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Thread: How About We Vote On Your Rights?

  1. #1
    Campaign Veteran gogodawgs's Avatar
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    Very well written, not what I expected from the PI......

    (by the way, I own two Volvo's and two Mustang's and 20 or so firearms)

    http://blog.seattlepi.com/jacklewis/archives/194561.asp

    NO, YOU CAN'T HAVE MY RIGHTS
    I'M STILL USING THEM.

    --Popular bumper sticker in Seattle

    Inconveniently for our government, we require it to at least masquerade as "of the people, by the people, for the people" as Pres. Lincoln gracefully put it. Happily for politicians, that hurdle is set smirkingly low for the fear-mongering sociopaths we prefer to elect. There's nothing like promoting a culture of fear to breed enthusiasm for restricting the rights of others.

    We're supposed to fear jihadist terrorists imported to Kansas from Gitmo, and forget that we imported them to Gitmo in the first place. We don't need no stinkin' trial. String 'em up and sell their kidneys on eBay!

    We're supposed to fear the destruction of marriage if we "give" gay adults marital rights equivalent to adults who are not gay. Never mind that accusing gay marriage of undermining straight marriage is the logical equivalent of accusing the Winter Olympics of destroying the Summer Olympics. You know, it's not like that biathlete was suddenly going to start throwing the hammer.

    Thomas Jefferson remarked, "When the government fears the people, there is liberty. When the people fear the government, there is tyranny." So surely I'm not asking you to fear your government, thus running the risk (in the finest tradition of blaming the victim, tongue firmly welded to my zygomatic arch) of engendering tyranny thereby.

    Still I'm curious, in the wake of recent attempts by state Representatives Adam Kline (D-Seattle), Jeanne Kohl-Welles (D-Seattle) and Ross Hunter (D-Medina) to ban "assault weapons" and Seattle's Mayor Mike McGinn to restrict citizen possession of firearms, how we all became so well-trained to fear each other.

    Are you more afraid of your neighbor, the police, or ruling-class efforts to abridge rights enumerated in your state and federal constitutions?

    I've owned guns since I was a child. Are you afraid of me?

    Of course, guns are dangerous -- far less so than cars, but certainly dangerous and purposefully so. That's why your government owns millions of them: they are useful in applying directed force, whereas nuclear bombs are just really messy.

    The relevant civil rights question seems to be whether you want the biggest gun owner and most lethal weapon-using entity in today's world to decide whether you can be trusted to own a shootin' iron.

    The CDC reports that .01036 percent of U.S. residents were killed by civilian gunfire in 2006, the most recent year for which data is available. That figure includes homicide, suicide and accident.

    What percentage of our body politic was killed by the gunfire of police, FBI, BATF et al that year? That data is rather more closely held, and I challenge you to find a reliable number.

    As to how many human beings were killed by the assembled might of our Department of Defense in its global operations, I submit to you that while nobody really knows, a lot of Afghanis and Iraqis are clinging to their guns and Qur'ans.

    Few of the standard arguments against personal gun ownership stand up under scrutiny. Sure, nobody needs a gun (at least, we certainly hope not), but nobody needs a Beanie Baby, either. Or a shot of booze, or artificial boobs, or a floating house. Not a quality supporting argument here in the "land of the free," I think.

    And of course nobody needs an "assault rifle," which apparently is defined as anything that is black, military-themed or scary in any way. Never mind all those deer that were harvested by the Greatest Generation with sporterized military rifles liberated from the armories of World War II. Many times more people are murdered each year with hands, feet and expedient bludgeons than with "assault rifles."

    Personally, I think Volvos are scary (have you seen how Volvo drivers perform under pressure?), but an outright ban on Swedish cars would be pushing it.

    Outlawing destructive behaviors? I'm all for it. But arresting a sport shooter or off-duty security guard for carrying a gun makes as much sense as arresting a watchmaker for owning burglary tools. It's criminalizing a presumed intent based on apparent capability. It's legislating against unprovable ideation, "just in case."

    Outlawing weapons because they're dangerous? Please... All the best things in life are dangerous, starting with the human beings around you.

    Self defense is a fundamental human right. The safety and privacy of your home is a fundamental human right. We might do well to remember that police are capable of providing neither -- as is true of all rights. As agents of the state, police enforce laws that are made by politicians.

    The state cannot "grant" rights. It's a Boolean: rights are either intrinsic to human beings, or they're not rights at all. They're simply privileges, granted or revoked by benevolent leaders at their whim.

    To the extent that we allow it, the state abridges and restricts our rights in order to assure (not ensure) social stability. Since the state possesses no rights of its own, it cannot properly be said to defend them. Rights can only be defended by the people who possess them.

    Sadly, we citizens often fail to defend the rights we're not using right now. Groups demanding unpopular rights are marginalized, despised, laughed at and hounded.

    Imagine for a moment the courage it would require to throw a festive gay rights parade in a small town in northern Idaho, or even to walk hand-in-hand through the park with your homosexual partner. Now think about holding a polite gun show in a rented hall on Capitol Hill, or even walking through the park with a legally owned, permitted weapon.

    Of course, after Kyle Huff decided to bring guns to the party and killed half a dozen people at a Capitol Hill rave, sensitivities might be a bit tenderized there. Still, demonizing law-abiding gun owners on Kyle Huff's account is precisely as fair as demonizing the gay and BDSM communities based on Jeffrey Dahmer's psychopathic excesses.

    Outlying groups who took up arms when their rights and persons were bruised by society and the state include the rebellious founders of this country, Industrial Workers of the World, and the Black Panthers. Even Mohandas K. Ghandi wrote in his autobiography, "Among the many misdeeds of the British rule in India, history will look upon the act of depriving a whole nation of arms, as the blackest."

    You may feel that comparing gun rights activism with other forms of social activism is invidious, but the Pink Pistols don't seem to share your PC discomfort. Their rallying cry is "Armed Gays Don't Get Bashed," and their slogan is "Pick On Someone Your Own Caliber."

    There are no rights that we vest more or less than our other rights; no one right that is more precious than another. The populace's right to self-arm is ancient, absolute and specifically enshrined in your very own federal Bill of Rights, and again in the Constitution of the State of Washington.

    Those who wish to quibble at language and nibble at the edges of my right to keep and bear arms may expect to be referred to another trenchant slogan from the gay rights movement -- "How About We Vote On YOUR Rights?" -- or one adapted from abortion rights activists.

    Don't like guns? Don't buy one.

    Live Free or Die!

  2. #2
    Regular Member FMCDH's Avatar
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    Great article.

    Thanks for posting it gogodawgs.

  3. #3
    Regular Member Washintonian_For_Liberty's Avatar
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    Wow.... what happened? Did he get fired? Or are some of the less wacko libs starting to understand what it means to protect liberty?
    Associate with men of good quality if you esteem your own reputation; for it is better to be alone than in bad company. ~ George Washington

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    gogodawgs wrote:
    Pink Pistols
    Ahahahahahaahah! I'm sureI missed the rest of your Hello Kitty collection. :?

  5. #5
    Regular Member sudden valley gunner's Avatar
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    Wow very well written.
    I am not anti Cop I am just pro Citizen.

    U.S. v. Minker, 350 US 179, at page 187
    "Because of what appears to be a lawful command on the surface, many citizens, because
    of their respect for what only appears to be a law, are cunningly coerced into waiving their
    rights, due to ignorance." (Paraphrased)

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    Your words bring me to this question or questions:

    I have in the last few months done 4 things in this order:

    1. Got my Concealed Pistol License.
    2. Bought a Beretta PX4 Storm .40 S&W
    3. Bought a Bersa Thunder .380
    4. Joined 2 gun rights forums

    My questions are this:

    I understand Washington see's and honors our 2A right.

    BUT ....... (this is where I think we might lose our 2A right)

    As I read in and around these forums I see so many restrictions being placed on where you can carry ..... whether it be open or concealed. It's like the "Powers to be" are saying; For now let's not infringe on their 2A right, lets just hassle the crap out of them with restrictions all over the dam place.

    Some days I get confident about my 2A right and carry all day long not giving a crap about whether or not I am violating some stupid code and other days I think "What if I get caught" do I want to lose all I worked for ? Sometimes I feel like if I walk off my land across the street to get the mail I am breaking a law, code, or WTF ever some dumb-azzed politician with a bad comb over says makes him/her fear for their life.

    Anyway ....... hope you find the question in my blowing off steam post

  7. #7
    Regular Member FMCDH's Avatar
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    Bersa.380 wrote:
    As I read in and around these forums I see so many restrictions being placed on where you can carry ..... whether it be open or concealed. It's like the "Powers to be" are saying; For now let's not infringe on their 2A right, lets just hassle the crap out of them with restrictions all over the dam place.

    Some days I get confident about my 2A right and carry all day long not giving a crap about whether or not I am violating some stupid code and other days I think "What if I get caught" do I want to lose all I worked for ? Sometimes I feel like if I walk off my land across the street to get the mail I am breaking a law, code, or WTF ever some dumb-azzed politician with a bad comb over says makes him/her fear for their life.

    Anyway ....... hope you find the question in my blowing off steam post
    Which is exactly WHY state preemption is so important to keep, defend, and when possible, strengthen through litigation like was just won against Seattle.

    Washington has a lot of little hassles going on right now, but the actual RIGHT to carry in our state is amazingly in our favor with very few restrictions by comparison of most other states.

    Remember!

    Regardless of the any othercode, rule, or "law", state preemption is quite clear about other laws being passed by any other body but the legislature. Anything that conflicts or exceeds is automatically repealed, and doesn't exist, no mater how much a city's or county'sMayor or council may want it to.

    Worry yourself about knowing the laws that matter, not all the little rules and codes that for all intents and purposes, don't exist by rule of superior law.

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    FMCDH wrote:
    Bersa.380 wrote:
    As I read in and around these forums I see so many restrictions being placed on where you can carry ..... whether it be open or concealed. It's like the "Powers to be" are saying; For now let's not infringe on their 2A right, lets just hassle the crap out of them with restrictions all over the dam place.

    Some days I get confident about my 2A right and carry all day long not giving a crap about whether or not I am violating some stupid code and other days I think "What if I get caught" do I want to lose all I worked for ? Sometimes I feel like if I walk off my land across the street to get the mail I am breaking a law, code, or WTF ever some dumb-azzed politician with a bad comb over says makes him/her fear for their life.

    Anyway ....... hope you find the question in my blowing off steam post
    Which is exactly WHY state preemption is so important to keep, defend, and when possible, strengthen through litigation like was just won against Seattle.

    Washington has a lot of little hassles going on right now, but the actual RIGHT to carry in our state is amazingly in our favor with very few restrictions by comparison of most other states.

    Remember!

    Regardless of the any othercode, rule, or "law", state preemption is quite clear about other laws being passed by any other body but the legislature. Anything that conflicts or exceeds is automatically repealed, and doesn't exist, no mater how much a city's or county'sMayor or council may want it to.

    Worry yourself about knowing the laws that matter, not all the little rules and codes that for all intents and purposes, don't exist by rule of superior law.
    OK, I think I understand what you are saying ? For the sake of debate and learning .....

    My beautiful girlfriend and I like to get a cheap steak from time to time on a friday night after a hard weeks work at the Buzz Inn

    So, I am sitting holding her hand while we are waiting for our food, some dill-weed comes in and opens fire with a pistol, like the McCabes shooting in Everett a few weeks ago ..... she points at me .... fires a round in my direction .... I pull out my .40 and with one swift move get lucky and stick a Gold Dot in her forehead .... she drops to the floor ... 911 is called .... her cheating BF pisses himself .... I holster my PX4, sit down, pull out my CPL and ID and wait, do I go to jail because they serve alcohol and the Buzz Inn had a "No Carry" ban ?

    Just trying to learn guys/gals !!!!!

  9. #9
    Regular Member trevorthebusdriver's Avatar
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    Re: Pink Pistols
    Every month they send me an email that says they are having a meet up at a range and to RSVP for the location. Every month I do, and nobody emails back so I can't go. What's the deal?

  10. #10
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    1. Do you live in red canyon or rogue canyon?

    2. Is the establishment 21+ only or not?

    3. It would seem a good time to go to judicial appeal and finally overturn the asinine ban as an infringement of our article 1 section 24 rights (NOT 2A, which does not yet apply to the states)
    "If we were to ever consider citizenship as the least bit matter of merit instead of birthright, imagine who should be selected as deserved representation of our democracy: someone who would risk their daily livelihood to cast an individually statistically insignificant vote, or those who wrap themselves in the flag against slightest slights." - agenthex

  11. #11
    Regular Member FMCDH's Avatar
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    Bersa.380 wrote:
    OK, I think I understand what you are saying ? For the sake of debate and learning .....

    My beautiful girlfriend and I like to get a cheap steak from time to time on a friday night after a hard weeks work at the Buzz Inn

    So, I am sitting holding her hand while we are waiting for our food, some dill-weed comes in and opens fire with a pistol, like the McCabes shooting in Everett a few weeks ago ..... she points at me .... fires a round in my direction .... I pull out my .40 and with one swift move get lucky and stick a Gold Dot in her forehead .... she drops to the floor ... 911 is called .... her cheating BF pisses himself .... I holster my PX4, sit down, pull out my CPL and ID and wait, do I go to jail because they serve alcohol and the Buzz Inn had a "No Carry" ban ?

    Just trying to learn guys/gals !!!!!
    All the drama leading up toyour questions in the end apart, it is not illegal to carry a firearm in establishments that serve alcohol, only...

    http://apps.leg.wa.gov/RCW/default.aspx?cite=9.41.300

    (d) That portion of an establishment classified by the state liquor control board as off-limits to persons under twenty-one years of age.

    Buzz Inn having a "no carry" ban, has no barring on your going to jail in this situation unless you are in violation of a previous no tress-pass order. Signage on private property has no rule of law in Washington.

    And yes, its very possible you will go to jail even if you were in the right for the shooting, but if there were witnesses, chances are, when all is said and investigated, you may not.

    You will almost assuredly loose that firearm as evidence to a shooting however, until you are cleared of any possible charges that the PA may bring.

    Hope that answers your questions.

  12. #12
    Campaign Veteran ak56's Avatar
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    Bersa.380 wrote:
    FMCDH wrote:
    Bersa.380 wrote:
    As I read in and around these forums I see so many restrictions being placed on where you can carry ..... whether it be open or concealed. It's like the "Powers to be" are saying; For now let's not infringe on their 2A right, lets just hassle the crap out of them with restrictions all over the dam place.

    Some days I get confident about my 2A right and carry all day long not giving a crap about whether or not I am violating some stupid code and other days I think "What if I get caught" do I want to lose all I worked for ? Sometimes I feel like if I walk off my land across the street to get the mail I am breaking a law, code, or WTF ever some dumb-azzed politician with a bad comb over says makes him/her fear for their life.

    Anyway ....... hope you find the question in my blowing off steam post
    Which is exactly WHY state preemption is so important to keep, defend, and when possible, strengthen through litigation like was just won against Seattle.

    Washington has a lot of little hassles going on right now, but the actual RIGHT to carry in our state is amazingly in our favor with very few restrictions by comparison of most other states.

    Remember!

    Regardless of the any othercode, rule, or "law", state preemption is quite clear about other laws being passed by any other body but the legislature. Anything that conflicts or exceeds is automatically repealed, and doesn't exist, no mater how much a city's or county'sMayor or council may want it to.

    Worry yourself about knowing the laws that matter, not all the little rules and codes that for all intents and purposes, don't exist by rule of superior law.
    OK, I think I understand what you are saying ? For the sake of debate and learning .....

    My beautiful girlfriend and I like to get a cheap steak from time to time on a friday night after a hard weeks work at the Buzz Inn

    So, I am sitting holding her hand while we are waiting for our food, some dill-weed comes in and opens fire with a pistol, like the McCabes shooting in Everett a few weeks ago ..... she points at me .... fires a round in my direction .... I pull out my .40 and with one swift move get lucky and stick a Gold Dot in her forehead .... she drops to the floor ... 911 is called .... her cheating BF pisses himself .... I holster my PX4, sit down, pull out my CPL and ID and wait, do I go to jail because they serve alcohol and the Buzz Inn had a "No Carry" ban ?

    Just trying to learn guys/gals !!!!!
    Standard Disclaimer - I am not a lawyer.


    If you are not in a restricted 21-and-over bar area, you are legal to carry, regardless of whether they serve alcohol in the area in which you are seated. If the Buzz Inn has a No Carry policy, all they can do is ask you to leave, and trespass you if you refuse.

    So you won't go to jail because they serve alcohol or the No Carry ban.

    Atr the point in your story where you "pull out my CPL and ID and wait", you may want to substitute "call my lawyer".

    I can't say for certain that you won't spend any time in jail. If the police don't like your story, they may just let the courts sort it out. That's why you've called your lawyer.

    For state laws, read the sections ofRCW 9.41. Also the FAQ section at the top of the Washington section of the forum.




    No right is held more sacred, or is more carefully guarded, by the common law than the right of every individual to the possession and control of his own person, free from all restraint or interference of others, unless by clear and unquestionable authority of law. Union Pacific Rail Co. vs Botsford as quoted in Terry v Ohio.


    Talk to your cats about catnip - before it's too late.

  13. #13
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    ak56 wrote:
    Bersa.380 wrote:
    FMCDH wrote:
    Bersa.380 wrote:
    As I read in and around these forums I see so many restrictions being placed on where you can carry ..... whether it be open or concealed. It's like the "Powers to be" are saying; For now let's not infringe on their 2A right, lets just hassle the crap out of them with restrictions all over the dam place.

    Some days I get confident about my 2A right and carry all day long not giving a crap about whether or not I am violating some stupid code and other days I think "What if I get caught" do I want to lose all I worked for ? Sometimes I feel like if I walk off my land across the street to get the mail I am breaking a law, code, or WTF ever some dumb-azzed politician with a bad comb over says makes him/her fear for their life.

    Anyway ....... hope you find the question in my blowing off steam post
    Which is exactly WHY state preemption is so important to keep, defend, and when possible, strengthen through litigation like was just won against Seattle.

    Washington has a lot of little hassles going on right now, but the actual RIGHT to carry in our state is amazingly in our favor with very few restrictions by comparison of most other states.

    Remember!

    Regardless of the any othercode, rule, or "law", state preemption is quite clear about other laws being passed by any other body but the legislature. Anything that conflicts or exceeds is automatically repealed, and doesn't exist, no mater how much a city's or county'sMayor or council may want it to.

    Worry yourself about knowing the laws that matter, not all the little rules and codes that for all intents and purposes, don't exist by rule of superior law.
    OK, I think I understand what you are saying ? For the sake of debate and learning .....

    My beautiful girlfriend and I like to get a cheap steak from time to time on a friday night after a hard weeks work at the Buzz Inn

    So, I am sitting holding her hand while we are waiting for our food, some dill-weed comes in and opens fire with a pistol, like the McCabes shooting in Everett a few weeks ago ..... she points at me .... fires a round in my direction .... I pull out my .40 and with one swift move get lucky and stick a Gold Dot in her forehead .... she drops to the floor ... 911 is called .... her cheating BF pisses himself .... I holster my PX4, sit down, pull out my CPL and ID and wait, do I go to jail because they serve alcohol and the Buzz Inn had a "No Carry" ban ?

    Just trying to learn guys/gals !!!!!
    Standard Disclaimer - I am not a lawyer.


    If you are not in a restricted 21-and-over bar area, you are legal to carry, regardless of whether they serve alcohol in the area in which you are seated. If the Buzz Inn has a No Carry policy, all they can do is ask you to leave, and trespass you if you refuse.

    So you won't go to jail because they serve alcohol or the No Carry ban.

    Atr the point in your story where you "pull out my CPL and ID and wait", you may want to substitute "call my lawyer".

    I can't say for certain that you won't spend any time in jail. If the police don't like your story, they may just let the courts sort it out. That's why you've called your lawyer.

    For state laws, read the sections ofRCW 9.41. Also the FAQ section at the top of the Washington section of the forum.



    Got it ... ... thanks !!!!!

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    ak56 wrote:
    If the Buzz Inn has a No Carry policy, all they can do is ask you to leave, and trespass you if you refuse.
    I eat regularly at the Buzz Inn, several different locations. No one has ever said a word to me about a no-carry policy.

  15. #15
    Regular Member FMCDH's Avatar
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    heresolong wrote:
    ak56 wrote:
    If the Buzz Inn has a No Carry policy, all they can do is ask you to leave, and trespass you if you refuse.
    I eat regularly at the Buzz Inn, several different locations. No one has ever said a word to me about a no-carry policy.
    I believe Buzz Inn was just a location off the top of his head for the sake of the scenario he was paining.

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    FMCDH wrote:
    heresolong wrote:
    ak56 wrote:
    If the Buzz Inn has a No Carry policy, all they can do is ask you to leave, and trespass you if you refuse.
    I eat regularly at the Buzz Inn, several different locations. No one has ever said a word to me about a no-carry policy.
    I believe Buzz Inn was just a location off the top of his head for the sake of the scenario he was paining.

    Yup ... ... just using the Buzz Inn as a local-senario, BUT ... ... I do like their 6oz. top-sirloin while I carry my PX4-Storm on my side !


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    HOW about doing a copy and past your article to the Tennessee portion of these forms! Great article share it around for all to read. TNKS.

  18. #18
    Campaign Veteran gogodawgs's Avatar
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    Handgunonly wrote:
    HOW about doing a copy and past your article to the Tennessee portion of these forms! Great article share it around for all to read. TNKS.
    Feel free, it is not mine but a columnist from a local paper.
    Live Free or Die!

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