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Thread: PC 626 and 626.9

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    Regular Member PincheOgro1's Avatar
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    I have been reading CFL and Penal Codes since I bought my gun in November. Everything I have read up tiill now I understand, but with this chapter, I need someone to help me understand the numbering, wording.

    PC 626 (c) (2)

    "Safe school zone" means an area that encompasses any of the following places during regular school hours or within 60 minutes before or after the school day or 60 minutes before or after a school-sponsored activity at the school site:

    (A) Within 100 feet of a bus stop, whether or not a public transit bus stop, that has been publicly designated by the school district as a school bus stop. This definition applies only if the school district has chosen to mark the bus stop as a school bus stop.

    (B) Within 1,500 feet of a school, as designated by the school district.



    PC 626.9 (e) (1)

    "School zone" means an area in, or on the grounds of, apublic or private school providing instruction in kindergarten or grades 1 to 12, inclusive, or within a distance of 1,000 feetfrom the grounds of the public or private school.

    does the wording "providing instruction" mean the same thing as "during school hours"?

    Why is there a difference in definition? PC 626 seems like a more common sense law, but PC 626.9 makes no sense. No time frame. Does this mean a person can be charged with a 626.9 violation any time , day or night, whether the school is open or closed?Why would it matter, if it was after hours. No children, no school, no teachers. I'd hate to be walking around at night with my wife and get arrested for a 626.9 violation when no school is open.

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    I have mentioned the "providing instruction" thing before,

    To me, it does mean while school is in session. If the school is out for the day, or on a weekend, no one is "providing instruction" I see it has a key describtion in the 626.9 PC.


    And it makes no sense to protect the children, or have the law for the children s safety, when children are not present. Just like its only 25mph in a school zone, while children are present... not 24/7/365



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    It is a dangerous game to play. If you get charged you could be facing at least 10 year firearms prohibition and, as a felony wobbler the DA might just go for the jugular.

    Carry safe.

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    My interpretation of the "providing instruction" is that it is meant to clarify the grade level. Simply a more flowery way of saying "K-12 public or private school" as opposed to, say, a trade school.

    The legislative intent here is crystal clear. The legislature is saying that anyone who possesses a firearm is a threat to public safety. That whole subsection of 626, like 12031 is based on that false premise.

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    Regular Member PincheOgro1's Avatar
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    oops

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    Regular Member PincheOgro1's Avatar
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    Theseus wrote:
    It is a dangerous game to play. If you get charged you could be facing at least 10 year firearms prohibition and, as a felony wobbler the DA might just go for the jugular.

    Carry safe.
    Sir,

    I have no intention of OCing any where near a school, until I get clarification on the wording of PC 626.9. PC 626 defines a school zone "during school hours". PC 626.9 does not. I have heard of your problems, and I really feel for ya. I have been checking for schools in my area with 2 websites to make sure I am no where near a school. The only problem I have is/are "school bus stops". you can't be within 100 feet of those, as per PC 626. I have a bus stop on the street right behind my house. Either way, I have been transporting in complianceto 12026.1, .2. just to be sure. I like to OC, but it sure is a hassle.

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    Regular Member PincheOgro1's Avatar
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    camsoup wrote:
    I have mentioned the "providing instruction" thing before,

    To me, it does mean while school is in session. If the school is out for the day, or on a weekend, no one is "providing instruction" I see it has a key describtion in the 626.9 PC.


    And it makes no sense to protect the children, or have the law for the children s safety, when children are not present. Just like its only 25mph in a school zone, while children are present... not 24/7/365

    THIS is exactly what I think.

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    Regular Member PincheOgro1's Avatar
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    Diesel-n-Lead wrote:
    My interpretation of the "providing instruction" is that it is meant to clarify the grade level. Simply a more flowery way of saying "K-12 public or private school" as opposed to, say, a trade school.

    The legislative intent here is crystal clear. The legislature is saying that anyone who possesses a firearm is a threat to public safety. That whole subsection of 626, like 12031 is based on that false premise.
    PC 626.9 does state public or private, and the grade levels "inclusive". The terminology of "providing instruction" still is questionable. See "camsoup's" post below, er... above.

    I agree with you on your 2nd paragraph though. Don't cars kill more people yearly than guns do ?

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    Regular Member Gundude's Avatar
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    IANAL but here is how I read the 626 school thingy.

    This part defines a "school"

    626 (4) "School" means any elementary school, junior high school,
    four-year high school, senior high school, adult school or any branch
    thereof, opportunity school, continuation high school, regional
    occupational center, evening high school, or technical school or any
    public right-of-way situated immediately adjacent to school property
    or any other place if a teacher and one or more pupils are required
    to be at that place in connection with assigned school activities.

    This defines what and when it's a "safe school zone" and a "safe bus stop".

    626 (c)(2) "Safe school zone" means an area that encompasses any of the
    following places during regular school hours or within 60 minutes
    before or after the schoolday or 60 minutes before or after a
    school-sponsored activity at the schoolsite:
    (A) Within 100 feet of a bus stop, whether or not a public transit
    bus stop, that has been publicly designated by the school district
    as a schoolbus stop. This definition applies only if the school
    district has chosen to mark the bus stop as a schoolbus stop.

    626.9 defines what you can andcan't do in a "safe school zone" pertaining to weapons.

    Please correct me if I'm wrong.



    A citizen may not be required to offer a ―good and substantial reason-- why he should be permitted to exercise his rights. The right‘s existence is all the reason he needs.

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    Regular Member PincheOgro1's Avatar
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    Gundude wrote:
    IANAL but here is how I read the 626 school thingy.

    This part defines a "school"

    626 (4) "School" means any elementary school, junior high school,
    four-year high school, senior high school, adult school or any branch
    thereof, opportunity school, continuation high school, regional
    occupational center, evening high school, or technical school or any
    public right-of-way situated immediately adjacent to school property
    or any other place if a teacher and one or more pupils are required
    to be at that place in connection with assigned school activities.

    This defines what and when it's a "safe school zone" and a "safe bus stop".

    626 (c) (2) "Safe school zone" means an area that encompasses any of the
    following places during regular school hours or within 60 minutes
    before or after the schoolday or 60 minutes before or after a
    school-sponsored activity at the schoolsite:
    (A) Within 100 feet of a bus stop, whether or not a public transit
    bus stop, that has been publicly designated by the school district
    as a schoolbus stop. This definition applies only if the school
    district has chosen to mark the bus stop as a schoolbus stop.

    626.9 defines what you can andcan't do in a "safe school zone" pertaining to weapons.

    Please correct me if I'm wrong.


    Gun,

    you just repeated the PC. The question here is, according to PC 626 it's only valid during school hours. PC 626.9 doesn't state such, but to me and others the terminology "providing instruction", implies "during school hours". This is thedebate.

    I wish we could get a lawyers opinion on this, or a court ruling. Set precedence.

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    Can we not carry within 100' of a bus stop either!?

    See, its LEGAL to carry a gun in CA... they just make it nearly impossible to NOT break any laws!

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    PincheOgro1 wrote:
    Gundude wrote:
    IANAL but here is how I read the 626 school thingy.

    This part defines a "school"

    626 (4) "School" means any elementary school, junior high school,
    four-year high school, senior high school, adult school or any branch
    thereof, opportunity school, continuation high school, regional
    occupational center, evening high school, or technical school or any
    public right-of-way situated immediately adjacent to school property
    or any other place if a teacher and one or more pupils are required
    to be at that place in connection with assigned school activities.

    This defines what and when it's a "safe school zone" and a "safe bus stop".

    626 (c) (2) "Safe school zone" means an area that encompasses any of the
    following places during regular school hours or within 60 minutes
    before or after the schoolday or 60 minutes before or after a
    school-sponsored activity at the schoolsite:
    (A) Within 100 feet of a bus stop, whether or not a public transit
    bus stop, that has been publicly designated by the school district
    as a schoolbus stop. This definition applies only if the school
    district has chosen to mark the bus stop as a schoolbus stop.

    626.9 defines what you can andcan't do in a "safe school zone" pertaining to weapons.

    Please correct me if I'm wrong.


    Gun,

    you just repeated the PC. The question here is, according to PC 626 it's only valid during school hours. PC 626.9 doesn't state such, but to me and others the terminology "providing instruction", implies "during school hours". This is thedebate.

    I wish we could get a lawyers opinion on this, or a court ruling. Set precedence.
    If they state something in 626 (c) (4), why would they repeat it in 626.9. That would be redundant. 626 (c) (4) says what a safe zone is and when its a safe school zone, and 626.9 says what you can and can't do in that zone. I don't understand what the debate is about.
    A citizen may not be required to offer a ―good and substantial reason-- why he should be permitted to exercise his rights. The right‘s existence is all the reason he needs.

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    Regular Member Gundude's Avatar
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    b1ack5mith wrote:
    Can we not carry within 100' of a bus stop either!?

    See, its LEGAL to carry a gun in CA... they just make it nearly impossible to NOT break any laws!
    It seems that what they tried to do. I lock up my weapon till I get to my destination, and then arm myself.
    A citizen may not be required to offer a ―good and substantial reason-- why he should be permitted to exercise his rights. The right‘s existence is all the reason he needs.

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    Regular Member mjones's Avatar
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    626 and 626.9 are separate sections of the penal code.

    The definitions used in each only apllicable to the section they reside in unless stated otherwise. The definitions are entirely separate from one another.

    The numbering scheme can be confusing until you get used to it.

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    Regular Member PincheOgro1's Avatar
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    mjones wrote:
    626 and 626.9 are separate sections of the penal code.

    The definitions used in each only apllicable to the section they reside in unless stated otherwise. The definitions are entirely separate from one another.

    The numbering scheme can be confusing until you get used to it.
    I Understand the seperation of the defininitions. each to its seperate section. The question is what does the PC 626.9 (e) (1) terminology "providing instruction" infer. Does it, can it, could it mean "during school hours". as stated in PC 626 (c) (2). as stated above by "camsoup". If the school is closed, (after hours) then there is no one providing instruction to anyone !

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    Arguably the reason they didn't say school hours is because the schools may still be providing instruction outside of those hours. . . say a school play or rehearsal?

    I do agree that your interpretation has merit, but like I said, it is a dangerous game. Even in my case a word so plain in meaning as private property was stretched and bastardized enough to get a conviction. If they can twist the plain meaning of such a word without merit what do you suppose would happen to your interpretation?

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    Regular Member mjones's Avatar
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    PincheOgro1 wrote:
    mjones wrote:
    626 and 626.9 are separate sections of the penal code.

    The definitions used in each only apllicable to the section they reside in unless stated otherwise. The definitions are entirely separate from one another.

    The numbering scheme can be confusing until you get used to it.
    I Understand the seperation of the defininitions. each to its seperate section. The question is what does the PC 626.9 (e) (1) terminology "providing instruction" infer. Does it, can it, could it mean "during school hours". as stated in PC 626 (c) (2). as stated above by "camsoup". If the school is closed, (after hours) then there is no one providing instruction to anyone !
    I think the wording is an attempt, albeit apoor one, to distinguish 'active' schools from 'closed' schools. Closed as in 'no longer used to provide instruction'


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    Theseus wrote:
    Arguably the reason they didn't say school hours is because the schools may still be providing instruction outside of those hours. . . say a school play or rehearsal?

    I do agree that your interpretation has merit, but like I said, it is a dangerous game. Even in my case a word so plain in meaning as private property was stretched and bastardized enough to get a conviction. If they can twist the plain meaning of such a word without merit what do you suppose would happen to your interpretation?
    Not even a stretch, bastardization, or twist. Pretty clear the government believes they own everything, and there is no such thing as private property, it's all public. Even your own body is public.

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    Regular Member PincheOgro1's Avatar
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    Gundude wrote:
    b1ack5mith wrote:
    Can we not carry within 100' of a bus stop either!?

    See, its LEGAL to carry a gun in CA... they just make it nearly impossible to NOT break any laws!
    It seems that what they tried to do. I lock up my weapon till I get to my destination, and then arm myself.
    Sir PC 626 states that you cannot be within 100 ft of a school bus stop carrying "during school hours", but PC 626.9 does not mention bus stops, only schools.

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    PincheOgro1 wrote:
    Gundude wrote:
    b1ack5mith wrote:
    Can we not carry within 100' of a bus stop either!?

    See, its LEGAL to carry a gun in CA... they just make it nearly impossible to NOT break any laws!
    It seems that what they tried to do. I lock up my weapon till I get to my destination, and then arm myself.
    Sir PC 626 states that you cannot be within 100 ft of a school bus stop carrying "during school hours", but PC 626.9 does not mention bus stops, only schools.
    626 doesn't mention anything about carrying. It only defines what a "safe school zone" is.

    626.9 is the gun free zone

  21. #21
    Regular Member PincheOgro1's Avatar
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    camsoup wrote:
    PincheOgro1 wrote:
    Gundude wrote:
    b1ack5mith wrote:
    Can we not carry within 100' of a bus stop either!?

    See, its LEGAL to carry a gun in CA... they just make it nearly impossible to NOT break any laws!
    It seems that what they tried to do. I lock up my weapon till I get to my destination, and then arm myself.
    Sir PC 626 states that you cannot be within 100 ft of a school bus stop carrying "during school hours", but PC 626.9 does not mention bus stops, only schools.
    626 doesn't mention anything about carrying. It only defines what a "safe school zone" is.

    626.9 is the gun free zone
    yeah, you're right. But why do they even bother to define anything in PC 626. It is not used anywhere else in the section, other than in the definition?

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    PincheOgro1 wrote:
    camsoup wrote:
    PincheOgro1 wrote:
    Gundude wrote:
    b1ack5mith wrote:
    Can we not carry within 100' of a bus stop either!?

    See, its LEGAL to carry a gun in CA... they just make it nearly impossible to NOT break any laws!
    It seems that what they tried to do. I lock up my weapon till I get to my destination, and then arm myself.
    Sir PC 626 states that you cannot be within 100 ft of a school bus stop carrying "during school hours", but PC 626.9 does not mention bus stops, only schools.
    626 doesn't mention anything about carrying. It only defines what a "safe school zone" is.

    626.9 is the gun free zone
    yeah, you're right. But why do they even bother to define anything in PC 626. It is not used anywhere else in the section, other than in the definition?
    Pertaining to the School bus stop provision, note that the code requires that it be both designated by the school district and marked as such:
    Code:
    626(c)(2)(A) Within 100 feet of a bus stop, whether or not a public transit
    bus stop, that has been publicly designated by the school district
    as a schoolbus stop. This definition applies only if the school
    district has chosen to mark the bus stop as a schoolbus stop.
    As for 626(c) [where the safe school zone definition is contained] this is merely a definitions section to simplify the wording of other parts of the section.
    Code:
    626(c) As used in this code, the following definitions apply:
    With the "providing instruction" part, I have to say that I strongly believe it is just flowery language. If it were meant to qualify a time period or schedule, it would say "while providing instruction" or "during the time it is providing instruction" as it does in 626(c)(2). Also note that if they were referencing 626(c)(2) in 626.9 the distance would be 1500ft. from the school and not the 1000ft. Albeit only during school hours.


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    IANAL, but I'll give you some lawyer-like advice:

    Read People v Overturf. Carefully reread how they disect the legislature's intent and the how different "possess" and "carry" are in the court's eyes.

    Now reread 626 and 626.9.

    Now imagine how the Overturf court would have a field day with legislative intent and definitions of words.

    And then imagine whether you would even be able to get to appeal after what will almost certainly be a conviction at trial court...

    And for the record, while I disagree with the law, I think it's abundantly clear what the legislature intended here. After all, why wouldn't theyuse the exact same (or at least highly similar) wording if they intended to convey the exact same idea?

    Your only hope is that one juror will be liberty-minded enough to hang the jury and get you a mistrial.
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    Regular Member PincheOgro1's Avatar
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    camsoup wrote:
    PincheOgro1 wrote:
    Gundude wrote:
    b1ack5mith wrote:
    Can we not carry within 100' of a bus stop either!?

    See, its LEGAL to carry a gun in CA... they just make it nearly impossible to NOT break any laws!
    It seems that what they tried to do. I lock up my weapon till I get to my destination, and then arm myself.
    Sir PC 626 states that you cannot be within 100 ft of a school bus stop carrying "during school hours", but PC 626.9 does not mention bus stops, only schools.
    626 doesn't mention anything about carrying. It only defines what a "safe school zone" is.

    626.9 is the gun free zone
    That is another confusion of mine. PC 626 only defines, but if you look, I don't think the terms defined in PC626 are used anywhere else in the Chapter. (PC626-PC626.11)

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    You guysand nowonder why that's came fromJohn D. Williams' memoofLACSD was an error forCPC 626.9.
    http://www.californiaopencarry.org/memos/LASD_oc_memo.pdf

    In good old days, when a kids isn't gotten trouble from school and the "Chief administrative officer"(CPC626(a)(5)(A)&(B) definitions)have no jurisdiction outside of university or college or school groundby theirpolicies and rules before them.

    CPC 626 changed that to allowing theChief administrative officer to dealing with these wise kids within 1500' of "Safe School Zone".

    However, the UOCer's student outsideof university or college can be expelledunder thesafe school zone unless it is with the written permission of the university or college president, his or her designee, or equivalent university or college authority.

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