Motorcycle OC ride

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Zukirider wrote:

i dont have the exactly case law but in michigan a gun in a holstereven open carried is consider conceled as soon as you enter a motor vehicle and that does include motorcycles so try it at you own risk but i would say if you dont have a CPL you have a 99.99% chance of getting charged with carring conceled

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http://opencarry.mywowbb.com/forum1/1.html

[font="Verdana,Arial,Helvetica"]7) If you state a rule of law, it is incumbent upon you to try to cite, as best you can, to authority. Citing to authority, using links when available,is what makes OCDO so successful. An authority is a published source of law that can back your claim up - statute, ordinance, court case, newspaper article covering a legal issue, etc.[/font]

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lil_freak_66 wrote:

i believe the law for vehicles states inor upon.



therefore would be concealed if carried,regardless of actually being concealed or not.

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For clarification...

Please cite the law you are referring to.

http://opencarry.mywowbb.com/forum1/1.html

[font="Verdana,Arial,Helvetica"]7) If you state a rule of law, it is incumbent upon you to try to cite, as best you can, to authority. Citing to authority, using links when available,is what makes OCDO so successful. An authority is a published source of law that can back your claim up - statute, ordinance, court case, newspaper article covering a legal issue, etc.[/font]

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CV67PAT wrote:

Zukirider wrote:

i dont have the exactly case law but in michigan a gun in a holstereven open carried is consider conceled as soon as you enter a motor vehicle and that does include motorcycles so try it at you own risk but i would say if you dont have a CPL you have a 99.99% chance of getting charged with carring conceled

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http://opencarry.mywowbb.com/forum1/1.html

[font=Verdana,Arial,Helvetica]7) If you state a rule of law, it is incumbent upon you to try to cite, as best you can, to authority. Citing to authority, using links when available,is what makes OCDO so successful. An authority is a published source of law that can back your claim up - statute, ordinance, court case, newspaper article covering a legal issue, etc.[/font]

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[align=left]750.227d Transporting or possessing firearm in or upon motor vehicle or self-propelled vehicle designed[/align]

[align=left]for land travel; conditions; violation as misdemeanor; penalty.[/align]

[align=left]the reason i stated this one is because they describe a vehicle as ANY self propelled vehicle for land travel[/align]

[align=left]Sec. 227d. (1) Except as otherwise permitted by law, a person shall not transport or possess in or upon a motor vehicle or[/align]

[align=left]any self-propelled vehicle designed for land travel a firearm, other than a pistol, unless the firearm is unloaded and is 1 or more[/align]

[align=left]of the following:[/align]

[align=left](a) Taken down.[/align]

[align=left](b) Enclosed in a case.[/align]

[align=left](c) Carried in the trunk of the vehicle.[/align]

[align=left](d) Inaccessible from the interior of the vehicle.[/align]

[align=left](2) A person who violates this section is guilty of a misdemeanor, punishable by imprisonment for not more than 90 days, or[/align]

[align=left]a fine of not more than $100.00, or both.[/align]

[align=left]History: Add. 1981, Act 103, Eff. Mar. 31, 1982.[/align]

[align=left]750.227 Concealed weapons; carrying; penalty.[/align]

[align=left]Sec. 227. (1) A person shall not carry a dagger, dirk, stiletto, a double-edged nonfolding stabbing instrument of any length,[/align]

[align=left]or any other dangerous weapon, except a hunting knife adapted and carried as such, concealed on or about his or her person, or[/align]

[align=left]whether concealed or otherwise in any vehicle operated or occupied by the person, except in his or her dwelling house, place[/align]

[align=left]of business or on other land possessed by the person.[/align]

[align=left](2) A person shall not carry a pistol concealed on or about his or her person, or, whether concealed or otherwise, in a vehicle[/align]

[align=left]operated or occupied by the person, except in his or her dwelling house, place of business, or on other land possessed by the[/align]

[align=left]person, without a license to carry the pistol as provided by law and if licensed, shall not carry the pistol in a place or manner[/align]

[align=left]inconsistent with any restrictions upon such license.[/align]

[align=left](3) A person who violates this section is guilty of a felony, punishable by imprisonment for not more than 5 years, or by a[/align]

[align=left]fine of not more than $2,500.00.[/align]

[align=left]History: 1931, Act 328, Eff. Sept. 18, 1931;—CL 1948, 750.227;—Am. 1973, Act 206, Eff. Mar. 29, 1974;—Am. 1986, Act 8, Eff. July 1, 1986.[/align]

[align=left]Constitutionality: The double jeopardy protection against multiple punishment for the same offense is a restriction on a court’s ability to impose punishment[/align]

[align=left]in excess of that intended by the Legislature, not a limit on the Legislature’s power to define crime and fix punishment. People v. Sturgis, 427 Mich. 392, 397[/align]

[align=left]N.W.2d 783 (1986).[/align]

[align=left]Former law: See section 5 of Act 372 of 1927, being CL 1929, § 16753.[/align]

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http://crime.about.com/od/gunlawsbystate/a/gunlaws_mi.htm

Permit to carry handguns?

Yes. Carrying concealed or openly in a motor vehicle requires a license.

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lil_freak_66 wrote:

http://crime.about.com/od/gunlawsbystate/a/gunlaws_mi.htm

Permit to carry handguns?

Yes. Carrying concealed or openly in a motor vehicle requires a license.

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My point was that a motorcycleis considered a motor vehicle for purpose of carrying a pistol period

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lil_freak_66 wrote:

http://crime.about.com/od/gunlawsbystate/a/gunlaws_mi.htm

Permit to carry handguns?

Yes. Carrying concealed or openly in a motor vehicle requires a license.

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That link does not contain a cite of a Michigan Compiled Law.

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Zukirider wrote:

lil_freak_66 wrote:

http://crime.about.com/od/gunlawsbystate/a/gunlaws_mi.htm

Permit to carry handguns?

Yes. Carrying concealed or openly in a motor vehicle requires a license.

Click to expand...

My point was that a motorcycleis considered a motor vehicle for purpose of carrying a pistol period

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This is a discussion and not a flame...

The operative word in your cite is "in". The operator/possessor is not "in" a motorcycle, but rather "on" a motorcycle.

What background information do you have regarding that?

I'm searching for a MSP response to such a query. I read it here, but can't readily locate it.

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If I have my '77 Hondamatic back on the road by then I'd be down for that. She's a real beaut let me tell ya, lol.

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Ethan_Frome wrote:

If I have my '77 Hondamatic back on the road by then I'd be down for that. She's a real beaut let me tell ya, lol.

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I rode one of those back in the day, when they were new. Thanks for the memory jog.

"You meet the nicest people on a Honda Motorcycle."

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CV67PAT wrote:

Ethan_Frome wrote:

If I have my '77 Hondamatic back on the road by then I'd be down for that. She's a real beaut let me tell ya, lol.

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I rode one of those back in the day, when they were new. Thanks for the memory jog.

"You meet the nicest people on a Honda Motorcycle."

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Ha-ha, mines only got 3100 original miles on it. I had it on the road two summers ago, but it progressively gave me lots of fits starting in the morning. It runs but we have to do a few adjustments to it. I can't find anyone who wants to work on it so my dad, brother and I are working on it ourselves.

I'm a big guy so it looks like a mini bike underneath me, but it's fun as hell.

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[align=left][/align]

the reason i stated this one is because they describe a vehicle as ANY self propelled vehicle for land travel

Sec. 227d. (1) Except as otherwise permitted by law, a person shall not transport or possess in or upon a motor vehicle or any self-propelled vehicle designed for land travel a firearm, other than a pistol, unless the firearm is unloaded and is 1 or more

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it is important to realize that, 227d does not apply to pistols.......

If you had a rule that reads:

"nobody allowed in, other than tall blond women"

I think we can all agree that the rule would not mean that nobody is allowed in. The sign would be referring to everybody, except tall blond women.

227d is read the same way. "other than a pistol" means exactly that. This rule applies to all firearms, except pistols.



the other law you posted applies only to CONCEALED pistols, or pistols that are carried IN a vehicle:

[align=left][/align]

(2) A person shall not carry a pistol CONCEALED on or about his or her person, or, whether concealed or otherwise, in a vehicle operated or occupied by the person, except in his or her dwelling house, place of business, or on other land possessed by the

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This says two things:
(without a cpl)
First, you cannot carry a concealed pistol outside your dwelling place
2nd, you cannot carry a pistol open or concealed in a vehicle.

it is interesting to note that they purposely did not include the same language from 227 d which states "in or upon"

A pistol in a holster in plain view attached to the riders leg would not be concealed. Nor would it be IN a vehicle.

do other people agree with the wording of the mcl?
Don't get me wrong, I think that carrying on a motorcycle without cpl is a bad idea because it will probably land you in court. ....however, the plain reading of the mcl would indicate that it is not prohibited and you should win your case. But it's not guaranteed, and even if you win you spent thousands of dollars on attorney fees.

does anybody have a link to the letter from sgt deasey from the msp that indicated the msp thought that riding a motorcycle or bicycle while oc'ing was legal?

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CV67PAT wrote:

Zukirider wrote:

lil_freak_66 wrote:

http://crime.about.com/od/gunlawsbystate/a/gunlaws_mi.htm

Permit to carry handguns?

Yes. Carrying concealed or openly in a motor vehicle requires a license.

Click to expand...

My point was that a motorcycleis considered a motor vehicle for purpose of carrying a pistol period

Click to expand...

This is a discussion and not a flame...

The operative word in your cite is "in". The operator/possessor is not "in" a motorcycle, but rather "on" a motorcycle.

What background information do you have regarding that?

I'm searching for a MSP response to such a query. I read it here, but can't readily locate it.

Click to expand...

Sgt. Deasy did write this in an email.

"It is legal to openly carry a pistol on a bicycle. Michigan law (MCL 750.227) makes it illegal to carry a pistol in a vehicle without a CPL. Since a person rides on (not in) a bicycle, a pistol is not concealed if carried openly by the rider."

I also received this from him.

"Mr. Jeffs,

I don't think the issue is whether bicycles are vehicles - I think they are. The question is whether a person carrying a visible pistol while riding a bicycle is carrying the pistol IN a vehicle as prohibited by MCL 750.227; in order to be guilty of carrying a concealed pistol, a non-CPL holder must be carrying the pistol IN the vehicle.

The Penal Code does not define "in" so I checked a couple dictionaries and found that as an adverb 'in' generally means "on the inside" or "within." Thus, I don't think a person carrying a plainly visible pistol (e.g., housed in a hip-holster) on a bicycle - or motorcycle - is carrying the pistol in a vehicle, so they're not guilty of violating MCL 750.227. Contrast that with a person transporting a pistol inside a storage compartment attached to a bicycle or motorcycle - in that case they are carrying the pistol IN the vehicle. I think my analysis is supported by the Court's opinion in People v. Nimeth, 236 Mich. App. 616 (1999) (discussing a pistol hidden IN a motorcycle).

Further, the purpose of MCL 750.227 "is to protect quarreling persons from being injured by an adversary who might suddenly draw and use a concealed weapon without notice." People v. Emery, 150 Mich. App. 657, 663 (1986). Charging a person on a bicycle or motorcycle would hardly be within the purpose of the statute; after all, openly carrying a pistol serves notice that the person is in possession of a pistol.

That said, I am simply relaying our position on the matter. As I've mentioned to you before, the MSP cannot give legal opinions that bind another police agency. So, if someone is concerned about overzealous officers, they should probably play it safe and not openly carry on a bicycle or motorcycle, or they should get a Concealed Pistol License."

Regards, Sgt. Thomas Deasy
Michigan State Police-Executive Resource Section
714 S. Harrison Rd. East Lansing, MI 48823
(517) 336-6441

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Thanks Ventilator.

That's the correspondence I was searching for.

Tagged for future reference.

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Also this...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7IU1bzZheWk

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CV67PAT wrote:

Zukirider wrote:

lil_freak_66 wrote:

http://crime.about.com/od/gunlawsbystate/a/gunlaws_mi.htm

Permit to carry handguns?

Yes. Carrying concealed or openly in a motor vehicle requires a license.

Click to expand...

My point was that a motorcycleis considered a motor vehicle for purpose of carrying a pistol period

Click to expand...

This is a discussion and not a flame...

The operative word in your cite is "in". The operator/possessor is not "in" a motorcycle, but rather "on" a motorcycle.

What background information do you have regarding that?

I'm searching for a MSP response to such a query. I read it here, but can't readily locate it.

Click to expand...

i didnt take it as a flame im just saying that if you carry on a motorcycle with out a permit your standing a very very thin line and in my interpritation of the MCL i wouldnt do it because like someone else said even if you do win its going to be a very costly battle to do soo

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sorry, i helped to hijack my own thread.....back to the subject at hand

how many riders to we have so far?

three including me?

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Zukirider wrote:

CV67PAT wrote:

Zukirider wrote:

lil_freak_66 wrote:

http://crime.about.com/od/gunlawsbystate/a/gunlaws_mi.htm

Permit to carry handguns?

Yes. Carrying concealed or openly in a motor vehicle requires a license.

Click to expand...

My point was that a motorcycleis considered a motor vehicle for purpose of carrying a pistol period

Click to expand...

This is a discussion and not a flame...

The operative word in your cite is "in". The operator/possessor is not "in" a motorcycle, but rather "on" a motorcycle.

What background information do you have regarding that?

I'm searching for a MSP response to such a query. I read it here, but can't readily locate it.

Click to expand...

i didnt take it as a flame im just saying that if you carry on a motorcycle with out a permit your standing a very very thin line and in my interpritation of the MCL i wouldnt do it because like someone else said even if you do win its going to be a very costly battle to do soo

Click to expand...

Agreed. I just wanted the other info out here to be seen and I couldn't find it.

And the horse is never dead. Especially when we get a youngster in here stating opinions as facts without substantiation.

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lapeer20m wrote:

sorry, i helped to hijacked my own thread.....back to the subject at hand

how many riders to we have so far?

three including me?

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Hi Jack.

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yes back to it Im in for the ride +1

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I started my motorcycle yesterday. Surprisingly she fired right up, no battery charger needed. It's been about 5 months she has been sitting.

I need to install a license plate light. My bike does not have one and i want to make sure everything about the machine is 100% legal to keep an officer from writing me a ticket for an equipment violation after pulling me over for oc'ing.

Can't wait for the weather to break so i can go for a ride!