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Thread: Sam's Club and Security Guards

  1. #1
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    Sam's Club usually has a cop sitting in front of their store.

    If the cop tells me I can not enter open carrying, and I enter, is that trespassing?

    What if the cop was hired by the store (I am sure this is the case), is he considered an agent of the business? Is it trespassing in this case?

    What about security guards? Are they agents? Winn Dixie somtimes has a guard in front of the store.

    I am starting to think open carrying is not for me. I get too nervous and anxious when I am going new places. I am fine in Winn Dixie but Sam's Club will make me nervous. Thanks.

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    mark edward marchiafava wrote:
    No, that is not trespassing, as he is not the owner nor an agent of the owner.

    Contact the secretary of state's office, have them provide a list of all the agents for Sam's.

    Being nervous and OC'ing doesn't sound like a good combination.
    BS. The proper way to handle it is to speak to the manager. If, after explaining to the manager what the WalMart/Sam's Club policy regarding firearms is (corporate says they allow it where it's legal), he still asks you to leave - LEAVE.

    The manager may not be an owner, or an official agent of the owner either, but you can be damn well sure that if the manager tells you to leave and you don't - he'll call the police and you'll be charged with trespass (and it will hold up in court).

    Mr. M - why don't you take your own advice and remain in the store after being told to leave? Post your results here after you get out of jail.





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    Campaign Veteran XD-GEM's Avatar
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    I go to the Sam's Club on Manhattan at least once a week. The JPSO there has seen me and my gun numerous times and has never said anything to me.

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    Regular Member turbodog's Avatar
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    barf wrote:

    Mr. M - why don't you take your own advice and remain in the store after being told to leave? Post your results here after you get out of jail.
    Not him Barf. He's proven himself to be a "Do as I say, not as I do" kind of guy.
    Quote Originally Posted by NavyLT View Post
    Him: "I carry my gun concealed"
    Me: "You're not very good at it"
    Him: "What do you mean?"
    Me: "I know you have a gun"
    End of conversation.

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    Jensen,

    Mark is full of feces.

    I work security and I am acting as an agent of the client when I am on duty. I am there to enforce policies and regulations as a proxie for the manager. The manager can't be everywhere and see everything. Security Guards, as well as contracted LEOS, have the authority to inform you of store policy and ask you to leave. Yes there are guards or LEOs working who may be unaware/unclear of the policy or discriminate against OC and may be incorrect in asking you to leave but this is something to address with the manager after you have followed their instructions and left the area. Refusing to leave when told, even if the guard is incorrect, can still lead to trespass charges against you.

    Let me put it this way, I work for a BR hospital system. We don't have Gun Buster signs on the doors but we do have a policy against weapons on the property. If I or any of my fellow security officers or the contract LEOs we hire to work at the hospital tells you to leave with your gun then we are working as agents of the hospital and you must leave.


    President/ Founding Member
    Louisiana Open Carry Awareness League
    www.laopencarry.org

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    Thanks everybody. I pussed out anyway. I am afraid they will tell me to leave andmy pride will not allow me to go into the store again, which would be terrible.I spend about $300 a month there. If I were to buy the same things from Winn Dixie it would probably be double that amount, maybe triple.

    When I was sitting in class earlier yesterday, I was thinking I would go to Sam's open carrying. I thought, "So what if they tell me to leave, it is my right to be in there." (This was going to be at the one in Kenner) By the time I wentI was making excuses not to bring my gun (to the one in Metairie). I think once my CCP comes in I will only open carry when going to the range or Winn Dixie.

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    yale wrote:
    Jensen,

    Mark is full of feces.

    I work security and I am acting as an agent of the client when I am on duty. I am there to enforce policies and regulations as a proxie for the manager. The manager can't be everywhere and see everything. Security Guards, as well as contracted LEOS, have the authority to inform you of store policy and ask you to leave. Yes there are guards or LEOs working who may be unaware/unclear of the policy or discriminate against OC and may be incorrect in asking you to leave but this is something to address with the manager after you have followed their instructions and left the area. Refusing to leave when told, even if the guard is incorrect, can still lead to trespass charges against you.

    Let me put it this way, I work for a BR hospital system. We don't have Gun Buster signs on the doors but we do have a policy against weapons on the property. If I or any of my fellow security officers or the contract LEOs we hire to work at the hospital tells you to leave with your gun then we are working as agents of the hospital and you must leave.

    No, Yale, you are an employee of the hospital, not an agent.

    An Agent is registered at the Sec of States office as someone legally authourized to make decisions on the owners behalf. See the waffle house thread about the form.

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    Regular Member barf's Avatar
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    DannyAbear wrote:
    yale wrote:
    Jensen,

    Mark is full of feces.

    I work security and I am acting as an agent of the client when I am on duty. I am there to enforce policies and regulations as a proxie for the manager. The manager can't be everywhere and see everything. Security Guards, as well as contracted LEOS, have the authority to inform you of store policy and ask you to leave. Yes there are guards or LEOs working who may be unaware/unclear of the policy or discriminate against OC and may be incorrect in asking you to leave but this is something to address with the manager after you have followed their instructions and left the area. Refusing to leave when told, even if the guard is incorrect, can still lead to trespass charges against you.

    Let me put it this way, I work for a BR hospital system. We don't have Gun Buster signs on the doors but we do have a policy against weapons on the property. If I or any of my fellow security officers or the contract LEOs we hire to work at the hospital tells you to leave with your gun then we are working as agents of the hospital and you must leave.

    No, Yale, you are an employee of the hospital, not an agent.

    An Agent is registered at the Sec of States office as someone legally authourized to make decisions on the owners behalf. See the waffle house thread about the form.
    You're taking the term agent too literally. The management of a business (Sam's Club, a hospital, etc.) is authorized to kick your arse out if they want to. They don't have to be listed as agents with the LA SOS. Are you kidding or are you just that ignorant?

    You don't think so? I invite you to stay in a store after the management has told you to leave. Like I said to others here who have no common sense - post the results of what happens here after you get out of jail.

    p.s. WalMart stores has ONE person listed as owner/agent in LA. Make sure you use that as your defense, that the ONE executive at WalMart didn't personally ask you to leave your local store.

    It's a beautiful day out, I'm off OCing on Frenchmen Street.





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    I have to politely disagree with you, Barf. Please let me know if I have this backwards- Follow this post http://opencarry.mywowbb.com/forum13/26873.html

    I am going to copy and paste just a few points I made.

    I walked away and thought "How could we even be HAVING this conversation? What's going through someone's head when they decide to question that authority?

    Look, I understand that one may need to clarify whether this person (asking you to leave) is a cashier, a manager, or a General Manager. I totally get that. You don't want a cashier telling you to leave. Why? Because he has no authority over the occupants of the store.

    If there are any doubts, in anybody's mind, God help us. I don't need these kind of people walking my streets or living next to me. I'll just walk in.. So what if the cashier asks me to leave? Unless it's the "manager", I'm not going anywhere...

    After thought, who the Hell even really knows who has "Authority" over store occupants anyway? Policy differs from private place to private place, remember. You may find yourself in a store where the 73 yr old Customer Meet and Greet has the authority to tell you to leave. If you blow her off for the "manager" you are screwed when the cops showed up- You only get one chance to leave before you're criminally liable. You may have waived that right without knowing it, holding out for that "manager."

    yeah, i would totally ask to speak with a manager. but beyond that, i'm not gonna argue. either they want my business or they don't. there isn't much to discuss after they ask you to leave.
    About the "manager" thing... Look I am NOT trying to pick at this issue but I feel like I HAVE to clear this up with an example.

    I own a business. I manage the business from home. I hire Ron to be the greeter. I say, "Ron, if anybody comes into this building with a gun I need you tell them to leave. If they don't leave call the police right away."

    Days later, Bomber comes into my store OC. Ron stops him at the double doors. Ron says, "Sorry, Bomber, but you cannot carry your weapon here. I need you to leave now."

    Bomber says, "No offense, Ron, but I would like to speak with your manager about this." Bomber keeps walking (or stands still) -

    EITHER WAY- NO matter what happens from this point forward- Ron's reaction will be the same

    Ron calls 911 immediatly to report this. Officers are on the way.

    I get a phone call, at home, from the police. They tell me that a man with a gun entered my business and did not leave when requested to do so. Would I like to press charges for.. you guessed it.. Trespassing.

    Even if Bomber made it passed Ron, to the "manager", he was already asked to leave once- officially. The manager will repeat Ron's words. The cops arrive and the manger says.. We told the guy to leave more than once. That's all the cops need to hear. You needed to leave the first time. If you left between talking to the manager and the cops showing up- you are on camera.


    Guys.. It's literally THAT easy to get into a bind. Even easier if I, the owner, had posted a No Firearms sign.

    The entire world doesn't work like Walmart or Sam's Club or Home Depot. There is no need for a chain of command in a private establishment.

    Once again.. in a private establishment there is NO need for any type of chain of command.

    You walk into my HOUSE OC and my aunt asks you to leave.. Legally you still have to leave.. Even though it was my aunt and not ME, whom you spoke with. When Me, the owner, backs up the aunt on the call- the cops won't hesitate to move forward with charges.




    Er... Desettle is correct. Furthermore, employees acting in good faith commensurate with store policy, be it verbal or written, are duly authorized agents of that store by virtue of their employment with that store, within the limits delineated in store policy and law.

    Thus, if store policy says "no firearms," any employee of that store, all the way down to the 16-year-old night restocker, carries "agency" for the store, and represent the interests of the store if they ask you to leave. There are legal limits for those under 18 with respect to liability (such contracts being held non-binding without an adult's authorization), but that's to protect both the store and the minor. Even the five-year-old son of a small business owner can legally ask you to leave if he's in the store's employ.

    Thus, if I were asked to leave, I'd leave, and would return later, sans weapon, to request a conference with a manager to clarify policy.



    For more information I would look up your Louisiana State Code (state laws) on three terms:

    First Degree Criminal Tresspassing, Second Degree Criminal Tresspassing, and Third Degree Criminal Tresspassing.

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    I definitely think some of you are taking this agent thing way too literally. You obviously haven't worked in security or as a manger somewhere.

    Management and security are duly authorized voices of the owners if you want to try to keep things simplified.

    I've worked both. As an assistant manager and a security guard, at small and very large coporations/busineses. In both capacities, I've asked patrons to leave. I've called 911 when they didn't leave. I've signed the police paperwork when they were issued the tresspass warning. I've called 911 and had them arrested when they came back. I've signed THAT paper work. I've watched that arrest hold up in court. THe manager, owner, or coporate "agents" were NOT involved in any of those instances. I acted alone and my authority held up in court. (I was a guard in this case..not even a manger)

    Again, guards and managers can and do act as agents. While they may not be the registered agents on record, they do have the legal power to speak for said agents by proxy of employment by those agents.

    Do some of you honestly think that in order to be legally kicked out of a WalMart, some suit has to fly down from Bentonville, Arkansas coporate offices to do it? Seriously?

    If you truly beleive that, I honestly do challenge you to stand your ground next time some guard tells you to leave and refuse to be escorted out by the police when they get there and let us know how that went for ya when you get out of the clink.


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    JeepSeller wrote:
    I acted alone and my authority held up in court. (I was a guard in this case..not even a manger)

    Again, guards and managers can and do act as agents. While they may not be the registered agents on record, they do have the legal power to speak for said agents by proxy of employment by those agents.

    Do some of you honestly think that in order to be legally kicked out of a WalMart, some suit has to fly down from Bentonville, Arkansas coporate offices to do it? Seriously?
    That's Exactly right. You don't need to "hear it" from the right person. You only need to "hear it" once- then you're legally liable for remaining on the premise. This person, telling you to leave, does not have to be a specific employee of the business. If you disagree with an employees request- go put your gun away- come back and talk to his boss.

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    By the way- this whole issue is very simply defined

    Private Property (even if it's popular) Vs. Public Property

    A store is going to be private property- whether it's Walmart or Tim's Tiny Tool Shop down the corner.

    The employee of said store is LEGALLY on the premise- Before you walk in. Said employee can refuse you business- if you do not believe the request is warranted- take it up with management after resolving the original conflict (having the gun OC- put in car and come back)

    Even though Walmart is extremely popular- it's not public property- same with shopping malls- strip malls- etc.

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    One more thing-

    If you were NOT carrying a pistol and the employee asked you to leave- would you leave right away? Probably NOT- because- there is no PERCEIVED threat. (even though said threat never existed as you are just a normal guy carrying a pistol)

    What we're talking about here- when you are asked to leave a business because you are OC- it's because you are OC. It's not because the employee doesn't like the shoes you wear. If you have that pistol- the situation has indeed changed- to you, the employees, and the police officers that respond. No longer are you just a guy not wanting to leave.. you are now an armed trespasser with No outward appearance of trying to leave.

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    cscitney87 wrote:
    One more thing-

    If you were NOT carrying a pistol and the employee asked you to leave- would you leave right away? Probably NOT- because- there is no PERCEIVED threat. (even though said threat never existed as you are just a normal guy carrying a pistol)

    What we're talking about here- when you are asked to leave a business because you are OC- it's because you are OC. It's not because the employee doesn't like the shoes you wear. If you have that pistol- the situation has indeed changed- to you, the employees, and the police officers that respond. No longer are you just a guy not wanting to leave.. you are now an armed trespasser with No outward appearance of trying to leave.
    I think you have this wrong bud. Businesses have the right to refuse service to anyone. I think people ask us to leave because they believe it to be illegal. If Wal-Mart asked Joe the Plumber to leave, I think he would have to leave as well. A lot of people think black people are scary, but do you ever hear stories of stores kicking black people out? No you do not because Jesse Jackson would be at that store by the next day. Where is our Jesse Jackson? Do you think the student sit-ins were legal when the kids were sitting there? Those college students went to jail because they were not allowed to sit at the white counter. They thought that was not moral so they protested. That kind of militant non-violent resistance is what open carrying needs. The only problem is that people inherantly associate guns with violence. Getting kicked out of a store because we are carrying is just as prejudiced as kicking out black people. There is nothing wrong with either, but only one group gets asked to leave. If these stores were punished financially by boycotts (as they were by the blacks boycotting. The black numbers were in the tens of thousands. If, let's say, 5,000 of us stopped going to a small place like a chinese restaurant, that restaurant would be badly hurt financially) the stores would respect our right to open carry. The Alabama bus boycott led by the Reverend Dr. Martin Luther King, Jr. had a 97% success rate. 97% of us not going somewhere is like ten antpiles trying to take over the U.S.

    What open carrying need is a vocal advocate. Someone who goes on and stays on the news. I think we need to get Jesse Jackson and Al Sharpton on our side.

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    jensen_lover wrote:
    What open carrying need is a vocal advocate. Someone who goes on and stays on the news. I think we need to get Jesse Jackson and Al Sharpton on our side.
    I'm pretty sure we don't need a couple of race baiters on our side. But if you're stuck on Jesse and Al, how about Jesse Ventura and Al Pacino?

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    barf wrote:
    jensen_lover wrote:
    What open carrying need is a vocal advocate. Someone who goes on and stays on the news. I think we need to get Jesse Jackson and Al Sharpton on our side.
    I'm pretty sure we don't need a couple of race baiters on our side. But if you're stuck on Jesse and Al, how about Jesse Ventura and Al Pacino?
    I just meant we need people as vocal and influential about open carrying as these men are about civil rights. Without say 15 influential people in the 50's and 60's, civil rights would not be where they are today. Take away Abernathy, King, Evers, Parks, and a few other key players and "seperate but equal" would still be the order.

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    There are two very distinct issues in this thread:

    1. Is a contracted LEO authorized to act as an agent of the management and enforce corporate policies?

    2. Is an employee other than a registered "agent" authorized to act on behalf of the corporation to eject someone under trespass?

    In reverse order:

    2. Yes, probably, and this has been upheld many times in court. "Agent" for purposes of incorporation, and "agent" for purposes of being an "employee authorized to make decisions" are different things.

    1. No. If they are a LEO, they are a LEO. They work for the state, not the company, no matter who is paying their wages (either directly or indirectly). They can advise shoppers of corporate policy, but they have zero legal authority to act on it except at the behest of a corporate representative.


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    BTW, I've never seen either a contracted LEO or a security guard at Sam's. Y'all live in the wrong neighborhood.


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