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Thread: Tuscaloosa City Council to violate preemption and ban handgun carry in city buildings!

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    I wonder if this would pass a legal challenge.

    http://www.tuscaloosanews.com/articl...ilding-gun-ban

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    I love how the city attorney admitted that it was illegal for them to restrict handgun possession, yet they could make anyone possessing a gun into a tresspasser. I don't understand how anyone can be a tresspasser on 'public' property.

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    I just called and left a voice mail for the city clerk to see when and if they will hold a public hearing on the proposed ordiance - are their any Alabama open carruiers that can help organize oppositin to this preemption violation and spear head an open crry talk-in at the city council meeting ifthey hold one ?

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    I dont understand where they are going with this - Alabama state preemption seems rock solid, especially for andguns, see http://www.lcav.org/states/Alabama.a...ibutionofPower

    Any thoughts from you Alabama experts.

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    This is clearly the most boneheaded law I've ever seen. In the first place, if you're going to shoot someone out of maliciousness, you don't do it with a rifle. And handguns are a matter reserved to the state, so that matter will have to be handled at the state level. All this does is make it a crime to walk in with a weapon.

    What if you don't own a handgun and you showed up on foot? There's nothing you can do except take the gun home and come back later. This is some seriously messed up legislation.
    It takes a village to raise an idiot.

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    Mike, I don't see how we could get away with us OC'ing at a council meeting without being in danger of violation the demonstration law.

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    Regular Member Thundar's Avatar
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    KillBoxAlpha wrote:
    I love how the city attorney admitted that it was illegal for them to restrict handgun possession, yet they could make anyone possessing a gun into a tresspasser. I don't understand how anyone can be a tresspasser on 'public' property.
    Do they have open meeting laws there?
    He wore his gun outside his pants for all the honest world to see. Pancho & Lefty

    The millions of people, armed in the holy cause of liberty, and in such a country as that which we possess, are invincible by any force which our enemy can send against us....There is no retreat but in submission and slavery! ...The war is inevitableand let it come! I repeat it, Sir, let it come . PATRICK HENRY speech 1776

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    KillBoxAlpha wrote:
    Mike, I don't see how we could get away with us OC'ing at a council meeting without being in danger of violation the demonstration law.
    What demonstration law?

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    Section 13A-11-59 - Possession of firearms by persons participating in, attending, etc., demonstrations at public places.

    (a) For the purposes of this section, the following words and phrases shall have the meanings respectively ascribed to them in this subsection, except in those instances where the context clearly indicates a different meaning:

    (1) DEMONSTRATION. Demonstrating, picketing, speechmaking or marching, holding of vigils and all other like forms of conduct which involve the communication or expression of views or grievances engaged in by one or more persons, the conduct of which has the effect, intent or propensity to draw a crowd or onlookers. Such term shall not include casual use of property by visitors or tourists which does not have an intent or propensity to attract a crowd or onlookers.


    ....snip....


    (b) It shall be unlawful for any person, other than a law enforcement officer, to have in his or her possession or on his or her person or in any vehicle any firearm while participating in or attending any demonstration being held at a public place.

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    KillBoxAlpha wrote:
    Section 13A-11-59 - Possession of firearms by persons participating in, attending, etc., demonstrations at public places.

    (a) For the purposes of this section, the following words and phrases shall have the meanings respectively ascribed to them in this subsection, except in those instances where the context clearly indicates a different meaning:

    (1) DEMONSTRATION. Demonstrating, picketing, speechmaking or marching, holding of vigils and all other like forms of conduct which involve the communication or expression of views or grievances engaged in by one or more persons, the conduct of which has the effect, intent or propensity to draw a crowd or onlookers. Such term shall not include casual use of property by visitors or tourists which does not have an intent or propensity to attract a crowd or onlookers.


    ....snip....


    (b) It shall be unlawful for any person, other than a law enforcement officer, to have in his or her possession or on his or her person or in any vehicle any firearm while participating in or attending any demonstration being held at a public place.
    I don;t see howattending a public meeting to speak rises to a demonstration under this statute - any case law saying otherwise?

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    Thundar wrote:
    KillBoxAlpha wrote:
    I love how the city attorney admitted that it was illegal for them to restrict handgun possession, yet they could make anyone possessing a gun into a tresspasser. I don't understand how anyone can be a tresspasser on 'public' property.
    Do they have open meeting laws there?
    In the state, yes. In Tuscaloosa? Who knows. There have been places fined before because of having secret meetings. One politician of my youth used to have meetings in his car out in the parking lot.

    I had another thought here. The smart thing to do, when you have 20 men who showed up at a city council meeting with shotguns, is immediately deputize them into the state militia and order them to be seated.

    Any action they do after that point in subject to another set of laws... I don't know if that's what Andy Taylor would have done, but Andy Taylor had a sharper mind than most of the ones that went into public service in Alabama
    It takes a village to raise an idiot.

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    Mike wrote:
    KillBoxAlpha wrote:
    Section 13A-11-59 - Possession of firearms by persons participating in, attending, etc., demonstrations at public places.

    (a) For the purposes of this section, the following words and phrases shall have the meanings respectively ascribed to them in this subsection, except in those instances where the context clearly indicates a different meaning:

    (1) DEMONSTRATION. Demonstrating, picketing, speechmaking or marching, holding of vigils and all other like forms of conduct which involve the communication or expression of views or grievances engaged in by one or more persons, the conduct of which has the effect, intent or propensity to draw a crowd or onlookers. Such term shall not include casual use of property by visitors or tourists which does not have an intent or propensity to attract a crowd or onlookers.


    ....snip....


    (b) It shall be unlawful for any person, other than a law enforcement officer, to have in his or her possession or on his or her person or in any vehicle any firearm while participating in or attending any demonstration being held at a public place.
    I don;t see howattending a public meeting to speak rises to a demonstration under this statute - any case law saying otherwise?

    I certainly agree with your logic. However, just two weeks ago OC members who were planning a dinner at a Birmingham, Al restaurant were told by city attorneys and police officials that any such assembly would be considered a demonstration and thereby illegal and subject to immediate arrest. The dinner was subsequently canceled.

    I know the situations are different, yet if 'officials' believe a private dinner among friend falls under the demonstration law then what might they say about a group of 5-10 OC'ers showing up at a council meeting?

    We do need organization in Alabama and we need it fast. The laws are good and in our favor, yet the LEO's are generally so illinformed that it seems impossible to go about a normal days activity without being harassed in some manner. Hopefully we'll be able to snuff this bs out before it explodes.

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    Thundar wrote:
    KillBoxAlpha wrote:
    I love how the city attorney admitted that it was illegal for them to restrict handgun possession, yet they could make anyone possessing a gun into a tresspasser. I don't understand how anyone can be a tresspasser on 'public' property.
    Do they have open meeting laws there?
    Yes. The Alabama Open Meetings Act commands that “[i]t is the policy of this state that the deliberative process of governmental bodies shall be open to the public.” Alabama Open Meetings Act at Section 1 (emphasis added).

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    I find this amazing. Here in Michigan we OC right into our local board meetings. We've even posted it on youtube. It is a public place so we are allowed.
    Only two have offered their lives for you. A Soldier and Jesus....

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    SlowDog wrote:
    I find this amazing. Here in Michigan we OC right into our local board meetings. We've even posted it on youtube. It is a public place so we are allowed.
    Road trip?

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    Bottom line..., it is ILLEGAL forTuscaloosa County, Alabama, or any City therein, to violate either Alabama State Law 11-45-1.1 OR 11-80-11.

    There is nothing under those Laws that authorize an exception.

    One may Open Carry any Firearm or Weapon in Alabama as long as He is not prohibited from doing so under Alabama State Law 13A-11-72, concerning Pistols, or 18 U.S.C. 922(d) concerning any other Firearm.

    Hand-held Weapons are not regulated by The United States Federal Government, but are regulated, to some degree, by Alabama. Alabama regulates them under, generally, 13A-11-50..., Carrying a Concealed Weapon. Case and point, if it is not Concealed, then,NO Law is broken.

    Tuscaloosa is not above Alabama State Law, they just think that they are.

    However, we here on Open Carry know better!

    P.S.: There is no such thing as Criminal Tresspassing on Public Property, with a close range exception to being on that Property when it is clearly Closed. However, it is within my belief, andas a strict opinion, that this applies only to Buildings, but notopen-areas..., suchas Parks.

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    aadvark wrote:
    Bottom line..., it is ILLEGAL for*Tuscaloosa County, Alabama, or any City therein, to violate either Alabama State Law 11-45-1.1 OR 11-80-11.

    There is nothing under those Laws that authorize an exception.

    One may Open Carry any Firearm or Weapon in Alabama as long as He is not prohibited from doing so under Alabama State Law 13A-11-72, concerning Pistols, or 18 U.S.C. 922(d) concerning any other Firearm.

    Hand-held Weapons are not regulated by The United States Federal Government, but are regulated, to some degree, by Alabama.* Alabama regulates them under, generally, 13A-11-50..., Carrying a Concealed Weapon.* Case and point, if it is not Concealed, then,*NO Law is broken.

    Tuscaloosa is not above Alabama State Law, they just think that they are.

    However, we here on Open Carry know better!

    P.S.:* There is no such thing as Criminal Tresspassing on Public Property, with a close range exception to being on that Property when it is clearly Closed.* However, it is within my belief, and*as a strict opinion, that this applies only to Buildings, but not*open-areas..., such*as Parks.*
    Exactly. So what is our course of action here? I live just outside Tuscaloosa county. I can certainly help out with anything yall suggest.

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    KillBoxAlpha wrote:
    Exactly. So what is our course of action here? I live just outside Tuscaloosa county. I can certainly help out with anything yall suggest.
    I called the City Clerk yesterday - she said to check her web site every Friday after 2PM to see if the council meeting the following week would include any item related to the possible gun carry ban ordiance.

    Who lives in Tuscaloosa and can step forward to lead an effort to mass email the council and attend meetings?

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    <insert crickets chirping sound here>

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    I live in Tuscaloosa County, and I'm afraid that the County elected officials are as ignorant, or out right billligerent toward open carry and public building carry as are the City officials. I have been told out right to my face by the sheriff that open carry is illegal. On the other hand a Tuscaloosa City Police officer told me that he knew it was legal to open carry per certain restrictions ie. in a vehicle,and prohibited persons.

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    Mike I chatted with you back in May of 2009 via email when I was asking for advice when I was planning a litter pickup. Now you understand why I contacted you for advise. This is exactly the kinda thing we are dealing with down here. The quote in your facebook message: " when I called a city official told me that open carry was illegal in Alabama " is all to familiar. That is exactly what I have heard from every LEO I've talked to about it as well.

    The OC laws are foggy at best, the LEO's don't know them or interpret them their own way. I went forward with the litter pickup anyways and had a grand total of 3 people, including myself, and my brother. As discouraging as that was I still try and do what I can. I email my representatives with very in depth info and a list of changes that need to be made to our laws. Heck, I even email some of the other representatives that aren't even in my district, especially the one who introduce progun bills.

    Having said that, I am a few hours away from Tuscaloosa, but would be willing to show up and help in any way I can. This isn't gonna change by people hiding behind forums and computer screens, we gotta come together and get out there and stand up for our rights live and in person.

    Mike I hope you do come, we need all the help we can get!

    If you want my contact info so I can help in any way I can, just shoot me an email, I'll get ya my number. -Jason

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    Count me in as well.


    Think someone could draft a sample letter to send to city council members? My parents live in Tuscaloosa so i can use their address.

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    I was thinking about this tresspassing nonsense. Can you register to vote in a city building?

    It would be really bad for a city in Alabama to interfere with somebodies voting rights.
    He wore his gun outside his pants for all the honest world to see. Pancho & Lefty

    The millions of people, armed in the holy cause of liberty, and in such a country as that which we possess, are invincible by any force which our enemy can send against us....There is no retreat but in submission and slavery! ...The war is inevitableand let it come! I repeat it, Sir, let it come . PATRICK HENRY speech 1776

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    Dianosis wrote:
    The OC laws are foggy at best
    No, the courts and attornies genneral of Alabama of cleared away the fog.

    Now while it is true that one Alabama statute which on its face appears to raise a red flag as to carrying handguns outside one’s own premises: Section 13A-11-52 (“Carrying pistol on premises not his own; who may carry pistol”), which provides:


    Except as otherwise provided in this article, no person shall carry a pistol about his person on premises not his own or under his control; but this section shall not apply to any sheriff or his deputy or police officer of an incorporated town or city in the lawful discharge of the duties of his office, or to United States marshal or his deputies, rural free delivery mail carriers in the discharge of their duties as such, bonded constables in the discharge of their duties as such, conductors, railway mail clerks and express messengers in the discharge of their duties.
    Alabama Code Section 13A-11-52.



    However it turns out that both the Courts and Attorneys General of Alabama have held that Section 13A-11-52 is only violated if there is also a violation of Section 13A-11-73.



    Generally, in most states, and in Alabama, “a permit is not required when a person afoot carries an unconcealed pistol. This analysis comports with an Attorney General's opinion by then Assistant Attorney General Gallion on this statute before the 1956 amendment which transplanted the word 'concealed' from being immediatelybefore ‘in any vehicle’ to its present place in the section. There it is said: ‘* * * a person may carry an unconcealed and unlicensed pistol anywhere, either on his own property, * * * on the public highways, public property or the land of another person without violating either Section 163, supra, or Section 175, as amended, supra, * * *’ -- Quarterly Reports of Attorney General, Vol. 79, p. 31, 35.” Looney v. State[/i], 41 Ala. App. 582, 583 (Ala. Ct. App. 1962) (emphasis added).



    It is true that the text of “Section 13A-11-52 . . . does not permit the carrying of a pistol outside of a person's own premises under any circumstances. However, that section does begin with the phrase ‘except as otherwise provided in this article.’ Section 13A-11-73 clearly allows a person with a pistol license to carry a pistol in a vehicle or concealed on the person. Furthermore, in Morris v. State[/i][/b], 342 So. 2d 417, 418 (Ala. Cr. App. 1977), and Looney v. State[/i][/b], 41 Ala. App. 582, 141 So. 2d 535, 536 (1962), this court held that § 13A-11-73 does not prohibit carrying an unlicensed pistolif the pistol is unconcealed and the person is on foot. . . . Section 13A-11-52 applies only the extent that it is consistent with § 13A-11-73 because it is ‘the later statute and a complete revision of the subject matter.’ Braxton[/i][/b], 350 So. 2d at 755. Therefore, the state should have been required to prove all of the elements of a violation of § 13A-11-73.” C.D.J. v. State[/i], 671 So. 2d 139, 142 (Ala. Crim. App. 1995) (emphasis added).See also[/i] 2006 Ala. AG LEXIS 145 (Ala. AG 2006)(“Section 13A-11-52 of the Code of Alabama . . . must be read with section 13A-11-73 of the Code of Alabama, which states that "[n]o person shall carry a pistol in any vehicle or concealed on or about his person, except on his land, in his own abode or fixed place of business, without a license therefore as hereinafter provided." ALA. CODE § 13A-11-73 (2006).”); 1984 Ala. AG Op. #84-00205 (“Section 13A-11-73 takes precedence [over Section 13A-11-52] (citing to Braxton v. State[/i][/b], 350 So.2d 753 (1977)), available at http://www.ago.state.al.us/oldopinions/8400205.pdf.



    Having established that it is not a violation of Section 13A-11-52 to enter premises such as Tuscaloosa City Hall if carrying pistols consistent with the commands of Section 13A-11-73 (e.g., unconcealed and properly holstered pistols), it should also be noted that in Alabama, like most states, localities are preempted from enacting handgun regulations of virtually any type.


    In 1982, Alabama enacted a specific handgun-related preemption statute, Alabama Code § 11-45-1.1, which states:



    No incorporated municipality shall have the power to enact any ordinance, rule, or regulation which shall tax, restrict, prevent, or in any way affect the possession or ownership of handguns by the citizens of this state. The entire subject matter of handguns is reserved to the State Legislature. This section shall not be construed to limit or restrict the power of a municipality to adopt ordinances which make the violation of a state handgun law a violation of a municipal ordinance to the same extent as other state law violations, or to limit or restrict the power of a municipal court to exercise concurrent jurisdiction with the district court over violations of state handgun laws which may be prosecuted as breaches of a municipal ordinance.



    In Ex parte Childers, 640 So. 2d 16 (1994), the Supreme Court of Alabama found a municipal ordinance prohibiting the possession of all firearms, including handguns, on the premises of any business maintaining a "lounge retail liquor license" to be preempted by section 11-45-1.1 (despite the fact that § 11-45-1.1 relates only to handguns, and does not proscribe local regulation of other firearms).



    Alabama Attorney General opinions have reinforced the total preemptive effect of section 11-45-1.1 on municipal handgun regulation. For example, the Attorney General has opined that under section 11-45-1.1, municipalities have no authority to enact any ordinance dealing with handguns. 1984 Ala. AG LEXIS 3, 197 Op. Att'y Gen. Ala. 26 (December 3, 1984), and 1987 Ala. AG LEXIS 2, 209 Op. Att'y Gen. Ala. 41 (December 18, 1987). The Attorney General has stated that while a municipality may not adopt a workplace violence prevention policy for its employees prohibiting employees from possessing handguns in the workplace, the municipality may adopt a policy prohibiting possession of any other type of weapon by employees. 2001 Ala. AG LEXIS 163, No. 2001-267 (August 28, 2001).
    Legal Community Against Violence at http://www.lcav.org/states/Alabama.a...ibutionofPower.



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    Y'all listen up, I have Open Carried a LoadedPistol in: Cherokee, Clay, Cleburne,DeKalb, Etowah,Roanoake, and JacksonCounties.

    A'int runnin' scared neither....,but y'all would not believe howMANY times MWAG!

    Normally, I do not write that way, but itis an effort to getmy point across.

    The Sheriff of Tuscaloosa County is WRONG. Open Carry in Alabama is LEGAL!

    Unfortunately, I do not have any way of getting out to Tuscaloosa County in time for the Meeting.

    Believe me though, if I did, I would make front page news. Not by a mug-shot, but, rather, a Piscture of my Pistol in my Holster, at the stand in the Meeting Room.

    The Sheriff is not above the Law, so go out and hold Him to the Law.

    13A-11-73is above 13A-11-52. 11-45-1.1 and 11-80-11 are above Tuscaloosa County. There is no Law,anywhere under13A-11-X, that Illegalizes Carry into Public Buildings in Alabama.

    That is the bottom line.

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