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Thread: New guy, car carry questions, current/new legislation

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    Regular Member acmariner99's Avatar
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    Hey guys, I'm new to the forum, and I have a few questions.

    According to my understanding of the ARS for car carry, if you do not have a CCW, your firearm needs to be "two steps removed" from being able to fire. (e.g., holstered and in a glove box). I find it annoying to have to remove my sidearm every time I get in the car. I would prefer to keep my sidearm (an XD .45) on my belt, but holstered and un-chambered, which would require two steps to make the gun ready according to the two step rule, but because the gun is on my person, that puts me in a grey area. Granted getting a CCW would eliminate this grey area, but I am waiting to see the outcome of the legislation being passed in Phoenix that would allow unlicensed CC in all places not requiring a CCW permit. HB 2347 which redefines conceal carry to not needing a CCW if you happen to put a coat over your weapon and HB 2015 & SB 1021 for Constitutional Carry promoted by AzCDL. And would the new legislation, provided it passes, permit me to carry in my vehicle as described above without a CCW? Thanks!

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    Regular Member brokenbarrel's Avatar
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    acmariner99 wrote:
    Hey guys, I'm new to the forum, and I have a few questions.

    According to my understanding of the ARS for car carry, if you do not have a CCW, your firearm needs to be "two steps removed" from being able to fire. (e.g., holstered and in a glove box). I find it annoying to have to remove my sidearm every time I get in the car. I would prefer to keep my sidearm (an XD .45) on my belt, but holstered and un-chambered, which would require two steps to make the gun ready according to the two step rule, but because the gun is on my person, that puts me in a grey area. Granted getting a CCW would eliminate this grey area, but I am waiting to see the outcome of the legislation being passed in Phoenix that would allow unlicensed CC in all places not requiring a CCW permit. HB 2347 which redefines conceal carry to not needing a CCW if you happen to put a coat over your weapon and HB 2015 & SB 1021 for Constitutional Carry promoted by AzCDL. And would the new legislation, provided it passes, permit me to carry in my vehicle as described above without a CCW? Thanks!
    if your weapon is on your hip in plain view your fine...

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    Regular Member acmariner99's Avatar
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    Inside hip near or under the seatbelt? Doing so may partially cover the weapon and it is not blatantly obvious that I am carrying from the driver's side window if I encounter an LEO. Anyone have problems in this regard?

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    No problem, don't know any officers who would give you a hard time.

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    I OC in my truck all the time, and while I have yet to be pulled over the concensus is as long as you say something to the effect "Officer, it is my duty to inform you that I have a gun on my hip, how would you like to proceed?" and then follow their instructions, you'll be ok.

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    Regular Member acmariner99's Avatar
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    Thanks guys. Yes, I am new to this and my questions seem kind of silly, but I appreciate your support and I look forward to be OCing consistently in the future. (Ive just heard that some jurisdictions in arizona can be a little picky as to what qualifies as concealed/open carry in a vehicle) I originally came from a very lib state so that's probably why.

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    I appreciate you asking . my ccw class made this unclear as when one instructor left the room the other would teach the opposite.

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    No such thing as two actions removed in AZ. Dunno where that comes from but I hear it a lot and it's wrong. Here's what the law says:

    ARS 13-3102.G
    Subsection A, paragraph 2 of this section shall not apply to a weapon or weapons carried in a case, holster, scabbard, pack or luggage that is carried within a means of transportation or within a storage compartment, map pocket, trunk or glove compartment of a means of transportation.

    In other words. If it's in a holster OR if it's in a storage compartment map pocket, trunk or glove compartment, you're OK. It doesn't have to be in a holster AND in one of those places, it's either/OR.

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    Safest thing is to have a CCW. Next is holstered in glove box etc. If holstered on the hip make sure the seat belt, armrest and/or center console do not obstruct the view so it does not fall into the gray CC area. Like matt35 said, after you let the LEO give his introduction, with both hands on the top of the wheal and dome light on (if dark) tell him/her you have a weapon in the car. If they ask for it, ask them how they would like you to give it to them. Don't freak if his had is on his or he unholsters during the proses. If he disarms you, mostlickly it will be unchambered and he will hand you the mag round and gun, some field strip them. Put it on the seat and don't mess with it until later. If you are polite and don't look like a thug everything goes smooth. If he doesn't get that "feeling" about you, he will probably just ask you not to reach near it and wont even ask to see it.

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    Regular Member acmariner99's Avatar
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    At home I strapped my gun in a way that was comfortable and buckled in my car to see how it would appear. The waist and shoulder strap happen to come together right where my gun sits and covers all but the nose and butt of the gun. ARS 13-3102.G says:

    Subsection A, paragraph 2 of this section shall not apply to a weapon or weapons carried in a case, holster, scabbard, pack or luggage that is carried within a means of transportation or within a storage compartment, map pocket, trunk or glove compartment of a means of transportation.

    Based on the language here carrying on my hip in a vehicle is perfectly legal, but the seatbelt does partially conceal the weapon and it may not appear to be "clearly visible" as required by Arizona law -- I am a little skeptical as to how it would be interpreted. Since this IS Arizona and most people have no problems with OC, I suspect few people would have a problem with it. The new laws currently being debated in Phoenix (mentioned in my first post) would remove doubt as to how carrying in this fashion would be interpreted by law.

    I would prefer to OC in this fashion and not have to remove my weapon every time I get in the car. That is why I am trying to make sure that this is clear. Sure, a CCW would make this problem go away all together, but that would be "giving up too easily" to government regs and if these new laws are passed a CCW would only be really needed for restaurant carry (with alcohol) and reciprocity.

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    Regular Member brokenbarrel's Avatar
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    acmariner99 wrote:
    At home I strapped my gun in a way that was comfortable and buckled in my car to see how it would appear. The waist and shoulder strap happen to come together right where my gun sits and covers all but the nose and butt of the gun. ARS 13-3102.G says:

    Subsection A, paragraph 2 of this section shall not apply to a weapon or weapons carried in a case, holster, scabbard, pack or luggage that is carried within a means of transportation or within a storage compartment, map pocket, trunk or glove compartment of a means of transportation.

    Based on the language here carrying on my hip in a vehicle is perfectly legal, but the seatbelt does partially conceal the weapon and it may not appear to be "clearly visible" as required by Arizona law -- I am a little skeptical as to how it would be interpreted. Since this IS Arizona and most people have no problems with OC, I suspect few people would have a problem with it. The new laws currently being debated in Phoenix (mentioned in my first post) would remove doubt as to how carrying in this fashion would be interpreted by law.

    I would prefer to OC in this fashion and not have to remove my weapon every time I get in the car. That is why I am trying to make sure that this is clear. Sure, a CCW would make this problem go away all together, but that would be "giving up too easily" to government regs and if these new laws are passed a CCW would only be really needed for restaurant carry (with alcohol) and reciprocity.
    arizona considers partial concealed same as open carry,i love this state..

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    Regular Member acmariner99's Avatar
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    brokenbarrel wrote:
    acmariner99 wrote:
    At home I strapped my gun in a way that was comfortable and buckled in my car to see how it would appear. The waist and shoulder strap happen to come together right where my gun sits and covers all but the nose and butt of the gun. ARS 13-3102.G says:

    Subsection A, paragraph 2 of this section shall not apply to a weapon or weapons carried in a case, holster, scabbard, pack or luggage that is carried within a means of transportation or within a storage compartment, map pocket, trunk or glove compartment of a means of transportation.

    Based on the language here carrying on my hip in a vehicle is perfectly legal, but the seatbelt does partially conceal the weapon and it may not appear to be "clearly visible" as required by Arizona law -- I am a little skeptical as to how it would be interpreted. Since this IS Arizona and most people have no problems with OC, I suspect few people would have a problem with it. The new laws currently being debated in Phoenix (mentioned in my first post) would remove doubt as to how carrying in this fashion would be interpreted by law.

    I would prefer to OC in this fashion and not have to remove my weapon every time I get in the car. That is why I am trying to make sure that this is clear. Sure, a CCW would make this problem go away all together, but that would be "giving up too easily" to government regs and if these new laws are passed a CCW would only be really needed for restaurant carry (with alcohol) and reciprocity.
    arizona considers partial concealed same as open carry,i love this state..
    As do I. Though I like the New Mexico extended domain law better as it makes it clear as to what's allowed. No complaints though, thanks for all your help. Keep carrying, stay safe!!

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    According to my understanding of the ARS for car carry, if you do not have a CCW, your firearm needs to be "two steps removed" from being able to fire. (e.g., holstered and in a glove box).

    This is incorrect.

    The gun does not need to be "two steps removed"

    If you put it in a glovebox, you are concealing it.



    For comfort's sake, I carry a junky old holster in my car and put my gun in it when I' m driving.I keep it in plain view. I've been pulled over under these circumstances and never had a problem.

    Also, it is NOT repeat NOT your duty to tell an officer you are armed. You are under NO obligation to tell an officer of your weapon.

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    Regular Member acmariner99's Avatar
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    1FASTC4 wrote:
    According to my understanding of the ARS for car carry, if you do not have a CCW, your firearm needs to be "two steps removed" from being able to fire. (e.g., holstered and in a glove box).

    This is incorrect.

    The gun does not need to be "two steps removed"

    If you put it in a glovebox, you are concealing it.



    For comfort's sake, I carry a junky old holster in my car and put my gun in it when I' m driving.I keep it in plain view. I've been pulled over under these circumstances and never had a problem.

    Also, it is NOT repeat NOT your duty to tell an officer you are armed. You are under NO obligation to tell an officer of your weapon.
    I am not sure this is accurate: ARS 13-3102.G says:

    Subsection A, paragraph 2 of this section shall not apply to a weapon or weapons carried in a case, holster, scabbard, pack or luggage that is carried within a means of transportation or within a storage compartment, map pocket, trunk or glove compartment of a means of transportation.

    ARS 13-3102 defines misconduct with a weapon, and this paragraph says that carrying in a glove box without a CCW is legal. Could someone else verify this? I think this assessment is correct

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    acmariner99 wrote:
    1FASTC4 wrote:
    According to my understanding of the ARS for car carry, if you do not have a CCW, your firearm needs to be "two steps removed" from being able to fire. (e.g., holstered and in a glove box).
    ¬*

    This is incorrect.¬*

    The gun does not need to be¬* "two steps removed"

    If you put it in a glovebox, you are concealing it.

    ¬*

    For comfort's sake, I carry a junky old holster in my car and put my gun in it when I' m driving.¬*I keep it in plain view. I've been pulled over under these circumstances and never had a problem.

    Also, it is NOT repeat NOT your duty to tell an officer you are armed. You are under NO obligation to tell an officer of your weapon.
    I am not sure this is accurate: ARS 13-3102.G says:

    Subsection A, paragraph 2 of this section shall not apply to a weapon or weapons carried in a case, holster, scabbard, pack or luggage that is carried within a means of transportation or within a storage compartment, map pocket, trunk or glove compartment of a means of transportation.

    ARS 13-3102 defines misconduct with a weapon, and this paragraph says that carrying in a glove box without¬* a CCW is legal. Could someone else verify this? I think this assessment is correct
    You are correct. The law is clear. You can carry your weapon in a glove box or any compartment- even the map compartment where it is easily accessible to you. No glove box and no two steps removed.

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    Regular Member 1FASTC4's Avatar
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    I didn't say he was illegally concealing it.



    I'll repeat, there is no "two steps removed" requirement in AZ.

    None

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    Regular Member acmariner99's Avatar
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    I understand no "two step" rule now, the language of the ARS mentioned in this thread makes that clear. Now I am trying to figure out how I can carry my weapon in the context of ARS 13-3102. Based on the responses I have been getting, and the context of the law, Arizona recognizes "partially concealed" as being OC (e.g. on hip, holstered, not chambered if desired, and partially covered by a seatbelt) which is how I want to carry without a CCW (or if the new legislation passes), provided a LEO is informed if he asks or tell him/her if you have to go near the weapon to get necessary papers and ID.

    I also understand that I can place my weapon in the glove box unholstered per the language of ARS 13-3102 G without a problem if the above example is considered grey. Comments? Thanks for all your help. You guys are very informative and supportive.

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    acmariner99 wrote:
    I understand no "two step" rule now, the language of the ARS mentioned in this thread makes that clear. Now I am trying to figure out how I can carry my weapon in the context of ARS 13-3102. Based on the responses I have been getting, and the context of the law, Arizona recognizes "partially concealed" as being OC (e.g. on hip, holstered, not chambered if desired, and partially covered by a seatbelt) which is how I want to carry without a CCW (or if the new legislation passes), provided a LEO is informed if he asks or tell him/her if you have to go near the weapon to get necessary papers and ID.

    I also understand that I can place my weapon in the glove box unholstered per the language of ARS 13-3102 G without a problem if the above example is considered grey. Comments? Thanks for all your help. You guys are very informative and supportive.
    There is no duty to proactively inform a LEO about having a pistol on you, and there are those who oppose doing so on individual rights grounds (as you read above). However, I just wanted to comment that my own policy when I OC'd (partially concealed like you, actually) was to let the LEO know just so there were no misunderstandings or accidents, should he notice it while I was reaching around back for my wallet. That's just my own personal policy - I prefer to let the LEO know, not saying or suggesting what anyone else should do. For me, this is a "man to man" courtesy, not something I feel I have to do or owe the state.

    My experiences with police have been uniformly negative...except in Arizona. I don't know what it is here but on the very rare occasions I have had to deal with Arizona police (all over the state), they have pretty much been what I think police should be. Don't know why. Maybe I've just been lucky.

    But indeed partially concealed is OC. In fact, only a bit of holster has to be visible. All of this tells me one thing: the distinction between OC and CC is stupid and pointless.

    I got my CCW "permission slip" reluctantly just to avoid "accidental concealment."



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    crisiswease wrote
    I got my CCW "permission slip" reluctantly just to avoid "accidental concealment."
    Accidental concealment may become perfectly legal if one of the new bills being discussed in Phoenix passes :celebrate

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    acmariner99 wrote:
    crisiswease wrote
    I got my CCW "permission slip" reluctantly just to avoid "accidental concealment."
    Accidental concealment may become perfectly legal if one of the new bills being discussed in Phoenix passes :celebrate
    Not saying I don't want it to pass but if it does you know we will see more of the no firearms signs go up everywhere. Just like the sings that popped up after CC in bars. One step forward two back.

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    LA4516 wrote:
    Not saying I don't want it to pass but if it does you know we will see more of the no firearms signs go up everywhere. Just like the sings that popped up after CC in bars. One step forward two back.
    Don't expect most of those signs to last. There was a flurry of them when concealed carry permits started getting issued too, but they gradually fade away again as people realize that the streets have failed to run red with blood.
    http://arizonagunowners.com - The best AZ gun board around!

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    Regular Member acmariner99's Avatar
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    I don't think people will make too much of a fuss over it. I remember the law for CCing being passed for some alcoholic establishments last year; don't remember people making a fuss over that either.

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    acmariner99 wrote:
    Hey guys, I'm new to the forum, and I have a few questions.

    According to my understanding of the ARS for car carry, if you do not have a CCW, your firearm needs to be "two steps removed" from being able to fire. (e.g., holstered and in a glove box). I find it annoying to have to remove my sidearm every time I get in the car. I would prefer to keep my sidearm (an XD .45) on my belt, but holstered and un-chambered, which would require two steps to make the gun ready according to the two step rule, but because the gun is on my person, that puts me in a grey area. Granted getting a CCW would eliminate this grey area, but I am waiting to see the outcome of the legislation being passed in Phoenix that would allow unlicensed CC in all places not requiring a CCW permit. HB 2347 which redefines conceal carry to not needing a CCW if you happen to put a coat over your weapon and HB 2015 & SB 1021 for Constitutional Carry promoted by AzCDL. And would the new legislation, provided it passes, permit me to carry in my vehicle as described above without a CCW? Thanks!
    First, the "two steps" rule is NOT law or formal procedure. It won't hold up in court. It's more urban legend than anything.

    Second, the language in ARS 13-3102.F was interpteted in 1994 by the Appeals Court to mean your firearm must be visible under oridnary observation outside the vehicle (State v. Adams). The exceptions are a holstered gun in a glove compartment, map pocket (recent law thanks to AzCDL), storage compartment or trunk. Per State v. Adams, wearing a gun on your hip in the car = concealed carry. A gun on the floor = concealed carry. A gun on the seat can be considered concealed carry (it's that "ordinary observation" thing). Fortunately, cops are really great people and are very forgiving in this area. Plus they may just as confused about the law and court decisions as we all are.

    Assuming we get Constitutional Carry passed this year, all this nonsense goes away and you can carry on your person or in a vehicle, open or concealed.

    Fred


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    Regular Member acmariner99's Avatar
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    Fred, whats the status of those laws. I remember another thread that mentioned it was being debated. And thankfully the senators/reps from the district encompassing Yavapai county support the new legislation.

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    acmariner99 wrote:
    Fred, whats the status of those laws. I remember another thread that mentioned it was being debated. And thankfully the senators/reps from the district encompassing Yavapai county support the new legislation.
    We have two simulatenous bills running. One in the House and one in the Senate. You can see what's been happening and what is hot on ourNews page.

    SB 1102, the Senate version, was hijacked by an anti-gun amendment yesterday (2/18/10). I urgeeveryone to send the letter that is waiting for you at our Action Center!

    The fat lady hasn't sung yet, nor is she tuning up her voice. We have a number of alternatives available to get Constiutional Carry to the Governor this year. However our success or failure depends upon whether gun owners want to get involvedor sit on the sidelines and whine.

    Like Edmund Burke said: "All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing."

    Fred

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