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Thread: Criminal pulls starter pistol- Store Clerk pulls real gun.

  1. #1
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    From Livingston County Press today:

    http://www.livingstondaily.com/artic...bbery-attempts



    One man is in custody after an attempted robbery at the Venture Corners supermarket in Deerfield Township was repelled Thursday afternoon when a clerk fired shots at the would-be robber.

    At Venture Corners, at Faussett and Argentine roads, a white male, in his mid-30s, walked into store saying he needed money, said Livingston County Undersheriff Mike Murphy. The would-be robber pointed a weapon at the clerk, believed to be a starter pistol, which shoots blanks only.

    The store clerk pushed it aside and produced his own weapon, and ordered the perpetrator to the floor.

    The clerk pushed the silent alarm button, and said, “I don’t want to shoot you,” according to Murphy. That’s when the suspect jumped up and fled out the door.
    The clerk fired one shot inside the building as man fled, Murphy said. The clerk then fired two more rounds as the perpetrator fled in a black Grand Prix.

    He shot out a rear tire and the rear and side windows of the car. The perpetrator was not hit by the gunfire.

    Suspect fled westbound on Faussett Road. He was followed by an unknown individual, Murphy said.

    Police stopped the suspect vehicle on Latson Road just north of Faussett.

    No money was taken, and there were no injuries in the incident.

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    Regular Member Taurus850CIA's Avatar
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    "Fault always lies in the same place, my fine babies: with him weak enough to lay blame." - Cort

    Gun control is like trying to reduce Drunk Driving by making it tougher for sober people to own cars.

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    With freedom comes much responsibility. It is for this reason so many are loathe to exercise it.

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    sounds like a bad shoot.

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    zigziggityzoo wrote:
    sounds like a bad shoot.
    And an idiot, shooting at a fleeing suspect.

    All opinions posted on opencarry.org are my own, and do not necessarily reflect the views of opencarry.org or Michigan Open Carry Inc.

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    I hope the clerk prevails and this incident sends aclear message toBG'sthat the mere citizenry is not kneeling down any longer.

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    Springer, I'm with Malignity on this one.springerdave.

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    springerdave wrote:
    Springer, I'm with Malignity on this one.springerdave.
    I don't disagree with Malignity, the clerk, most likely, screwed up and may pay stiff penalties for his or her actions. Obviously, the clerk needs some schooling on the Self-Defense Act.

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    wow i have been to this store quite a bit its way out in the country i wouldnt have ever thought this would of happend there but just goes to show ya you never know when and where

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    .
    Last edited by T Vance; 09-20-2010 at 01:39 PM.

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    T Vance wrote:
    malignity wrote:
    zigziggityzoo wrote:
    sounds like a bad shoot.
    And an idiot, shooting at a fleeing suspect.
    Yep, could be asking for a criminal charge. I know his adrenaline was probably rushing after having a gun pointed at him, even if it was only a "starters pistol", but you have to know when you can lawfully shoot to defend yourself.
    the only right time to shoot this robber was when he pulled and pointed the gun, even if he could tell it was a starter pistol, he didnt need to tell anybody he knew it could not shoot him.
    at that instant he should have shot the robber in self defence!
    EMNofSeattle wrote: Your idea of freedom terrifies me. So you are actually right. I am perfectly happy with what you call tyranny.....

    If ever a time should come, when vain and aspiring men shall possess the highest seats in Government, our country will stand in need of its experienced patriots to prevent its ruin.

    Stand up for your Rights,, They have no authority on their own...

    All power is inherent in the people,
    it is their right and duty to be at all times ARMED!

  11. #11
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    1245A Defender wrote:
    T Vance wrote:
    malignity wrote:
    zigziggityzoo wrote:
    sounds like a bad shoot.
    And an idiot, shooting at a fleeing suspect.
    Yep, could be asking for a criminal charge. I know his adrenaline was probably rushing after having a gun pointed at him, even if it was only a "starters pistol", but you have to know when you can lawfully shoot to defend yourself.
    the only right time to shoot this robber was when he pulled and pointed the gun, even if he could tell it was a starter pistol, he didnt need to tell anybody he knew it could not shoot him.
    at that instant he should have shot the robber in self defence!
    Sure sounds to me like a perfect example of the "fleeing felon" clause in the law.

    Armed robbery IS a felon and the guy WAS fleeing.



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    Leader wrote:
    1245A Defender wrote:
    T Vance wrote:
    malignity wrote:
    zigziggityzoo wrote:
    sounds like a bad shoot.
    And an idiot, shooting at a fleeing suspect.
    Yep, could be asking for a criminal charge. I know his adrenaline was probably rushing after having a gun pointed at him, even if it was only a "starters pistol", but you have to know when you can lawfully shoot to defend yourself.
    the only right time to shoot this robber was when he pulled and pointed the gun, even if he could tell it was a starter pistol, he didnt need to tell anybody he knew it could not shoot him.
    at that instant he should have shot the robber in self defence!
    Sure sounds to me like a perfect example of the "fleeing felon" clause in the law.

    Armed robbery IS a felon and the guy WAS fleeing.


    http://www.ammoland.com/2010/01/11/m...to-gun-owners/

    Michigan Rules for Arrest, Advice to Gun Owners
    by Daniel Bambery, Author of “A Common Sense Guide to Michigan Gun Laws”

    Michigan – -(AmmoLand.com)- An arrest is the stopping or restraint of a person that requires them to remain within certain specified limits. Any time someone stops me from going where I have a right to go, I have been “arrested”. When the security guard stops me from leaving the store and asks to look into my shopping cart; when the TSA employee demands to see my boarding pass; when a child stands in the door and wants me to stay home and play; when the police officer pulls me over I have been arrested.

    The question is whether the arrest is proper and how much force is allowed in making a proper arrest.

    The rule of reasonableness applies throughout the rules governing arrest. To avoid consequences in all situations, the actions of the person making the arrest must be reasonable.

    A private person can use more force than a police officer to arrest a fleeing felon without criminal consequences; but in more limited circumstances. Michigan courts have ruled that the use of deadly force by a private person to prevent the escape of a fleeing felon is justifiable where the following three circumstances are present: (1) the evidence must show that a felony actually occurred, (2) the fleeing suspect against whom force was used must be the person who committed the felony, and (3) the use of deadly force must been necessary to ensure the apprehension of the felon. (That is, if the arrestee resists the arrest or would escape without the use of deadly force.)

    This third circumstance is another way of saying the use of deadly force must be reasonable. If the fleeing felon has stopped and is awaiting the arrival of the police, the use of deadly force is not reasonable. Likewise the use of deadly force before calling out to the felon to stop is probably unreasonable.

    On the other hand a police officer is bound by the constitutional prohibition against unreasonable arrests. The U. S. Supreme Court has ruled that it is per se unreasonable for a police officer to use deadly force to stop a nonviolent fleeing felon who poses no danger to the officer or others. Thus, there is a fourth circumstance that applies to the police but the police can arrest with probable cause. So the rule for police use of deadly force is: 1) the officer must have probable cause to believe that a felony actually occurred, (2) the officer must have probable cause to believe the fleeing suspect against whom force was used is the person who committed the felony, (3) the use of deadly force must been necessary to ensure the apprehension of the felon, and (4) the fleeing felon must pose a danger to others if not stopped. (The danger can be shown by the nature of the crime the person is fleeing from. An armed robber is always dangerous. A burglar may be dangerous.)

    A private person may make an arrest without civil consequences for the arrest if the person arrested has actually committed a felony. Probable cause or a reasonable belief is not good enough. The arrestee must actually be a felon. Liability can still attach if the arrest was done in an unreasonable manner.

    Police may arrest without a warrant with probable cause to believe a felony has been committed and probable cause to believe the person arrested committed it, or if a misdemeanor has been committed in the officer’s presence. An officer can always arrest if a warrant exists for the arrest.

    Michigan has changed many traffic violations from misdemeanors to civil infractions. There is now a specific statute allowing officers to detain motorists upon reasonable belief that the motorist committed a civil infraction.

    An improper or false arrest is rarely a criminal act. If the person making the false arrest forces the person arrested to go to another location it may become the crime of kidnapping. If the arresting person unreasonably uses deadly force and the arrestee dies it can be murder. But absent such aggravating circumstances the remedy for a false arrest is a civil suit for damages. Damages can include such things as mental anguish for public embarrassment, lost wages, costs of therapy needed to get over the embarrassment etc.

    A merchant or librarian, or their employee, may arrest a person if the merchant has reasonable cause to believe that the person has stolen something from the store or library. Reasonable cause is often a tricky concept. Often the merchant will ask the person if they have something that belongs to the merchant or to voluntarily accompany them to the back of the store. The best procedure of course is for the merchant to actually see the person put the steaks inside their pants before leaving without paying.

    A licensed, uniformed security guard has all the arrest powers of a police officer while on his employer’s premises.

    If wrong, a merchant or librarian is not liable for mental anguish or punitive damages if the arrest was made with probable cause and in a reasonable manner. He is still liable for actual damages.

    A theater owner can arrest, and hold for the police, a person the theatre owner has reasonable cause to believe was recording the movie.

    It is good to reiterate that an arrest must always be reasonable and done in a reasonable manner. If a person avoids any criminal consequences from using force in making an arrest, they can still be liable for civil damages if they made an unreasonable arrest or made a reasonable arrest in an unreasonable manner.

    (Emphisis Mine) Also see People v. Couch (1990) where the MSC held that Tn v. Garner....


  13. #13
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    Here is the audio tape of the 9-11 call:


    The store clerk was a concealed carry permit holder.

    There are three segments of the audio.

    1. Initial call with the perp in the store.

    2. After the felon flees, the clerk talks to the 911 dispatcher.

    3. 911 takes the call of a witness who was chasing the fleeing gunman.

    Caution- harsh language.


    http://www.livingstondaily.com/asset...6152238219.MP3

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    P.S.

    YOU CANNOT SHOOT A FLEEING FELON.

    Read People vs. Couch.

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    James_Liv_Co wrote:
    P.S.

    YOU CANNOT SHOOT A FLEEING FELON.

    Read People vs. Couch.
    You can in Texas if they are on your property.

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    .
    Last edited by T Vance; 09-20-2010 at 01:34 PM.

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    The Clerk screwed up.. At one point, he could've shot the fella right on the spot, but once he submitted, and then on top of that fled the scene, the Clerk became the attacker..

  18. #18
    Regular Member autosurgeon's Avatar
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    Well lets wait and see what happens... I am predicting that the clerk will NOT be charged. Just BC he said he didn't want to shoot the guy does not mean he knew the gun was fake.
    Anything I post may be my opinion and not the law... you are responsible to do your own verification.

    Blackstone (1753-1765) maintains that "the law holds that it is better that ten guilty persons escape than that one innocent suffer."

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    Carnivore wrote:
    The Clerk screwed up.. At one point, he could've shot the fella right on the spot, but once he submitted, and then on top of that fled the scene, the Clerk became the attacker..
    It was bad as a self-defense shooting, but good as a fleeing felon shooting.

    Since no one was harmed, I doubt the clerk will be charged.

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    I think they should take the robber out in the local town square and hang him.

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    Hombre1 wrote:
    I think they should take the robber out in the local town square and hang him.
    In that area of Deerfield Township, the Venture Corners Supermarket is the local town square.








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    Hombre1 wrote:
    I think they should take the robber out in the local town square and hang him.
    Just curious, when one of your own crosses that line into "felonyville" by usurping someones rights under color of law, do you want to "string them up"?springerdave.

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    springerdave wrote:
    Hombre1 wrote:
    I think they should take the robber out in the local town square and hang him.
    Just curious, when one of your own crosses that line into "felonyville" by usurping someones rights under color of law, do you want to "string them up"?springerdave.
    Sounds like a request granted in Nazi Germany and USSR .. Seems like that's your mindset. I'd rather die fighting then to see that happen.

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    mikestilly wrote:
    springerdave wrote:
    Hombre1 wrote:
    I think they should take the robber out in the local town square and hang him.
    Just curious, when one of your own crosses that line into "felonyville" by usurping someones rights under color of law, do you want to "string them up"?springerdave.
    Sounds like a request granted in Nazi Germany and USSR .. Seems like that's your mindset. I'd rather die fighting then to see that happen.
    Bet you'd think differently if you were the store clerk.

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    I HAVE been the store clerk and I have been subjected to the works of the criminal LEO and non-LEO. Answer the question, do you want to string up one of your own when that felony is committed?springerdave.

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