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Thread: Savage Muzzleloader KABOOM

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    FROM THE FIREARMS BLOG. http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/
    There have been a lot of recently publicized KBs. I was emailed these photos of a Savage Model 10ML II "Smokeless" Muzzleloader. The accident happened last October.


    The Model 10ML II is designed so that it can be used with smokeless powder, which generates much higher pressure than blackpowder.









    The shooters hand, which was holding the fore end of the stock, suffered a lot of damage. I decided not to publish photos of his hand because they are far too graphic, but can be SEEN HERE >http://www.downrange.tv/forum/index.php?topic=11187.0 (YOU HAVE BEEN WARNED!). (ZACK991) Now I have know several people who had barrels go on them and the damage it has caused them. Though this one takes me the top of my list of ouch.


    The North American Muzzleloader Hunting Association published the shooters account of the incident ..
    "On October 24th, 2009, I went to Broad Valley, Manitoba where I had purchased a hunting cabin with a couple of friends, to do some work on the cabin. And we thought we would get in a hunt that afternoon and the next morning. I had not sighted my muzzleloader this year, so went to a pit south of town to do so. I loaded the gun with 42.5 grains of IMR 4759 powder, using a 250 grain Barnes bullet. One of my buddies suggested I shoot over the hood of his truck, but I did not have ear protection, so decided to shoot off of a canvas duffle bag full of clothes. First shot was my last shot - as there was a large explosion...with my hand under the barrel on the forestock. The barrel and forestock blew apart (per pictures), and some part of the gun blew off and dented the door of the truck. My buddies took me to Hodgson General Hospital 20 minutes away. From there, I was transported by ambulance to Winnipeg Health Science Center 2 hours away, where I underwent 6 hours of surgery. Doctors expect 2-3 more surgeries, and I will be off work for 6 months to a year.
    [ Many thanks to Frank for emailing me the photo.
    -I come in peace, I didn't bring artillery. But I am pleading with you with tears in my eyes: If you screw with me, I'll kill you all.
    -Be polite, be professional, but have a plan to kill everybody you meet.
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    Campaign Veteran GLOCK21GB's Avatar
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    WOW, well I guess the pictures are graphic, being a former first responder I have seen worse. but yea...kinda raw. It's amazing how it just ripped the hand apart. & I am gonna guess he was holding on to the plastic stock too. next time wear heavy gloves.
    http://youtu.be/xWgVGu3OR4U AACFI, Wisconsin / Minnesota Carry Certified. Action Pistol & Advanced Action pistol concepts + Urban Carbine course. When the entitlement Zombies begin looting, pillaging, raping, burning & killing..remember HEAD SHOTS it's the only way to kill a Zombie. Stockpile food & water now.

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    I think more then likely over charged. By the images of his hand he is extremely lucky he did not lose the entire hand and not just some fingers. According to the web page i listed with the images says it was a .50 cal

    I tend to believe that if Savage says it will handle smokeless charges, they engineered it to handle smokeless charges. Killing and maiming your customers isn't good for business.

    There is no mention as to the type of powder this shooter used, or how much. Both things you'd need to know to come to an educated conclusion.

    Here's a thought that will give perspective to the idea of using smokeless powder in a muzzle loader. Black powder is measured into the gun using a tube on the powder flask that holds "about" the amount you want.Smokeless is measured into cartridges using triple beam or digital scales that measure 1/10th of a grain.
    -I come in peace, I didn't bring artillery. But I am pleading with you with tears in my eyes: If you screw with me, I'll kill you all.
    -Be polite, be professional, but have a plan to kill everybody you meet.
    Marine General James Mattis,

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    .......... the hand, oh man, the hand....... uuggghhh

    anyway, great lesson in fluid and thermo dynamics.





    oh jeeze, the hand.....

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    Campaign Veteran GLOCK21GB's Avatar
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    tekshogun wrote:
    .......... the hand, oh man, the hand....... uuggghhh

    anyway, great lesson in fluid and thermo dynamics.





    oh jeeze, the hand.....
    I hope it not the hand he uses to wipe his butt... That would suck !!!
    http://youtu.be/xWgVGu3OR4U AACFI, Wisconsin / Minnesota Carry Certified. Action Pistol & Advanced Action pistol concepts + Urban Carbine course. When the entitlement Zombies begin looting, pillaging, raping, burning & killing..remember HEAD SHOTS it's the only way to kill a Zombie. Stockpile food & water now.

    Please support your local,county, state & Federal Law enforcement agencies, right ???

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    Glock34 wrote:
    tekshogun wrote:
    .......... the hand, oh man, the hand....... uuggghhh

    anyway, great lesson in fluid and thermo dynamics.





    oh jeeze, the hand.....
    I hope it not the hand he uses to wipe his butt... That would suck !!!
    If it is, that would be a great justification for getting a bidet installed in the master bathroom.




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    Regular Member rodbender's Avatar
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    My bet is he didn't seat the bullet well against the powder charge.
    The thing about common sense is....it ain't too common.
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    Regular Member 1245A Defender's Avatar
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    I loaded the gun with 42.5 grains of IMR 4759 powder, using a 250 grain Barnes bullet.

    that is a sh5t load of any kind of powder!! if its not black powder then it must be at least 3 times the reasonable amount!

    EMNofSeattle wrote: Your idea of freedom terrifies me. So you are actually right. I am perfectly happy with what you call tyranny.....

    “If ever a time should come, when vain and aspiring men shall possess the highest seats in Government, our country will stand in need of its experienced patriots to prevent its ruin.”

    Stand up for your Rights,, They have no authority on their own...

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    Regular Member rodbender's Avatar
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    1245A Defender wrote:
    I loaded the gun with 42.5 grains of IMR 4759 powder, using a 250 grain Barnes bullet.

    that is a sh5t load of any kind of powder!! if its not black powder then it must be at least 3 times the reasonable amount!
    It's been so long since I reloaded, that I can't comprehend how much of a charge that actually is. I mean the numbers escape me. So how much of a charge is that compared to say a 30.06.
    The thing about common sense is....it ain't too common.
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    Regular Member 1245A Defender's Avatar
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    rodbender wrote:
    1245A Defender wrote:
    I loaded the gun with 42.5 grains of IMR 4759 powder, using a 250 grain Barnes bullet.

    that is a sh5t load of any kind of powder!! if its not black powder then it must be at least 3 times the reasonable amount!
    It's been so long since I reloaded, that I can't comprehend how much of a charge that actually is. I mean the numbers escape me. So how much of a charge is that compared to say a 30.06.
    i looked up imr 4759, and that is more than they use in the BIG magnums. and imr is smokeless, more powerfull than black powder
    EMNofSeattle wrote: Your idea of freedom terrifies me. So you are actually right. I am perfectly happy with what you call tyranny.....

    “If ever a time should come, when vain and aspiring men shall possess the highest seats in Government, our country will stand in need of its experienced patriots to prevent its ruin.”

    Stand up for your Rights,, They have no authority on their own...

    All power is inherent in the people,
    it is their right and duty to be at all times ARMED!

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    Regular Member rodbender's Avatar
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    OK, I located a little data that I can use for comparison. Maybe some of you guys can relate as well. Keep in mind that these are MAXIMUM LOADS.

    .458 Win. Mag.

    44.5 gr IMR4759 510 gr. projectile 1645 FPS 52,400 CUP pressure

    .375 H&H Mag.

    41.5 gr IMR4759 270 gr projectile 2085 FPS 53,000CUP pressure

    .458 was theclosest boreI could find that used IMR4759

    270 gr projectile was the closest to what he used.

    CUP does not equal PSI and there is no straight conversion. I could not find the actual PSI maximum for the .458 Win Mag. However the chart below is a conversion of some popular calibers. If you notice in the chart, the .222 Rem, .300 Savage, and 7MM Rem. Mag all have 46,000 CUP ratings but the PSI ratingsare different. Again, these are maximum pressures.

    He was shooting with 42.5 gr IMR4759 and a 250 gr. projectile through a .50 caliber bore. Did he overload the muzzle loader? I don't know how much pressure the Savage was designed to handle. I don't know how much pressurethis load was producing. If anyone can find this data, please post it. I will keep looking, my curiosity isup in arms over this and demands to me satisfied.


    Cartridge ANSI CUP ANSI PSI

    222 rem 46000 50000

    22-250 rem53000 65000

    243 win 52000 60000

    25-06 rem 53000 63000

    257 roberts 45000 54000

    264 win mag5400064000

    270 win 52000 65000

    280 rem 50000 60000

    284 win 54000 56000

    30 carbine 40000 40000

    300 savage46000 47000

    300 win mag 54000 64000

    30-06 50000 60000

    303 british 45000 49000

    30-30 win 38000 42000

    308 win 52000 60000

    32 win special 38000 42000

    338 win mag 54000 64000

    35 rem 35000 33500

    375 h&h mag 53000 62000

    444 marlin 44000 42000

    45-70 government 28000 28000

    6.5 rem mag 53000 65000

    6mm rem 52000 65000

    7mm express Rem 40000 45000

    7mm rem mag 46000 51000

    7mm SE vH 52000 61000

    7x50 R 52000 61000

    8mm rem mag 37000 35000

    8x50R 54000 65000


    The thing about common sense is....it ain't too common.
    Will Rogers

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    Regular Member Alexcabbie's Avatar
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    This is just absolutely unbelieveable. Venerable Savage Arms claiming a muzzleloader is safe for smokeless powder?

    While this rifle might be suited to the likes of Elmer Kieth - who liked to work up heavy loads and was well aware of the consequenses of a mistake - it is not for the Daniel Boone wannabe to carry around with a powder-horn full of smokeless powder. Smokeless is VERY unforgiving of even sligfht overcharges. IMO "safe use" of smokeless in this rifle would entail measuring out PRECISE amounts of powder into paper cartridges similar to what was carried by the military back in the Musket Era, and making DAMNED SURE that the ram-rod fully seated the bullet on the charge.

    I note in the accompanying article that Savage's manual for the weapon contained a table of loads. Nevertheless, I bet there is a big bad lawsuit coming down the pike, and if the injured man doesn't file one, I betcha some ambulance-chaser will file a "class action" suit of some kind. I sure wouldn't want to be the CEO of Savage right now (but I might short some of their stock if I could).

    I wonder just what in heck is with these attempts to "improve the muzzleloader"?? I just about had a fit about 15 years ago when I saw an ad for a muzzle-loader with an "in-line percussion cap firing system" that was vaunted as "the latest in muzzle-loading technology":quirky The latest in muzzle-loading technology ? Isn't that a bit like designing a buckboard that rides like a Buick?

    The damage to that poor guy's hand is horrific. I can identify damage from shrapnel, cutting and laceration from hot gasses, and ditto cauterization from hot gas , with extreme powder burns thrown into the mix.

    What really mystifies me about this rifle is that it is allegedly designed to use more modern smokeless powder, but is way more of a pain in the neck to load and fire safely than black powder ever was. In other words, a muzzle loader using smokeless is actually a step backward in "muzzle loading technology". Whatever that is.

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    Regular Member tcmech's Avatar
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    I did not look at the hand pictures which were linked. I hope that the shooter will be allright. I know that being off of work for 6 months has to be hard on anyones budget and I hope that there is no permanent damage to him.

    I have been shooting the same stainless savage muzzleloader for years and I have a hard time believing that it would do this with less powder than I use and a lighter bullet.

    I have known many people who have loaded their guns hotter than I load (or ever would load) mine who have never had a problem. Ihave read of others who have bulged barrels by leaving the ramrods in the barrels when they fired the guns. Ihave read ofeven more who have double loaded (powder bullet/sabot over powder bullet/sabot) who have only bulged barrels to show for it.

    I hope that this gun has been sent back to savage for investigation in case there is a safety issue which all of the savage ml shooters will need to be made aware of.
    If Obama is the answer; how stupid was the question?

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    Regular Member rodbender's Avatar
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    OK, the chamber of the Savage 10ML-II has been tested to 129,000 PSI. A sizable amount of pressure for any shoulder fired firearm. About double what I've seen in print anyways.

    Read this. It's not too terribly long. Be sure to makenote ofany dates in both articles cited below. Also note the name of the author of the first article and the letter shown in the second article.

    http://www.hpmuzzleloading.com/Alert2.html

    Then read this. It's quite a bit longer, but I found it an interesting read and I didn't want to miss any fine points this guy was going to make.

    http://randywakeman.com/HowToBlowUpASavage10ML.htm

    Well, I've made up my mind. I have reported, you decide. (I kinda stole that a little bit.)
    The thing about common sense is....it ain't too common.
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    Regular Member thx997303's Avatar
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    Even if the charge was under max, one thing that needs to be remembered is that while blackpowder does best with some compression, smokeless powder tends to exhibit extremely dangerous pressures when compressed.

    I would worry about muzzleloading with smokeless.

    And it appears that 42.5 gr is a safe load for this gun.

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    Regular Member tcmech's Avatar
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    thx997303 wrote:
    Even if the charge was under max, one thing that needs to be remembered is that while blackpowder does best with some compression, smokeless powder tends to exhibit extremely dangerous pressures when compressed.

    I would worry about muzzleloading with smokeless.

    And it appears that 42.5 gr is a safe load for this gun
    I have been using this gun with smokeless powder for years. The smokeless powder also needs to be compressed for ignition purposes.

    After doing some web surfing I have found that this particular post has been around for a while on different forums, some have speculated that he used a blackpowder measure instead of weighing the charges. Remember that blackpowder is done by volume, smokeless powder is done by weight. I do not know if the weight of the powder would have been heavier or lighter useing a black powder measure. I would check myself but I don't have a black powder measure, just a scale.

    Others have stated that it appeared he had the rifle double loaded, (powder, bulltet powder bullet)

    All I can state for a fact is that I load my savage with 43 grains of 4759, a 300 grain bullet in a harvester crush rib sabot and I have had no issues with overpressure (flattened primers, shredded sabots, or bullets key holing targets) thathave ever been noticed.

    Remember that using this rifle is like hand loading each and every time you load it. If you are not careful bad things can happen.

    As one last side note black powder rifles can be dangerous also. I have an aquaintance we all call "one thumb" who can attest to that.
    If Obama is the answer; how stupid was the question?

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    Regular Member thx997303's Avatar
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    Compression is dangerous with smokeless. Period.

    Sounds like you are using a wad that compresses in place of the powder compressing.

    And compression is NOT required in smokeless.

    I load 15 gr of Unique under a 350 gr bullet in my 45-70

    This load is in NO way compressed, as a matter of fact, it probably takes up 30% case capacity.

    Ignition is positive.

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