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Thread: National Parks Carry

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    I was wondering if anyone else had plans for visiting a National Park herein the northern part ofVirginia next Monday. I was thinking on eitherthe Virginia side ofGreat Falls http://www.nps.gov/grfa/index.htmor perhaps Manassas National Battlefield Park http://www.nps.gov/mana/index.htmif the weather allows. I was thinking mid to late afternoon, about 2:00-3:00pm. Any thoughts?

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    I just watched "Gods & Generals" (great movie, and it's all about Virginia) last weekend and that really has me wanting to go walk around the Manassas battlefield. I'm going to wait for some more melting to take place though, I don't want to walk through 2 feet of snow.

    By the way, models are hinting at another coastal storm on the 22nd, but it may be too warm for an all snow event this time around:

    MODELS DIVERGE IN SOLNS FOR EVOLUTION OF SHORTWAVE/S SAT NGT THRU MON NGT. THERE IS POTENTIAL FOR SIGNIFICANT STORM TO AFFECT THE AREA DRNG THIS TIME...

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    VApatriot wrote:
    I was wondering if anyone else had plans for visiting a National Park herein the northern part ofVirginia next Monday. I was thinking on eitherthe Virginia side ofGreat Falls http://www.nps.gov/grfa/index.htmor perhaps Manassas National Battlefield Park http://www.nps.gov/mana/index.htmif the weather allows. I was thinking mid to late afternoon, about 2:00-3:00pm. Any thoughts?
    I won't be able to do anything that day, but I'll visit a park at some point in the near future.

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    Accomplished Advocate peter nap's Avatar
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    rebfan wrote:
    VApatriot wrote:
    I was wondering if anyone else had plans for visiting a National Park herein the northern part ofVirginia next Monday. I was thinking on eitherthe Virginia side ofGreat Falls http://www.nps.gov/grfa/index.htmor perhaps Manassas National Battlefield Park http://www.nps.gov/mana/index.htmif the weather allows. I was thinking mid to late afternoon, about 2:00-3:00pm. Any thoughts?
    I won't be able to do anything that day, but I'll visit a park at some point in the near future.
    Yep, me too. I'll take my assault rock!

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    Regular Member apollosmom's Avatar
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    Think I'll take a relaxing ride up the Colonial Parkway from Yorktown up to Williamsburg and back.

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    Regular Member Neplusultra's Avatar
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    It would still be CC only right? At least in VA.

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    Neplusultra wrote:
    It would still be CC only right? At least in VA.
    No. This law change has nothing to do with State Parks. It conforms National Parks to the generalcarry laws of theindividual states. In Virginia we will be able to CC or OC with a permit, and we will also be ableto still OC without a permit the way we can in almost all other public places.

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    Regular Member Neplusultra's Avatar
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    VApatriot wrote:
    Neplusultra wrote:
    It would still be CC only right? At least in VA.
    No. This law change has nothing to do with State Parks. It conforms National Parks to the generalcarry laws of theindividual states. In Virginia we will be able to CC or OC with a permit, and we will also be ableto still OC without a permit the way we can in almost all other public places.
    Really? That wasn't my limited understanding. I thought the law made federal parks the same as state parks. Which in VA means CC is OK but not OC. IIRC. But you are saying the law makes the national parks follow the statewide carry laws????

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    Regular Member virginiatuck's Avatar
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    Neplusultra wrote:
    It would still be CC only right? At least in VA.
    If only we had an authoritative answer...

    The "old" rule, which has since been removed from the register, issued in December 2008, after President Bush's EO#?????? read:

    Title 36 - Parks, Forests, and Public Property

    Chapter 1 - National Park Service, DOI

    Part 2 - Resource Protection, Public Use, and Recreation

    2.4 Weapons traps and nets. (new paragraph (h))

    (h) Notwithstanding any other provision in this Chapter, a person may possess, carry, and transport concealed, loaded, and operable firearms within a national park
    area in accordance with the laws of the state in which the national park area, or that portion thereof, is located, except as otherwise prohibited by applicable federal law."




    The current law reads (minus the Congressional findings sub-section):

    (b) Protecting the Right of Individuals To Bear arms in Units of the National Park System and the National Wildlife Refuge System- The Secretary of the Interior shall not promulgate or enforce any regulation that prohibits an individual from possessing a firearm including an assembled or functional firearm in any unit of the National Park System or the National Wildlife Refuge System if--
    (1) the individual is not otherwise prohibited by law from possessing the firearm; and

    (2) the possession of the firearm is in compliance with the law of the State in which the unit of the National Park System or the National Wildlife Refuge System is located.



    I have yet to see any citation or explanation of why open carry would be prohibited in a NP or NWR as of Monday, February 22, 2010 under current Virginia law.

    The only area where I see it even remotely possible for only concealed carry to be permitted is through the Virginia Department of Conservation and Recreation. In 4VAC5-30-10, "park" is defined as:

    "Park" means, unless specifically limited, all designated parks, parkways, historical and natural areas, sites, and other recreational areas under the jurisdiction of the Department of Conservation and Recreation.

    4VAC5-30-200, as most of us know already, reads:
    No person except employees, police officers, or officers of the department shall carry or possess firearms of any description, or airguns, within the park. This regulation shall not apply in areas designated for hunting by the Department of Conservation and Recreation. This regulation also shall not apply to the carrying of concealed handguns within state parks by holders of a valid concealed handgun permit issued pursuant to § 18.2-308 of the Code of Virginia.

    So, is any National Park or National Wildlife Refuge in any case, either completely or partially, under the jurisdiction of the VA DCR?

    If not, then open carry will almost certainly be legal.

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    Regular Member TFred's Avatar
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    Neplusultra wrote:
    VApatriot wrote:
    Neplusultra wrote:
    It would still be CC only right? At least in VA.
    No. This law change has nothing to do with State Parks. It conforms National Parks to the generalcarry laws of theindividual states. In Virginia we will be able to CC or OC with a permit, and we will also be ableto still OC without a permit the way we can in almost all other public places.
    Really? That wasn't my limited understanding. I thought the law made federal parks the same as state parks. Which in VA means CC is OK but not OC. IIRC. But you are saying the law makes the national parks follow the statewide carry laws????
    The answer is yes. I think the original rule change did that (the one that Bush signed as he left office), but the antis found a judge to overturn the rule. So Congress wrote it into law, and the new wording conformed to the general manner of carry within a state, not restricted to how states treated their own parks.

    It is an ironic a case of the antis shooting themselves in their own foot.

    TFred

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    TFred wrote:
    Neplusultra wrote:
    VApatriot wrote:
    Neplusultra wrote:
    It would still be CC only right? At least in VA.
    No. This law change has nothing to do with State Parks. It conforms National Parks to the generalcarry laws of theindividual states. In Virginia we will be able to CC or OC with a permit, and we will also be ableto still OC without a permit the way we can in almost all other public places.
    Really? That wasn't my limited understanding. I thought the law made federal parks the same as state parks. Which in VA means CC is OK but not OC. IIRC. But you are saying the law makes the national parks follow the statewide carry laws????
    The answer is yes. I think the original rule change did that (the one that Bush signed as he left office), but the antis found a judge to overturn the rule. So Congress wrote it into law, and the new wording conformed to the general manner of carry within a state, not restricted to how states treated their own parks.

    It is an ironic a case of the antis shooting themselves in their own foot.

    TFred
    It is rather ironic. I think we should send them a collective thank you for a better law.

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    Regular Member t33j's Avatar
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    I think I'll have lunch down at the Yorktown waterfront.
    Sic Semper Tyrannis

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    Wait...so on 2/22 I'll be able to open carry in Virginia national parks, even without a VA CHP?

    Name a place and I'll be there! (any time after 1pm)

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    Founder's Club Member - Moderator longwatch's Avatar
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    Indeed, just like any other non prohibited place in VA.



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    longwatch wrote:
    Indeed, just like any other non prohibited place in VA.

    Good to know! I kept confusing it with the rules from that short period it was made legal before being put on hold.

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    Regular Member Neplusultra's Avatar
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    nova wrote:
    longwatch wrote:
    Indeed, just like any other non prohibited place in VA.

    Good to know! I kept confusing it with the rules from that short period it was made legal before being put on hold.
    The same here. Good to get that straight.

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    We should all buy this costume from Party City and open carry muskets at the Manassas battlefield. :P


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    Sorry, dude, but I'm currently defined as a 'Dayum Yankee' so in honor of my heratage, I'd have to wear blue. But that doesn't meanI would not be willing bend an elbow with a friend.
    I sell ObamaBlades: Single-edged razors you can use to either remove the bumper sticker off your car, or slash your wrists..whichever works best for you.

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    Regular Member Riana's Avatar
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    Let me muddy the waters a bit more...

    I thought it would be OK to carry however you see fit outdoors, but you cannot enter a building, since it's Federal property. True?

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    Riana wrote:
    Let me muddy the waters a bit more...

    I thought it would be OK to carry however you see fit outdoors, but you cannot enter a building, since it's Federal property.* True?
    That is my understanding.

    From the WaPo article:

    "Supervisors will have to ensure that tourists keep guns out of visitor centers and rangers' office buildings, because federal law bans firearms in federal facilities. But guns could be carried into private lodges or concession stands, depending on state laws."

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    Riana wrote:
    Let me muddy the waters a bit more...

    I thought it would be OK to carry however you see fit outdoors, but you cannot enter a building, since it's Federal property. True?
    Carrying of firearms in Federal buildings is not banned ifyou entera buildingfor "lawful purposes." What a "lawful purpose" might be is not defined in the code, and there is no case law that helps to determine with exactly is ok and what is not. Almost all convictions of possession of a firearm in a Federal building have been additional charges related to things such as armed robberies of post offices. Since the perp was there for an unlawful purpose (robbery) he was not allowed to carry a firearm while in the building, thus the additional charge. Entering a building with the sole purposeof usingthe restroom or viewing ahistorical display seems like lawful-enough reason to be in the building, so the ban on carry should not apply in any such normal situations.

    Just remember, I am not a lawyer, and even if this view is correct, the first person to been seen carryingin a Federal building is most likely going to beheaded for their day in court to determine what a "lawful purpose" is.

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    Regular Member TFred's Avatar
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    VApatriot wrote:
    Riana wrote:
    Let me muddy the waters a bit more...

    I thought it would be OK to carry however you see fit outdoors, but you cannot enter a building, since it's Federal property. True?
    Carrying of firearms in Federal buildings is not banned ifyou entera buildingfor "lawful purposes." What a "lawful purpose" might be is not defined in the code, and there is no case law that helps to determine with exactly is ok and what is not. Almost all convictions of possession of a firearm in a Federal building have been additional charges related to things such as armed robberies of post offices. Since the perp was there for an unlawful purpose (robbery) he was not allowed to carry a firearm while in the building, thus the additional charge. Entering a building with the sole purposeof usingthe restroom or viewing ahistorical display seems like lawful-enough reason to be in the building, so the ban on carry should not apply in any such normal situations.

    Just remember, I am not a lawyer, and even if this view is correct, the first person to been seen carryingin a Federal building is most likely going to beheaded for their day in court to determine what a "lawful purpose" is.
    While your interpretation may eventually be a correct one, that is clearly not what the
    signs say that are or will be displayed on the facilities. The signs clearly indicate separate
    sections of code and punishments for mere possession and possession with intent to
    commit a crime.

    Here is a link to the photo that Peter Nap posted on the other thread:



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    Theyconveniently failed to print the exceptions that follow section (a) in section (d).

    (d) Subsection (a) shall not apply to - (1) the lawful performance of official duties by an officer, agent, or employee of the United States, a State, or a political subdivision thereof, who is authorized by law to engage in or supervise the prevention, detection, investigation, or prosecution of any violation of law; (2) the possession of a firearm or other dangerous weapon by a Federal official or a member of the Armed Forces if such possession is authorized by law; or (3) the lawful carrying of firearms or other dangerous weapons in a Federal facility incident to hunting or other lawful purposes.

    Read more: http://vlex.com/vid/possession-firearms-dangerous-weapons-19190845#ixzz0g6OXbb6B

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    VApatriot wrote:
    Theyconveniently failed to print the exceptions that follow section (a) in section (d).

    (d) Subsection (a) shall not apply to - (1) the lawful performance of official duties by an officer, agent, or employee of the United States, a State, or a political subdivision thereof, who is authorized by law to engage in or supervise the prevention, detection, investigation, or prosecution of any violation of law; (2) the possession of a firearm or other dangerous weapon by a Federal official or a member of the Armed Forces if such possession is authorized by law; or (3) the lawful carrying of firearms or other dangerous weapons in a Federal facility incident to hunting or other lawful purposes.

    Read more: http://vlex.com/vid/possession-firearms-dangerous-weapons-19190845#ixzz0g6OXbb6B
    All that's on the Bulletin board



    The NO GUNS sign is right beside the door, the Bulletin board is to the right



  25. #25
    Regular Member Neplusultra's Avatar
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    All this just grinds my gears so much. You have to argue back and forth to try and figure out what the hell the damn law says and then you're still not really sure.

    Why can't they just talk in plain english, in a paragraph structure that can be easily followed?

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