainer as life saving devices?

Page 1 of 3 123 LastLast

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •