Results 1 to 16 of 16

Thread: Firearms Liability & Businesses

  1. #1
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    Jun 2009
    Location
    Las Vegas, NV
    Posts
    1,140

    Post imported post

    Spoke to a friend here in AZ who has a restaurant. He received a letter from his insurance company that says that they will now require unless there is specific insurance to cover it, that his business have a no-firearms sign. It will almost double his insurance if he wants to get around that.

    He is a supporter of OC (illegal in alcohol restaurants in AZ) but he can not afford the insurance premium, so he is shopping around.

    I imagine the BradyBunch is behind some insurance companies doing this, and perhaps they will push more. We need to find a way to support pro-2a businesses, so that if they chose to make this decision, they wont go out of business. Insurance in running a restaurant can often be 1/4-1/2 of your costs, imagine if its doubled?

    Thoughts?

  2. #2
    Founder's Club Member
    Join Date
    Nov 2009
    Location
    Greensboro, North Carolina, USA
    Posts
    1,052

    Post imported post

    That is just deplorable.

    Regardless of anti-gun organizations being behind this, it seems like a money-grubbing thing as well for the insurance companies. I would like to make the argument that liability would/should be higher if there is no one capable of defending the establishment from a Luby's Cafeteria style assault. Imagine the insurance that would need to be paid out if something like that went down. Of course, I have a feeling that insurance companies would find a way of avoiding payment or at least paying out "too much" to fix a place back up and to cover injuries and death sustained by victims including emotional problems.

  3. #3
    Regular Member bigdaddy1's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2009
    Location
    Southsider der hey
    Posts
    1,320

    Post imported post

    Have him ask his insurance if they would cover my suing him because I was robbed or harmed while in is business because he couldn't allow me to defend myself?

    I also question if it would be legal for an insurance company to make this rule. There must be some governing agency that he can check with.


    What part of "shall not be infringed" don't you understand?

  4. #4
    McX
    Guest

    Post imported post

    i was questioned by my insurance company when they saw our shop's posted policy of oc allowed. they seemed more interested in my firearm than anything else. the policy was approved, even though i delcined to answer questions.

  5. #5
    Regular Member t33j's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2009
    Location
    King George, VA
    Posts
    1,384

    Post imported post

    Aren't insurance costs supposed to be based on some statistical data?

    When/if he ditches them, make sure the insurance company knows why.
    Sic Semper Tyrannis

  6. #6
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    Jun 2009
    Location
    Las Vegas, NV
    Posts
    1,140

    Post imported post

    Well, in many gun shops, they require guns to be unloaded also -- I know several in nevada, because their insurance requires them to be!

    tekshogun wrote:
    That is just deplorable.

  7. #7
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    Jun 2009
    Location
    Las Vegas, NV
    Posts
    1,140

    Post imported post

    Of course its legal, an insurance company can put almost any requirement, unfortunately.

    bigdaddy1 wrote:
    Have him ask his insurance if they would cover my suing him because I was robbed or harmed while in is business because he couldn't allow me to defend myself?

    I also question if it would be legal for an insurance company to make this rule. There must be some governing agency that he can check with.


  8. #8
    Founder's Club Member
    Join Date
    Nov 2009
    Location
    Greensboro, North Carolina, USA
    Posts
    1,052

    Post imported post

    Pace wrote:
    Well, in many gun shops, they require guns to be unloaded also -- I know several in nevada, because their insurance requires them to be!

    tekshogun wrote:
    That is just deplorable.
    Well, this is true. It is not always clear as to WHY this is the case. Some say for liability reasons, are simply for safety reasons, if you don't like it, get out of their store. My local gun range does not require any weapon be unloaded in their lobby, just that they be holstered or secured in some fashion. Other gun shops in my area operate on a similar basis. The operators of these facilities are typically well armed to handle an assailant anyway, but no insurance companies are obviously scaring them into restricting how people can carry. Gander Mountain is an example of a corporate entity that seems to sometimes have restrictions (I don't know about nationwide but the one in my immediate area is not friendly to open carry in general).

    Pace wrote:
    Of course its legal, an insurance company can put almost any requirement, unfortunately.
    As a matter of fact. Some states have very strict guidelines on how insurance can operate and prevent these companies from being sharks. In 1899, North Carolina's General Assembly created a Department of Insurance for this very reason amongst many others. Sure, lobbyist can creep in and change the system, but it is the same avenue concerned citizens, watch groups, and even politicians can use to keep money-grubbing insurance companies from taking advantage of people and their businesses.

  9. #9
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    Jun 2009
    Location
    Las Vegas, NV
    Posts
    1,140

    Post imported post

    I've similarly been confused at gun shows about no guns.

  10. #10
    Founder's Club Member
    Join Date
    Nov 2009
    Location
    Greensboro, North Carolina, USA
    Posts
    1,052

    Post imported post

    Pace wrote:
    I've similarly been confused at gun shows about no guns.
    Yes, gun shows, I love them, but they are one strange beast. I hope they continue on forever without further restriction.

  11. #11
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    Oct 2008
    Location
    Murrysville, Pennsylvania, USA
    Posts
    52

    Post imported post

    tekshogun wrote:
    Pace wrote:
    Well, in many gun shops, they require guns to be unloaded also -- I know several in nevada, because their insurance requires them to be!

    tekshogun wrote:
    That is just deplorable.
    Well, this is true. It is not always clear as to WHY this is the case. Some say for liability reasons, are simply for safety reasons, if you don't like it, get out of their store. My local gun range does not require any weapon be unloaded in their lobby, just that they be holstered or secured in some fashion. Other gun shops in my area operate on a similar basis. The operators of these facilities are typically well armed to handle an assailant anyway, but no insurance companies are obviously scaring them into restricting how people can carry. Gander Mountain is an example of a corporate entity that seems to sometimes have restrictions (I don't know about nationwide but the one in my immediate area is not friendly to open carry in general).

    Pace wrote:
    Of course its legal, an insurance company can put almost any requirement, unfortunately.
    As a matter of fact. Some states have very strict guidelines on how insurance can operate and prevent these companies from being sharks. In 1899, North Carolina's General Assembly created a Department of Insurance for this very reason amongst many others. Sure, lobbyist can creep in and change the system, but it is the same avenue concerned citizens, watch groups, and even politicians can use to keep money-grubbing insurance companies from taking advantage of people and their businesses.

    Just an FYI, i had Gander Mountain Change their Policy on Open Carry and how the signage reads.

    here is the thread that got this policy change:

    http://forum.pafoa.org/general-2/792...page-14-a.html


    thier new signs are black with a Stop sign on them. at the bottom it clearly states OC is allowed if the state allows it.

  12. #12
    Founder's Club Member
    Join Date
    Nov 2009
    Location
    Greensboro, North Carolina, USA
    Posts
    1,052

    Post imported post

    I am going to my local Gander Mtn to purchase a new retention holster (I was dumb enough before I joined this site to buy one without retention...) so I will be looking for those signs.

  13. #13
    Founder's Club Member Brass Magnet's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2009
    Location
    Right Behind You!, Wisconsin, USA
    Posts
    2,818

    Post imported post

    How about putting the sign up and just not enforcing it? The insurance company didn't say anything about that right? AFAIK, you still must ask the patron to leave even if the patron disregarded the sign right?

    After a while, the normal patrons will know it's just for show. Kind of speak no evil, hear no evil, see no evil. Guy has a gun? You didn't see anything.
    R[ƎVO˩]UTION

    ΜΟΛΩΝ ΛΑΒΕ

    Lex malla, lex nulla

  14. #14
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    Jan 2010
    Location
    SLC, Utah, USA
    Posts
    144

    Post imported post

    IMO, states need to follow what Utah is doing and pass laws that protectbusinesses from these stupid insurance companies and lawsuits...

    Utah is in the process of passinga law that says, ifa business allows CFP holders to carry guns on their property and into their businesses, they cannot be held liable for any resulting actions of that (shooting, firearm discharges, etc).

    When this law passes, it will make businesses more likely to allow weapons. Why?Because they won't have to worry about being sued, and therefore, won't have to worry about their insurance companies jacking up their rates, because they are protected from lawsuits.

    I just wish they would extend it to not just CFP holders, but anyone who is legally carrying a firearm, but it is a step in the right direction if you ask me. :celebrate

  15. #15
    Regular Member okboomer's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2009
    Location
    Oklahoma, USA
    Posts
    1,164

    Post imported post

    I second the suggestion of looking for an Insurance Commissioner in the State of Arizona ... well, you can certainly start with the Department of Insurance at the State of Arizona website here http://www.id.state.az.us/As there are insurance regulatory statutes I would bet that a copy of this letter should be turned over to the Dept. of Ins. for examination.

    Then, I would think that looking for a different insurer would be the best resolution for the restauranteur.

    Perhaps the NRA could recommend a couple of Insurance companies who have gun-friendly policies and plans.

    If one client takes this laying down, then the insurance company will have a basis to apply to the state for modification of the insurance statutes.
    cheers - okboomer
    ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
    Lead, follow, or get out of the way

    Exercising my 2A Rights does NOT make me a CRIMINAL! Infringing on the exercise of those rights makes YOU one!

  16. #16
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    Feb 2010
    Location
    Northern Nevada, ,
    Posts
    721

    Post imported post

    No problem. Put up a sign in very small print in an inconspicuous place and hang it upside down. Next to it put a larger sign reading, "Our insurance company required this lame sign. We support the right to keep and bear arms."

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •