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Why carry if there is no real recourse

C

crash5150

Regular Member
Joined
Jan 28, 2010
Messages
76
Location
Sacramento, CA
imported post

Of course its our right to carry but....

I just realized, why carry outside of larger group carries if..

a) we are going to get harrassed by law enforcement and
b) there is not the right information available to us to file lawsuits when our rights are violated.. and
c) knowledge of an attorney, team of attorneys or firms that will pick up these lawsuits/cases.

obviously complaints and internal investigations isn't doing the trick. Complaints go unanswered or brushed off by some captain. If we continue with this open carry bit, I would think that a plan needs to be set into motion to actually fight back against the LEO's that are violating our rights, and not just with the departments own procedures of these complaints.

Maybe I'm coming from a different standpoint because I have a CCW. But instead of just creating a headache for some of these departments, bad press, and increasing tension between citizens and police, why not actually hit em where it hurts... the pocket books.. of the officers and the departments.

I think some of the veteran carriers or the ones with more money and knowledge should set up a procedure, or at least have information compiled on how to start a suit process against the officers and departments, with attorneys to retain.

There almost needs to be a board that does some organization. I don't have enough knowledge to do it, or the money to do it. Then we can get little chapters set up here and there. Get a little organization with actual contact information instead of just a message board.

But it comes down to.. what is in it for us except for exercising our rights. If our rights are violated, we really have no offensive recourse.. just defensive. I've called a dozen attorneys from where I'm from and no one is even interested in taking up a civil rights case.

So why take the chance if you have no real recourse?
 
C

camsoup

Regular Member
Joined
Feb 23, 2008
Messages
167
Location
Red Bluff, California, USA
imported post

crash5150 wrote:
Of course its our right to carry but....

I just realized, why carry outside of larger group carries if..

a) we are going to get harrassed by law enforcement and
b) there is not the right information available to us to file lawsuits when our rights are violated.. and
c) knowledge of an attorney, team of attorneys or firms that will pick up these lawsuits/cases.

obviously complaints and internal investigations isn't doing the trick. Complaints go unanswered or brushed off by some captain. If we continue with this open carry bit, I would think that a plan needs to be set into motion to actually fight back against the LEO's that are violating our rights, and not just with the departments own procedures of these complaints.

Maybe I'm coming from a different standpoint because I have a CCW. But instead of just creating a headache for some of these departments, bad press, and increasing tension between citizens and police, why not actually hit em where it hurts... the pocket books.. of the officers and the departments.

I think some of the veteran carriers or the ones with more money and knowledge should set up a procedure, or at least have information compiled on how to start a suit process against the officers and departments, with attorneys to retain.

There almost needs to be a board that does some organization. I don't have enough knowledge to do it, or the money to do it. Then we can get little chapters set up here and there. Get a little organization with actual contact information instead of just a message board.

But it comes down to.. what is in it for us except for exercising our rights. If our rights are violated, we really have no offensive recourse.. just defensive. I've called a dozen attorneys from where I'm from and no one is even interested in taking up a civil rights case.

So why take the chance if you have no real recourse?
Click to expand...
To protect myself and loved ones, I refuse to ask for permission to carry concealed even though CCW's are fairly easy to get in this area.

I should not have to ask for permission to exercise a right.
 
C

crash5150

Regular Member
Joined
Jan 28, 2010
Messages
76
Location
Sacramento, CA
imported post

I'd carry UOC during warm days for sure but overall I'd rather carry loaded and concealed. Your right, we shouldn't need to ask permission to use our rights.. however...

law enforcement makes it very difficult to UOC and violate rights often and repeatedly. One of these times, a mistake will be made and they will want to arrest us.. but why not turn the tables and actually hold law enforcement responsible.

In order to do that.. an action plan needs to be put together with contacts. I'm sure there are attorneys that watch and read this forum and/or know of these activities. Why aren't these cases being persude?


If I go and open carry tomorrow, don't go anything wrong and I end up getting tazed and arrested for not IDing myself or not coroperating with police, I can defend myself sure.. but I'd want to strike back and sue the department and not know how to.

This forum should help us members with that. Otherwise we are fighting for our right half a$$ed
 
Y

yelohamr

Regular Member
Joined
Sep 30, 2009
Messages
516
Location
Vista, California, USA
imported post

I actually prefer to open carry alone.I don't attract attention that way. It all depends on how you position yourself. I go to the same places to shop and know where the school zones are. Most of the employees that have noticed I carry openly don't seem to care. The only time I'm standing still for any length of time is in the checkout line. Then I stand with my "gun side" facing the person in line ahead of me, with the shopping cart between us. The "non gun side" is facing the person/s in line behind me. They don't notice and there is less chance of someone trying to grab my gun.

After years of practical application, I'm told Istill have that "cop look".
But I still video everything when I leave home.
 
mjones

mjones

Regular Member
Joined
Jul 15, 2008
Messages
976
Location
Prescott, AZ
imported post

I've never open carried in a group (excluding my time as a LEO)

The primary reason that I OC is for comfort...but that is laregely because I also have a CCW.

I've also never been e-checked or asked to leave a business...
 
C

crash5150

Regular Member
Joined
Jan 28, 2010
Messages
76
Location
Sacramento, CA
imported post

So you and go what you normally do an an officer does an echeck. you pass. You still are detained for 30 minutes, searched, gun ran, and they determin that you delayed an investigation of a police officer, arrest you and hold you over the weekend cause you didn't have the cash for bail.

you file a complain with the PD and they claim there was no wrong doing even though you have an independentwitnessed that taped the whole thing...

so you are just gonna go on your way and do nothing and keep carrying? This board should not only educate us but have resources of what to do when it happens to you.
 
MudCamper

MudCamper

Founder's Club Member
Joined
Sep 17, 2007
Messages
709
Location
Sebastopol, California, USA
imported post

crash5150 wrote:
So you and go what you normally do an an officer does an echeck. you pass. You still are detained for 30 minutes, searched, gun ran, and they determin that you delayed an investigation of a police officer, arrest you and hold you over the weekend cause you didn't have the cash for bail.

you file a complain with the PD and they claim there was no wrong doing even though you have an independentwitnessed that taped the whole thing...

so you are just gonna go on your way and do nothing and keep carrying? This board should not only educate us but have resources of what to do when it happens to you.
Click to expand...
The point, aside from self-defense for the majority of Californians who cannot get a CCW permit, is to effect change. Change public opinion. Get the LE community used to seeing law abiding citizens with guns. They will eventually get over it and start treating us with respect.
 
C

crash5150

Regular Member
Joined
Jan 28, 2010
Messages
76
Location
Sacramento, CA
imported post

didn't try and turn this into an UOC vs CCW debate

but we can sit back... take the beating and wait for cops and people use to it.. but in the mean time possibly paying out of pocket a few thousand dollars here and there when you get arrested on trumped up charges... or be proactive and on the offensive and fight back legally into the officers pockets, and make them follow the law
 
S

slowfiveoh

Regular Member
Joined
Sep 15, 2009
Messages
1,415
Location
Richmond, VA
imported post

The answer is simple.

Setting up stings as police officers, wherein they use intense tactics to try and bait you into activities that you otherwise may not have ever tried, is "acceptable".

Setting up run-ins to test officers, paid, sworn, civil servants, is not "acceptable". I mean they are the enforcers of the law. Nobody needs to police them. Am I right?

[/sarcasm]
 
T

tekshogun

Founder's Club Member
Joined
Nov 17, 2009
Messages
1,052
Location
Greensboro, North Carolina, USA
imported post

crash5150 wrote:
Of course its our right to carry but....

I just realized, why carry outside of larger group carries if..

a) we are going to get harrassed by law enforcement and
b) there is not the right information available to us to file lawsuits when our rights are violated.. and
c) knowledge of an attorney, team of attorneys or firms that will pick up these lawsuits/cases.

obviously complaints and internal investigations isn't doing the trick. Complaints go unanswered or brushed off by some captain. If we continue with this open carry bit, I would think that a plan needs to be set into motion to actually fight back against the LEO's that are violating our rights, and not just with the departments own procedures of these complaints.

Maybe I'm coming from a different standpoint because I have a CCW. But instead of just creating a headache for some of these departments, bad press, and increasing tension between citizens and police, why not actually hit em where it hurts... the pocket books.. of the officers and the departments.

I think some of the veteran carriers or the ones with more money and knowledge should set up a procedure, or at least have information compiled on how to start a suit process against the officers and departments, with attorneys to retain.

There almost needs to be a board that does some organization. I don't have enough knowledge to do it, or the money to do it. Then we can get little chapters set up here and there. Get a little organization with actual contact information instead of just a message board.

But it comes down to.. what is in it for us except for exercising our rights. If our rights are violated, we really have no offensive recourse.. just defensive. I've called a dozen attorneys from where I'm from and no one is even interested in taking up a civil rights case.

So why take the chance if you have no real recourse?
Click to expand...
Letting potential harrassment by the public, police, and anyone else should not deter you from protecting yourself in such a way that the United States of America explicitly states is your right.
 
Y

yelohamr

Regular Member
Joined
Sep 30, 2009
Messages
516
Location
Vista, California, USA
imported post

crash5150 wrote:
So you and go what you normally do an an officer does an echeck. you pass. You still are detained for 30 minutes, searched, gun ran, and they determin that you delayed an investigation of a police officer, arrest you and hold you over the weekend cause you didn't have the cash for bail.

you file a complain with the PD and they claim there was no wrong doing even though you have an independentwitnessed that taped the whole thing...

so you are just gonna go on your way and do nothing and keep carrying? This board should not only educate us but have resources of what to do when it happens to you.
Click to expand...

First off, most LEOs, me included when I was one, give the person they contact an attitude check. Attitude 80% of the time is what will detain you longer than necessary. I have no problem telling a LEO my name. If I'm asked for I.D. and it's not vehicle related, I'll show my govt. I.D., myV A card. Just my name, picture and a bar code. I'll consent to an "e" check. That's all I'll give. Anything after that, I'll request a Sgt. or the watch commander. Then the officer can explain to them why he is wasting their time.

If you are looking for law suit to file, get hit by a Coors truck, they have a lot of money and any personal injury attorney will take the case. Getting one to sue a city police dept. will be harder to find...cheaply.
 
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