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Tuscaloosa City Council to violate preemption and ban handgun carry in city buildings!

KillBoxAlpha

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I love how the city attorney admitted that it was illegal for them to restrict handgun possession, yet they could make anyone possessing a gun into a tresspasser. I don't understand how anyone can be a tresspasser on 'public' property.
 

Mike

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I just called and left a voice mail for the city clerk to see when and if they will hold a public hearing on the proposed ordiance - are their any Alabama open carruiers that can help organize oppositin to this preemption violation and spear head an open crry talk-in at the city council meeting ifthey hold one ?
 

Kirbinator

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This is clearly the most boneheaded law I've ever seen. In the first place, if you're going to shoot someone out of maliciousness, you don't do it with a rifle. And handguns are a matter reserved to the state, so that matter will have to be handled at the state level. All this does is make it a crime to walk in with a weapon.

What if you don't own a handgun and you showed up on foot? There's nothing you can do except take the gun home and come back later. This is some seriously messed up legislation.
 

KillBoxAlpha

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Mike, I don't see how we could get away with us OC'ing at a council meeting without being in danger of violation the demonstration law.
 

Thundar

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KillBoxAlpha wrote:
I love how the city attorney admitted that it was illegal for them to restrict handgun possession, yet they could make anyone possessing a gun into a tresspasser. I don't understand how anyone can be a tresspasser on 'public' property.
Do they have open meeting laws there?
 

KillBoxAlpha

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Section 13A-11-59 - Possession of firearms by persons participating in, attending, etc., demonstrations at public places.

(a) For the purposes of this section, the following words and phrases shall have the meanings respectively ascribed to them in this subsection, except in those instances where the context clearly indicates a different meaning:

(1) DEMONSTRATION. Demonstrating, picketing, speechmaking or marching, holding of vigils and all other like forms of conduct which involve the communication or expression of views or grievances engaged in by one or more persons, the conduct of which has the effect, intent or propensity to draw a crowd or onlookers. Such term shall not include casual use of property by visitors or tourists which does not have an intent or propensity to attract a crowd or onlookers.


....snip....


(b) It shall be unlawful for any person, other than a law enforcement officer, to have in his or her possession or on his or her person or in any vehicle any firearm while participating in or attending any demonstration being held at a public place.
 

Mike

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KillBoxAlpha wrote:
Section 13A-11-59 - Possession of firearms by persons participating in, attending, etc., demonstrations at public places.

(a) For the purposes of this section, the following words and phrases shall have the meanings respectively ascribed to them in this subsection, except in those instances where the context clearly indicates a different meaning:

(1) DEMONSTRATION. Demonstrating, picketing, speechmaking or marching, holding of vigils and all other like forms of conduct which involve the communication or expression of views or grievances engaged in by one or more persons, the conduct of which has the effect, intent or propensity to draw a crowd or onlookers. Such term shall not include casual use of property by visitors or tourists which does not have an intent or propensity to attract a crowd or onlookers.


....snip....


(b) It shall be unlawful for any person, other than a law enforcement officer, to have in his or her possession or on his or her person or in any vehicle any firearm while participating in or attending any demonstration being held at a public place.
I don;t see howattending a public meeting to speak rises to a demonstration under this statute - any case law saying otherwise?
 

Kirbinator

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Thundar wrote:
KillBoxAlpha wrote:
I love how the city attorney admitted that it was illegal for them to restrict handgun possession, yet they could make anyone possessing a gun into a tresspasser. I don't understand how anyone can be a tresspasser on 'public' property.
Do they have open meeting laws there?
In the state, yes. In Tuscaloosa? Who knows. There have been places fined before because of having secret meetings. One politician of my youth used to have meetings in his car out in the parking lot.

I had another thought here. The smart thing to do, when you have 20 men who showed up at a city council meeting with shotguns, is immediately deputize them into the state militia and order them to be seated.

Any action they do after that point in subject to another set of laws... I don't know if that's what Andy Taylor would have done, but Andy Taylor had a sharper mind than most of the ones that went into public service in Alabama
 

KillBoxAlpha

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Mike wrote:
KillBoxAlpha wrote:
Section 13A-11-59 - Possession of firearms by persons participating in, attending, etc., demonstrations at public places.

(a) For the purposes of this section, the following words and phrases shall have the meanings respectively ascribed to them in this subsection, except in those instances where the context clearly indicates a different meaning:

(1) DEMONSTRATION. Demonstrating, picketing, speechmaking or marching, holding of vigils and all other like forms of conduct which involve the communication or expression of views or grievances engaged in by one or more persons, the conduct of which has the effect, intent or propensity to draw a crowd or onlookers. Such term shall not include casual use of property by visitors or tourists which does not have an intent or propensity to attract a crowd or onlookers.


....snip....


(b) It shall be unlawful for any person, other than a law enforcement officer, to have in his or her possession or on his or her person or in any vehicle any firearm while participating in or attending any demonstration being held at a public place.
I don;t see howattending a public meeting to speak rises to a demonstration under this statute - any case law saying otherwise?


I certainly agree with your logic. However, just two weeks ago OC members who were planning a dinner at a Birmingham, Al restaurant were told by city attorneys and police officials that any such assembly would be considered a demonstration and thereby illegal and subject to immediate arrest. The dinner was subsequently canceled.

I know the situations are different, yet if 'officials' believe a private dinner among friend falls under the demonstration law then what might they say about a group of 5-10 OC'ers showing up at a council meeting?

We do need organization in Alabama and we need it fast. The laws are good and in our favor, yet the LEO's are generally so illinformed that it seems impossible to go about a normal days activity without being harassed in some manner. Hopefully we'll be able to snuff this bs out before it explodes.
 

Mike

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Thundar wrote:
KillBoxAlpha wrote:
I love how the city attorney admitted that it was illegal for them to restrict handgun possession, yet they could make anyone possessing a gun into a tresspasser. I don't understand how anyone can be a tresspasser on 'public' property.
Do they have open meeting laws there?
Yes. The Alabama Open Meetings Act commands that “t is the policy of this state that the deliberative process of governmental bodies shall be open to the public.” Alabama Open Meetings Act at Section 1 (emphasis added).
 

SlowDog

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I find this amazing. Here in Michigan we OC right into our local board meetings. We've even posted it on youtube. It is a public place so we are allowed.
 

aadvark

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Bottom line..., it is ILLEGAL forTuscaloosa County, Alabama, or any City therein, to violate either Alabama State Law 11-45-1.1 OR 11-80-11.

There is nothing under those Laws that authorize an exception.

One may Open Carry any Firearm or Weapon in Alabama as long as He is not prohibited from doing so under Alabama State Law 13A-11-72, concerning Pistols, or 18 U.S.C. 922(d) concerning any other Firearm.

Hand-held Weapons are not regulated by The United States Federal Government, but are regulated, to some degree, by Alabama. Alabama regulates them under, generally, 13A-11-50..., Carrying a Concealed Weapon. Case and point, if it is not Concealed, then,NO Law is broken.

Tuscaloosa is not above Alabama State Law, they just think that they are.

However, we here on Open Carry know better!

P.S.: There is no such thing as Criminal Tresspassing on Public Property, with a close range exception to being on that Property when it is clearly Closed. However, it is within my belief, andas a strict opinion, that this applies only to Buildings, but notopen-areas..., suchas Parks.
 

KillBoxAlpha

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aadvark wrote:
Bottom line..., it is ILLEGAL for Tuscaloosa County, Alabama, or any City therein, to violate either Alabama State Law 11-45-1.1 OR 11-80-11.

There is nothing under those Laws that authorize an exception.

One may Open Carry any Firearm or Weapon in Alabama as long as He is not prohibited from doing so under Alabama State Law 13A-11-72, concerning Pistols, or 18 U.S.C. 922(d) concerning any other Firearm.

Hand-held Weapons are not regulated by The United States Federal Government, but are regulated, to some degree, by Alabama.  Alabama regulates them under, generally, 13A-11-50..., Carrying a Concealed Weapon.  Case and point, if it is not Concealed, then, NO Law is broken.

Tuscaloosa is not above Alabama State Law, they just think that they are.

However, we here on Open Carry know better!

P.S.:  There is no such thing as Criminal Tresspassing on Public Property, with a close range exception to being on that Property when it is clearly Closed.  However, it is within my belief, and as a strict opinion, that this applies only to Buildings, but not open-areas..., such as Parks. 

Exactly. So what is our course of action here? I live just outside Tuscaloosa county. I can certainly help out with anything yall suggest.
 

Mike

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KillBoxAlpha wrote:
Exactly. So what is our course of action here? I live just outside Tuscaloosa county. I can certainly help out with anything yall suggest.

I called the City Clerk yesterday - she said to check her web site every Friday after 2PM to see if the council meeting the following week would include any item related to the possible gun carry ban ordiance.

Who lives in Tuscaloosa and can step forward to lead an effort to mass email the council and attend meetings?
 

Jeff Chandler

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I live in Tuscaloosa County, and I'm afraid that the County elected officials are as ignorant, or out right billligerent toward open carry and public building carry as are the City officials. I have been told out right to my face by the sheriff that open carry is illegal. On the other hand a Tuscaloosa City Police officer told me that he knew it was legal to open carry per certain restrictions ie. in a vehicle,and prohibited persons.
 
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