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Thread: Under Age OC

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    Regular Member CrossPistols's Avatar
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    Last few meets, My 12 yr old has been wanting to OC. So we looked into soft air, BB, and just a basic cap gun. BB & Pellet guns have city ordinance issues, and the toy cap guns are hard to find real looking ones, & there is alawys the stupid Orange tip. He wants a good replica, that looks as if it is real.

    Looking at the laws I really don't see why he could not carry a Real Pistol under my Supervision.

    1. Would it be too much considering the recent situation? and would it make any of you Anti's (lol) nervous?

    What say you all? :celebrate

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    Regular Member Taurus850CIA's Avatar
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    I spoke with you earlier on this. I'm on the fence. I imagine it would be a way to get a whole lot of people all kinds of riled up. They get nuts when it comes to children. I was left at home when I was 10-11-12 years old, watching my younger sisters. A parent would get a serious $*#@ storm for that now. Society doesn't see children as having the capacity for responsibility for even the most mundane things now. I don't know. It certainly would be pushing the envelope.
    "Fault always lies in the same place, my fine babies: with him weak enough to lay blame." - Cort

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    local units of government can regulate fake/toy/bb guns.

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    CrossPistols wrote:
    Last few meets, My 12 yr old has been wanting to OC. So we looked into soft air, BB, and just a basic cap gun. BB & Pellet guns have city ordinance issues, and the toy cap guns are hard to find real looking ones, & there is alawys the stupid Orange tip. He wants a good replica, that looks as if it is real.

    Looking at the laws I really don't see why he could not carry a Real Pistol under my Supervision.

    1. Would it be too much considering the recent situation? and would it make any of you Anti's (lol) nervous?

    What say you all? :celebrate
    IMPO i think it is a great way to teach a young boy proper gun handling skills with out the risk of hurting him self of others around him, as for a cap gun that has the orange tip why dont you just get him a holster with a closed bottom on it he has to leave it in the holster in public anyway only you and him would know the difference thats my take on it. so take that asyou will but i would OC with you and him anytime!!

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    Regular Member Taurus850CIA's Avatar
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    CrossPistols wrote:
    Last few meets, My 12 yr old has been wanting to OC. So we looked into soft air, BB, and just a basic cap gun. BB & Pellet guns have city ordinance issues, and the toy cap guns are hard to find real looking ones, & there is alawys the stupid Orange tip. He wants a good replica, that looks as if it is real.

    Looking at the laws I really don't see why he could not carry a Real Pistol under my Supervision.

    1. Would it be too much considering the recent situation? and would it make any of you Anti's (lol) nervous?

    What say you all? :celebrate
    "Fault always lies in the same place, my fine babies: with him weak enough to lay blame." - Cort

    Gun control is like trying to reduce Drunk Driving by making it tougher for sober people to own cars.

    Sentio aliquos togatos contra me conspirare.

    The answer to "1984" is "
    1776"

    With freedom comes much responsibility. It is for this reason so many are loathe to exercise it.

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    Regular Member CrossPistols's Avatar
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    zigziggityzoo wrote:
    local units of government can regulate fake/toy/bb guns.
    We know about the local ord on BB/Pellet, and we thought of the closed holster to hide the Orange tip. That's why we are leaning towards a real pistol. He carries on our property, he knows gun safety. So...

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    Taurus850CIA wrote:
    CrossPistols wrote:
    Last few meets, My 12 yr old has been wanting to OC. So we looked into soft air, BB, and just a basic cap gun. BB & Pellet guns have city ordinance issues, and the toy cap guns are hard to find real looking ones, & there is alawys the stupid Orange tip. He wants a good replica, that looks as if it is real.

    Looking at the laws I really don't see why he could not carry a Real Pistol under my Supervision.

    1. Would it be too much considering the recent situation? and would it make any of you Anti's (lol) nervous?

    What say you all? :celebrate
    im not sure the laws surounding that but if you have made sure he has had the proper training i dont see why not although myself iwould be more comfortable that it was unloaded for another couple years untill he can really truly understand the repercusions of an AD or if he felt like he needed to use it

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    Mythought is this:

    Walking down the road, carrying on your property, meeting up with other people, eating a meal, etc... He most likely can do this things while carryingwithout issue, responsibly and well ordered.

    The concern comes into play if things don't go well. The police show up, cause a scene, start arresting people, including dad and himself.

    Would these events cause him undue stress? Would he be able to understand that things are going to work out?

    I know grown adults that I have reservations about, if the "**** hits the fan", so to speak. You know your child better than us, of course, but I would just be concerned about ability to remember those safety lessons, or make responsible decision, in a high-stress environment.

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    CrossPistols wrote:
    Last few meets, My 12 yr old has been wanting to OC. So we looked into soft air, BB, and just a basic cap gun. BB & Pellet guns have city ordinance issues, and the toy cap guns are hard to find real looking ones, & there is alawys the stupid Orange tip. He wants a good replica, that looks as if it is real.

    Looking at the laws I really don't see why he could not carry a Real Pistol under my Supervision.

    1. Would it be too much considering the recent situation? and would it make any of you Anti's (lol) nervous?

    What say you all? :celebrate
    As posted in another thread about minors and OC, this is what is on the MCL right now.

    THE MICHIGAN PENAL CODE (EXCERPT)
    Act 328 of 1931
    750.234f [highlight= rgb(136, 255, 255);]Possession[/highlight] of firearm by person less than 18 years of age; exceptions; violation as misdemeanor; penalty.
    Sec. 234f.
    (1) Except as provided in subsection (2), an individual less than 18 years of age shall not possess a firearm in public except under the direct supervision of an individual 18 years of age or older.
    (2) Subsection (1) does not apply to an individual less than 18 years of age who possesses a firearm in accordance with part 401 (wildlife conservation) of the natural resources and environmental protection act, Act No. 451 of the Public Acts of 1994, being sections 324.40101 to 324.40119 of the Michigan Compiled Laws, or part 435 (hunting and fishing licensing) of Act No. 451 of the Public Acts of 1994, being sections 324.43501 to 324.43561 of the Michigan Compiled Laws. However, an individual less than 18 years of age may possess a firearm without a hunting license while at, or going to or from, a recognized target range or trap or skeet shooting ground if, while going to or from the range or ground, the firearm is enclosed and securely fastened in a case or locked in the trunk of a motor vehicle.
    (3) An individual who violates this section is guilty of a misdemeanor, punishable by imprisonment for not more than 90 days, or a fine of not more than $100.00, or both.

    SO... what MCL 750.234f is saying, YES your child CAN open carry a firearm at OC events or where ever else for that matter, SO LONG AS the child is in DIRECT supervision by an adult 18 years of age or older.

    HOWEVER, if the child some how becomes out of your direct supervision, you may be punished by MCL 750.235a.

    Moving on, as stated on the OC pamphlet that is in front of me right now, it states and I quote, "Any 18 year old or older, law-abiding citizen of the state of Michigan who owns a legally registered handgun my openly carry said firearm..."

    My concern is does the firearm that the child is carrying have to be registered to them, or the adult in supervision? THIS is what is unclear and I cannot find anything on.

    At this time you seem to be a go, but I feel I must say, Danger Will Robinson DANGER!!!

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    Phoenixphire wrote:
    Mythought is this:

    Walking down the road, carrying on your property, meeting up with other people, eating a meal, etc... He most likely can do this things while carryingwithout issue, responsibly and well ordered.

    The concern comes into play if things don't go well. The police show up, cause a scene, start arresting people, including dad and himself.

    Would these events cause him undue stress? Would he be able to understand that things are going to work out?

    I know grown adults that I have reservations about, if the "@#$% hits the fan", so to speak. You know your child better than us, of course, but I would just be concerned about ability to remember those safety lessons, or make responsible decision, in a high-stress environment.
    These would be my concerns also.

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    Phoenixphire wrote:
    Mythought is this:

    Walking down the road, carrying on your property, meeting up with other people, eating a meal, etc... He most likely can do this things while carryingwithout issue, responsibly and well ordered.

    The concern comes into play if things don't go well. The police show up, cause a scene, start arresting people, including dad and himself.

    Would these events cause him undue stress? Would he be able to understand that things are going to work out?

    I know grown adults that I have reservations about, if the "@#$% hits the fan", so to speak. You know your child better than us, of course, but I would just be concerned about ability to remember those safety lessons, or make responsible decision, in a high-stress environment.
    Not to mention that it most likely does provide RAS (minor in possession).

    Then there's the idea that it may be illegal depending on where you are.

    Part of the learning process and growing up is understanding that some things come in time, not "when we want". Waiting until we are 18 to vote, 21 to drink, and a host of other things that have inherent responsibilities.

    We discourage adults from OC if they are unwilling to learn the laws, their rights, and how to properly assert them.

    Kid wants to carry? Then let him demonstrate that he can. Have him research all the facts on it, then take him to the Chief in whose area he will be doing this and let him (not you) convince the chief (that doesn't mean you do the research for him and then coach him on how to do it, and make sure you record the convo's w/the chief).

    This isn't child's play (and your wanting to bring a child into it). People are being persecuted. We are talking about corruption within PD's, and your talking about bring your child into all of that. Your choice to do it since it's your kid (and I can understand his enthusiasm), but do you even know if it's legal yet?

    Personally, I think it's a bad idea at this time. I'm all for kids and guns, and think people should start training them at an early age. It's just that right now there is a lot of divisiveness within the firearms community here in Michigan (over OC no less), and I think this would only be stirring the pot.


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    Regular Member WARCHILD's Avatar
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    I agree with Ghostrider. While I applaud your involvement with your son, don't rush it. How about using the tactic we ourselves promote where we cannot carry, an empty holster would show his support and be less of a chance for a bad encounter.

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    Regular Member Bikenut's Avatar
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    One concern I would have is anything that happened which resulted in a paper trail attached to my child..... would follow that child forever. The responsibility to protect my kids was something I understood to involve much more than their physical security... but also their future.

    However..... as a Dad... I would be so proud of my kid! And I would look into the ordinances/laws governing toy guns.. and even choose a toy gun that is so obviously a toy gun in appearance there could be no mistake it was a toy gun... and then he and I would go on an outing together and enjoy the folks` smiles when they saw Dad & Lad together.

    Oh... and laugh at any weenie lefty folks who fell over in an apoplectic paralytic fit at the sight of a proud youngun' being "like Dad".
    Gun control isn't about the gun at all.... for those who want gun control it is all about their own fragile egos, their own lack of self esteem, their own inner fears, and most importantly... their own desire to dominate others. And an openly carried gun is a slap in the face to all of those things.

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    Regular Member CrossPistols's Avatar
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    Toy guns are controlled by law, because they are not real they are not protected by Constitutions. Empty holsters are for Places off limits to firearms so that is pointless.
    As far as his embracing the reality of the Adult responsibility, or Stress of a situation, well He has been around firearms since he was born, he was under strict rules until age 5 not to touch, or even look at my firearms whether they be displayed, or on my person. The only time he was allowed to look at them was during Cleaning as I would teach him the different parts to learn their name, & function.
    Since age 5 he's been firing My 1911, 357, 38 pistols & rifles varying from a 10/22, 30-30, & 410/12 gauge shotgun. He is an only child, and has been home schooled so while he may not be as Mature as one of us, he is more than most kids his age, & has not had the outside influences by the punk/gangsta mentality of today's kids.
    While Our modern gun culture is not that of the 1800's he is well aware that kids younger than him from that era handle firearms on a daily basis, and that these are tools for hunting, defending, and he knows the irreversible consequences of what firearms can do to animals as well as Humans.

    All this being said, this is why I brought this up, I wanted to see the thought process, Ideas, and concerns from the same group that went thru the last controversial situation. Only here this senario has yet to take place, and instead of a gun being the subject of topic, it is a topic of the subject.

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    Regular Member autosurgeon's Avatar
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    I wouldn't do it without a firearms attorney first looking at all of the angles.. and even then I would be hesitant.

    As for him being mature I would agree as I have met him and it doesn't surprise me as home schooled kids usually are much more mature for their age! I know I was.

    I had my own lawn care business at 12 and by 14 was a certified small engine technician and was making 200.00+ a week. Not bad for the early 90's


    Anything I post may be my opinion and not the law... you are responsible to do your own verification.

    Blackstone (1753-1765) maintains that "the law holds that it is better that ten guilty persons escape than that one innocent suffer."

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    Regular Member CrossPistols's Avatar
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    I see all the ramifications, I see all the concerns, I'd like to see more members opinions on this, but from what I gather is that A Citizen over the age of 18 who has the right to OC pistol, & Long Gun that is fine and will be supported loudly by most of the posters on this site, Yet another citizen under the age of 18 who has the right under MCL to OC is kinda supported? Maybe...If...Come on folks where's that 2nd Amendment Spirit that was being flung so loudly and Boldly only a week ago.

    I see not only an age discrimination, but I see A violation of the Constitution. Less some one can point out Age Requirement for Constitutional rights. IMHO


    Article 1 Sec 6?

    2nd Amendment?

    750.234f [highlight= rgb(136, 255, 255);]Possession of firearm by person less than 18 years of age; exceptions; violation as misdemeanor; penalty.
    Sec. 234f.
    (1) Except as provided in subsection (2), an individual less than 18 years of age shall not possess a firearm in public except under the direct supervision of an individual 18 years of age or older.



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    CrossPistols wrote:
    I see all the ramifications, I see all the concerns, I'd like to see more members opinions on this, but from what I gather is that A Citizen over the age of 18 who has the right to OC pistol, & Long Gun that is fine and will be supported loudly by most of the posters on this site, Yet another citizen under the age of 18 who has the right under MCL to OC is kinda supported? Maybe...If...Come on folks where's that 2nd Amendment Spirit that was being flung so loudly and Boldly only a week ago.

    I see not only an age discrimination, but I see A violation of the Constitution. Less some one can point out Age Requirement for Constitutional rights. IMHO


    Article 1 Sec 6?

    2nd Amendment?

    750.234f [highlight= rgb(136, 255, 255);]Possession of firearm by person less than 18 years of age; exceptions; violation as misdemeanor; penalty.
    Sec. 234f.
    (1) Except as provided in subsection (2), an individual less than 18 years of age shall not possess a firearm in public except under the direct supervision of an individual 18 years of age or older.

    If it's legal, and that is what you want to do, that is up to you and I support that right! But just like anything else, becareful, and make sure you are abiding by ALL of the laws.

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    CrossPistols wrote:
    Toy guns are controlled by law, because they are not real they are not protected by Constitutions. Empty holsters are for Places off limits to firearms so that is pointless.
    As far as his embracing the reality of the Adult responsibility, or Stress of a situation, well He has been around firearms since he was born, he was under strict rules until age 5 not to touch, or even look at my firearms whether they be displayed, or on my person. The only time he was allowed to look at them was during Cleaning as I would teach him the different parts to learn their name, & function.
    Since age 5 he's been firing My 1911, 357, 38 pistols & rifles varying from a 10/22, 30-30, & 410/12 gauge shotgun. He is an only child, and has been home schooled so while he may not be as Mature as one of us, he is more than most kids his age, & has not had the outside influences by the punk/gangsta mentality of today's kids.
    While Our modern gun culture is not that of the 1800's he is well aware that kids younger than him from that era handle firearms on a daily basis, and that these are tools for hunting, defending, and he knows the irreversible consequences of what firearms can do to animals as well as Humans.

    All this being said, this is why I brought this up, I wanted to see the thought process, Ideas, and concerns from the same group that went thru the last controversial situation. Only here this senario has yet to take place, and instead of a gun being the subject of topic, it is a topic of the subject.
    Sounds like a very responsible and well-adjusted young man.

    My thoughts lean toward ensuring he stays that way. Sometimes high-stress environments can impact a person's perspective in ways that are not anticipated. There are many people who, as adults, suffer from things such as PTSD (or "shell-shock", before the fancy medical name) as a result of emotionally traumatic events.

    I would say go for it, with one caveat: Sit down with him, show him the possible outcomes, give those outcomes probabilities, and teach him the right way to react in a "worse case" scenario. For example, not to say anything if arrested or detained. Give him your attorney's business card. Talk about times when it would or would not be safe to remove the gun from the holster, if the officer so requests.

    Just make sure that he understands that his choice carries a burden. Or, as Peter Parker's Uncle Ben would say: "With great power comes great responsibility."

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    Regular Member Bikenut's Avatar
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    CrossPistols wrote:
    I see all the ramifications, I see all the concerns, I'd like to see more members opinions on this, but from what I gather is that A Citizen over the age of 18 who has the right to OC pistol, & Long Gun that is fine and will be supported loudly by most of the posters on this site, Yet another citizen under the age of 18 who has the right under MCL to OC is kinda supported? Maybe...If...Come on folks where's that 2nd Amendment Spirit that was being flung so loudly and Boldly only a week ago.

    I see not only an age discrimination, but I see A violation of the Constitution. Less some one can point out Age Requirement for Constitutional rights. IMHO


    Article 1 Sec 6?

    2nd Amendment?

    750.234f [highlight= rgb(136, 255, 255);]Possession of firearm by person less than 18 years of age; exceptions; violation as misdemeanor; penalty.
    Sec. 234f.
    (1) Except as provided in subsection (2), an individual less than 18 years of age shall not possess a firearm in public except under the direct supervision of an individual 18 years of age or older.

    One thing about all that quoted above................. in the context of minors carrying a real gun.......

    A person isn't considered a legal adult until age 18. Yeah, we all know most youngsters are making decisions on their own long before age 18 but.............

    Below age 18 who is responsible for a decision to carry a firearm? It would be the responsibility of the person who is doing the direct supervision of the person under 18.

    So... having said all that... until legal age is reached.... to me it would not be appropriate for me, as a father, to make a decision for my young son/daughter that could have results involving child protection services, foster homes, courts, or even my teenage kid being treated like a gangbanger by LE during the stop and the courts afterwards, and a paper trail that would never go away affecting them for life.

    Now.... will all that happen? Probably not... maybe not... but for me, as a father, that "probably" and "maybe" just isn't good enough when it concerns a hot button issue of guns and kids in public. And it isn't appropriate for me to make a decision that important for my kid... carrying a real gun in public is a decision my kid should make for him/her self when legally able to carry without adult supervision.....

    And I left out the possible repercussions on the parent/over 18 supervisor that made the decision to allow the minor to carry a real gun in public.

    One thing to note.... it would be very rare for a 12 year old (not knocking 12 year olds one bit!) to understand all the ramifications of getting jammed up over carrying a gun... but it is a parent's responsibility to keep their kids from being exposed to possible jamming up. And asking a 12 year old to make that decision is... dare I say it?.... going to be viewed as an irresponsible action of the parent by the courts... and child protection services...

    Now that is just my 2 cents on the matter...

    Gun control isn't about the gun at all.... for those who want gun control it is all about their own fragile egos, their own lack of self esteem, their own inner fears, and most importantly... their own desire to dominate others. And an openly carried gun is a slap in the face to all of those things.

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    if you decide to go for it,might i suggest doing it at an OC event?

    at least for awhile,it'd help him build up confidence in doing it with you around(it'd look REALLY bad if you two just started OC'ing together and he was looking nervous and such,i know i would be that way probably) plus i feel that as a group we are not harassed nearly as much.

    this has sparked my interest on any OC events before i turn 18(mind you most people feel i look over that,i wouldnt get as many looks as a 12 yo.) its something im going to discuss with members via pm after i post this.


    not a lawyer, dont take anything i say as legal advice.


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    I believe it would be legal, but my concern is this:

    The reason, the real reason we carry, is self defense.

    I have met you and your kid, and I know he would be safe and follow all the rules and things, but what if, and this is unlikely, but what if it comes down to a situation where he is feeling threatened.

    Would you trust his judgement? Would his judgement fall, legally, on you, the parent? What ramifications could it have if so? How would it affect him mentally?

    If he is going to carry, you have to bear in mind that he could end up in a situation like this. If you don't want him to have to make this decision [since you have to be supervising him anyway], I would recommend that he doesn't.

    Don't carry unless you are ready, prepared, and understand the consequences of, using it if you have to.

    Even if you are 12.

  22. #22
    Regular Member CrossPistols's Avatar
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    Very good responses, this is what I was looking for. As a parent I would not want to force him into anything he did not want to do. We would if at all try this at an OC event.

    As far as trauma, stress well I know first hand what can happen, as I have been thru a real life trauma at age 9. All in all though I still don't fall for all that Psycho babble bull crap, when it comes to all these Attention disorders, depression syndromes etc. I think they have been around long before the fancy titles, and Acronyms came along, the only differences is that then we dealt with them for the most part with out drugs, and we considered most of them to be behavior traits that usually are age related, and some because of trauma.

    The worse case scenario is something we go over a lot, he knows the 4th & 5th, and as I said this is something Justice has been thinking about. This was his first year Small game hunting, and he did well when it came to shooting, & gun Discipline.

    If we did this we would let every one know when we were going to be carrying.

    Keep the ideas & suggestions coming.

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    Evil Creamsicle wrote:
    I believe it would be legal, but my concern is this:

    The reason, the real reason we carry, is self defense.

    Well the issue of course is not just the second amendment, it is also the first. Open Carry while very much is about self defense is also about raising awareness.

    As a matter of taste I'm not much in favor of kids carrying anything apart from toys in terms of guns, but I'm a believer in liability rather than regulation. I don't know if it is illegal, but in terms of safety it might be better if the adults are the only ones armed.

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    SpringerXDacp wrote: Interesting. Gun education at a young, but appropriate age is just as important as drug education and sex education. Information is always better than ignorance. While talking about guns and kids though, I thought this might be good to post as well.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zlSIqJpXI5A&NR=1



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