Tuscaloosa City Council to violate preemption and ban handgun carry in city buildings!

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Mike I chatted with you back in May of 2009 via email when I was asking for advice when I was planning a litter pickup. Now you understand why I contacted you for advise. This is exactly the kinda thing we are dealing with down here. The quote in your facebook message: " when I called a city official told me that open carry was illegal in Alabama " is all to familiar. That is exactly what I have heard from every LEO I've talked to about it as well.

The OC laws are foggy at best, the LEO's don't know them or interpret them their own way. I went forward with the litter pickup anyways and had a grand total of 3 people, including myself, and my brother. As discouraging as that was I still try and do what I can. I email my representatives with very in depth info and a list of changes that need to be made to our laws. Heck, I even email some of the other representatives that aren't even in my district, especially the one who introduce progun bills.

Having said that, I am a few hours away from Tuscaloosa, but would be willing to show up and help in any way I can. This isn't gonna change by people hiding behind forums and computer screens, we gotta come together and get out there and stand up for our rights live and in person.

Mike I hope you do come, we need all the help we can get!

If you want my contact info so I can help in any way I can, just shoot me an email, I'll get ya my number. -Jason

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Count me in as well.


Think someone could draft a sample letter to send to city council members? My parents live in Tuscaloosa so i can use their address.

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I was thinking about this tresspassing nonsense. Can you register to vote in a city building?

It would be really bad for a city in Alabama to interfere with somebodies voting rights.

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Dianosis wrote:

The OC laws are foggy at best

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No, the courts and attornies genneral of Alabama of cleared away the fog.

Now while it is true that one Alabama statute which on its face appears to raise a red flag as to carrying handguns outside one’s own premises: Section 13A-11-52 (“Carrying pistol on premises not his own; who may carry pistol”), which provides:

Alabama Code Section 13A-11-52.



However it turns out that both the Courts and Attorneys General of Alabama have held that Section 13A-11-52 is only violated if there is also a violation of Section 13A-11-73.



Generally, in most states, and in Alabama, “a permit is not required when a person afoot carries an unconcealed pistol. This analysis comports with an Attorney General's opinion by then Assistant Attorney General Gallion on this statute before the 1956 amendment which transplanted the word 'concealed' from being immediatelybefore ‘in any vehicle’ to its present place in the section. There it is said: ‘* * * a person may carry an unconcealed and unlicensed pistol anywhere, either on his own property, * * * on the public highways, public property or the land of another person without violating either Section 163, supra, or Section 175, as amended, supra, * * *’ -- Quarterly Reports of Attorney General, Vol. 79, p. 31, 35.” Looney v. State[/i], 41 Ala. App. 582, 583 (Ala. Ct. App. 1962) (emphasis added).



It is true that the text of “Section 13A-11-52 . . . does not permit the carrying of a pistol outside of a person's own premises under any circumstances. However, that section does begin with the phrase ‘except as otherwise provided in this article.’ Section 13A-11-73 clearly allows a person with a pistol license to carry a pistol in a vehicle or concealed on the person. Furthermore, in Morris v. State[/i][/b], 342 So. 2d 417, 418 (Ala. Cr. App. 1977), and Looney v. State[/i][/b], 41 Ala. App. 582, 141 So. 2d 535, 536 (1962), this court held that § 13A-11-73 does not prohibit carrying an unlicensed pistolif the pistol is unconcealed and the person is on foot. . . . Section 13A-11-52 applies only the extent that it is consistent with § 13A-11-73 because it is ‘the later statute and a complete revision of the subject matter.’ Braxton[/i][/b], 350 So. 2d at 755. Therefore, the state should have been required to prove all of the elements of a violation of § 13A-11-73.” C.D.J. v. State[/i], 671 So. 2d 139, 142 (Ala. Crim. App. 1995) (emphasis added). See also[/i] 2006 Ala. AG LEXIS 145 (Ala. AG 2006) (“Section 13A-11-52 of the Code of Alabama . . . must be read with section 13A-11-73 of the Code of Alabama, which states that "[n]o person shall carry a pistol in any vehicle or concealed on or about his person, except on his land, in his own abode or fixed place of business, without a license therefore as hereinafter provided." ALA. CODE § 13A-11-73 (2006).”); 1984 Ala. AG Op. #84-00205 (“Section 13A-11-73 takes precedence [over Section 13A-11-52] (citing to Braxton v. State[/i][/b], 350 So.2d 753 (1977)), available at http://www.ago.state.al.us/oldopinions/8400205.pdf.



Having established that it is not a violation of Section 13A-11-52 to enter premises such as Tuscaloosa City Hall if carrying pistols consistent with the commands of Section 13A-11-73 (e.g., unconcealed and properly holstered pistols), it should also be noted that in Alabama, like most states, localities are preempted from enacting handgun regulations of virtually any type.

Legal Community Against Violence at [url]http://www.lcav.org/states/Alabama.asp#PreemptionDistributionofPower[/url].

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Y'all listen up, I have Open Carried a LoadedPistol in: Cherokee, Clay, Cleburne,DeKalb, Etowah,Roanoake, and JacksonCounties.

A'int runnin' scared neither....,but y'all would not believe howMANY times MWAG!

Normally, I do not write that way, but itis an effort to getmy point across.

The Sheriff of Tuscaloosa County is WRONG. Open Carry in Alabama is LEGAL!

Unfortunately, I do not have any way of getting out to Tuscaloosa County in time for the Meeting.

Believe me though, if I did, I would make front page news. Not by a mug-shot, but, rather, a Piscture of my Pistol in my Holster, at the stand in the Meeting Room.

The Sheriff is not above the Law, so go out and hold Him to the Law.

13A-11-73is above 13A-11-52. 11-45-1.1 and 11-80-11 are above Tuscaloosa County. There is no Law,anywhere under13A-11-X, that Illegalizes Carry into Public Buildings in Alabama.

That is the bottom line.

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I am unemployed and ready to be illegally arrested. Just ask that someone will bail me out of jail if it comes to that. Note the rebellious stripes in my avatar. I will OC this meeting. When and where is it?

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If I had the money, then, I would do it. However, I do not have the money.

I would urge you to SUE The County/City (whichever Arrests you) for the Illegal Arrest. A skilled Alabama Criminal Defense Attorney should be able to DEFEAT the Arrest by a quick glance over Alabama Code 1975.

The Law is clear: 11-45-1.1 and 11-80-11 Preempt this Unlawful Ordinance.

Also, I would file to The Federal Courts for an additional Lawsuit, something to the tune of [their] Violating your 2nd and 4th Constituitonal Rights!

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I'm not talking about attorney fees. I'll represent myself in court, and win. I'm just talking about having a friend at the meeting with me that I know will have enough cash (50-150) on hand for bail. Criminal trespass shouldn't be too expensive. I will, of course, repay this asap.

Alabama's state motto is 'We dare defend our rights.' Well, I'm ready to.

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Jonathon Norris wrote:

I'm not talking about attorney fees. I'll represent myself in court, and win. I'm just talking about having a friend at the meeting with me that I know will have enough cash (50-150) on hand for bail. Criminal trespass shouldn't be too expensive. I will, of course, repay this asap.

Alabama's state motto is 'We dare defend our rights.' Well, I'm ready to.

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Not to throw stones, but if that's the case then what happened to the Birmingham dreamland meet?

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What happened with the meetup was I didn't want to endanger others with arrest who don't have as much leisure time as me.

Called and left a message with the City Clerk asking about the meeting. Will post date and time, if I get a response.

Also, don't worry about bail, I've got an old friend in Tuscaloosa that owes me a favor.

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Jonathon Norris wrote

Alabama's state motto is 'We dare defend our rights.' Well, I'm ready to.

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AMEN. I find it utterly ironic, but not unusually, understanding too much of "The Montgomery Mentality" myself.

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Hey everyone, I just recieved a call from a Mrs. Croom with the City of Tuscaloosa, and she said that the meeting tomorrow would not be in regards to the firearms ban. She said to keep checking the website and it would announce when the meeting was. She also stated that she had recieved no other local calls about the ban. Just from Mike. So even tho the info will be up online, if you guys wanna call an show some strength, I'll post her number in the next post. On my phone, I gotta close browser to get it.

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Mrs. Croom's (sp?) Number :

(205) 248-5010

Not sure of her title, but she's with the City of Tuscaloosa. She's also really nice, so be cool to her. She sent me an email for a public records request, all I have to do is print it off, fill out in detail what documents I want, and fax it in. Since I have to be very specific on what public records to request in regards to this ban, any suggestions on exactly what to put?

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Tuscaloosa City Hall can do whatever it wants regarding long guns, but their proposed law making possession of a handgun a trespass is clearly illegal. Keep us posted.

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I'm not sure how it would play into the mix but CCW holders are already restricted in the places they can carry their pistols. The Sheriff of the issuing county can place restrictions on where you are allowed to carry your firearm. Jefferson County, for example, where i reside prohibits carry into Municipal buildings etc.. My local Municipal building (which houses the police dept, city gas depart etc) has gone the extra step to post a large "No weapons beyond this point" sign on the entrances to their facilities.

With regards to the issue at hand, the City of Tuscaloosa seems to be over stepping their authority to regulate handguns, as the State of Alabama has total preemption. I'm not personally aware of any preemption with regard to long guns however.

The idea of being charged with trespass on public property gets under my skin though while that facility is open, and is supposed to be open to the public.

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Bhamrichard wrote:

I'm not sure how it would play into the mix but CCW holders are already restricted in the places they can carry their pistols. The Sheriff of the issuing county can place restrictions on where you are allowed to carry your firearm. Jefferson County, for example, where i reside prohibits carry into Municipal buildings etc.. My local Municipal building (which houses the police dept, city gas depart etc) has gone the extra step to post a large "No weapons beyond this point" sign on the entrances to their facilities.

With regards to the issue at hand, the City of Tuscaloosa seems to be over stepping their authority to regulate handguns, as the State of Alabama has total preemption.

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The Sheriff cannot restrict open carry of handguns by concealed handgun permit (CHP) holders - in any event, he cannot restrict concealed carry by folks issued CHPs from other states and counties either.

if you have no-gun signs at municipal buildings, you should be demanding that they be torn down.

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Mike wrote:

Bhamrichard wrote:

I'm not sure how it would play into the mix but CCW holders are already restricted in the places they can carry their pistols. The Sheriff of the issuing county can place restrictions on where you are allowed to carry your firearm. Jefferson County, for example, where i reside prohibits carry into Municipal buildings etc.. My local Municipal building (which houses the police dept, city gas depart etc) has gone the extra step to post a large "No weapons beyond this point" sign on the entrances to their facilities.

With regards to the issue at hand, the City of Tuscaloosa seems to be over stepping their authority to regulate handguns, as the State of Alabama has total preemption.

Click to expand...

The Sheriff cannot restrict open carry of handguns by concealed handgun permit (CHP) holders - in any event, he cannot restrict concealed carry by folks issued CHPs from other states and counties either.

if you have no-gun signs at municipal buildings, you should be demanding that they be torn down.

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My thoughts exactly. Nothing in the law affords sheriffs the right to limit gun carry on public property.

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Mike wrote:

Bhamrichard wrote:

I'm not sure how it would play into the mix but CCW holders are already restricted in the places they can carry their pistols. The Sheriff of the issuing county can place restrictions on where you are allowed to carry your firearm. Jefferson County, for example, where i reside prohibits carry into Municipal buildings etc.. My local Municipal building (which houses the police dept, city gas depart etc) has gone the extra step to post a large "No weapons beyond this point" sign on the entrances to their facilities.

With regards to the issue at hand, the City of Tuscaloosa seems to be over stepping their authority to regulate handguns, as the State of Alabama has total preemption.

Click to expand...

The Sheriff cannot restrict open carry of handguns by concealed handgun permit (CHP) holders - in any event, he cannot restrict concealed carry by folks issued CHPs from other states and counties either.

if you have no-gun signs at municipal buildings, you should be demanding that they be torn down.

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Note: Sheriffs in Alabama can and do put other restrictions on the permit holders they issue to. Do be
aware of any of those restrictions that may be on your permit/license to carry. Carrying where alcohol is
served or consuming alcohol while carrying is one I have seen on more than one Alabama Sheriffs web site
that adds these restrictions. Government buildings are another restricted item they add. Most state City,
County and State Government Buildings are off limits

http://www.handgunlaw.us/states/alabama.pdf

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Mike wrote

The Sheriff cannot restrict open carry of handguns by concealed handgun permit (CHP) holders - in any event, he cannot restrict concealed carry by folks issued CHPs from other states and counties either.

if you have no-gun signs at municipal buildings, you should be demanding that they be torn down.

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Unfortunately, Mike, he can restrict open carry of handguns indirectly. CHPs are at the sheriff's discretion here in AL. More than one person on this message board has lost their permit because they OC-ed. When you lose your permit in AL, you can no longer carry inside your automobile, which makes OC really inconvenient. Imagine having to store your handgun in the trunk and load and unload each time you stopped somewhere. Nevermind the fact that it gets cold here in the winter & we actually do need a license to conceal sometimes just to put on a decent jacket.

We could really use an organization like Georgia Carry or Virginia Citizens Defense League here....or just one semi-wealthy individual willing to push hard & loud on OC.

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Bhamrichard wrote:

Note: Sheriffs in Alabama can and do put other restrictions on the permit holders they issue to. Do be
aware of any of those restrictions that may be on your permit/license to carry. Carrying where alcohol is
served or consuming alcohol while carrying is one I have seen on more than one Alabama Sheriffs web site
that adds these restrictions. Government buildings are another restricted item they add. Most state City,
County and State Government Buildings are off limits

http://www.handgunlaw.us/states/alabama.pdf

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This is so funny - so Alabama residents tolerate being second class citizens as compared to al the out of state people carrying on their CHPs?? Reminds me of the Delaware problem - shall issue applies only to non-residents

In any event, nobody need to carry ID to the event or identify themselves to the police or anyone unless you are speaking - 2-3 nice calm speakers speaking for 1-2 minutes max speakers is all we need with some open arrying supporters to stand up when the speakers ask for anyone in the room who agree with them to stand