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Thread: Nat'l park gun regs change but anti-gun hysteria stays the same

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    National parks gun regulations change, but anti-gun hysteria never changes

    ALERT: Column has a link to "Support Starbucks" on-line petition

    Wrapping up the week, we talk about packing heat in the national parks, generating heat over Open Carry on Facebook, and turning up the heat on the "only cops should have guns" crowd.

    * A tip of the hat to Jim Beal (aka DEROS) who pointed me to the Facebook page with the insane comments from "Open Carry," who MUST be a troll. Nobody could be that stupid...could they?

    :celebrateAnd get well soon, DEROS...we needs ya to keep the peace.:celebrate

    http://www.examiner.com/x-4525-Seattle-Gun-Rights-Examiner~y2010m2d19-Parks-gun-regulations-change-Monday-while-antigun-hysteria-never-changes

    Or try this:

    http://tinyurl.com/yep6ntj

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    Regular Member amlevin's Avatar
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    [size=The Department of Homeland Security, through its components, did not adequately safeguard and control its firearms. Components reported 289 firearms as lost during FYs 2006 through 2008. -- Inspector General's Executive Summary
    ][/size]

    [size=It would appear that the Dept of Homeland Security et al is a notable source of guns for the illegal trade. Let's hear it for the logic that says "only the law enforcement agencies should have guns".][/size]

    [size=Maybe, if the individual officers were given an allowance to purchase their own guns necessary to perform their jobs, and had to buy any replacements out of their pocket, the guns would be kept more secure. Funny how that works. People take better care of THEIR stuff and treat the "issued" items with almost total disregard.][/size]

    [size=][/size]

    [size=As for the "troll" Dave mentioned, his writings go a long way to revealing what a dumass he is. No more need be said.][/size]
    "If I shoot all the ammo I am carrying I either won't need anymore or more won't help"

    "If you refuse to stand up for others now, who will stand up for you when your time comes?"

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    amlevin wrote:
    Maybe, if the individual officers were given an allowance to purchase their own guns necessary to perform their jobs, and had to buy any replacements out of their pocket, the guns would be kept more secure. Funny how that works. People take better care of THEIR stuff and treat the "issued" items with almost total disregard.
    I can confirm this to be true and so can anyone else. When you buy something with your hard earned cash, it becomes property of you. You take care of it no matter what. If it's a coat, car, computer, gun, trailer...You own and maintain it. It's almost like some sort of religious experience it's so awesome. Usually when you see someone's possessions and how they maintain them, you can already say what kind of person they are. Either the enlightened owners of their own property or another little girl anchoring herself to daddy's bottomless bank.

    Security works in the same way until you finally realize there is no such thing. You can only do checks of opportunity.

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    Regular Member Ajetpilot's Avatar
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    Dave Workmanwrote:
    Various published reports indicate that park employees have been preparing for this change, and there is some concern – probably not entirely unwarranted – that some fools will parade around for macho photographs, especially around park entrance signs and other identifiable park landmarks. More intelligent gun owners will simply mind their own business as this rule becomes effective; some carrying concealed where warranted and others openly packing, where practical.
    Well, Dave, think me the fool if you must,but I'm going to have my picture taken, albeit not very macho,at the National Park Victory Celebrationon the 27th. This is an historic occasion, and I'm going to record my participation at the event.

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    Ajetpilot wrote:
    Dave Workman*wrote:
    Various published reports indicate that park employees have been preparing for this change, and there is some concern – probably not entirely unwarranted – that some fools will parade around for macho photographs, especially around park entrance signs and other identifiable park landmarks. More intelligent gun owners will simply mind their own business as this rule becomes effective; some carrying concealed where warranted and others openly packing, where practical.
    Well, Dave, think me the fool if you must,*but I'm going to have my picture taken, albeit not very macho,*at the National Park Victory Celebration*on the 27th.* This is an historic occasion, and I'm going to record my participation at the event.


    One must ask why?
    Using the "historic event" excuse has never made any genuine sense to me.

    I don't consider you a fool, but instead, someone who might want to set a better example, a leader; someone who can demonstrate to the public that armed citizens are not a bunch of yahoos.

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    Regular Member sudden valley gunner's Avatar
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    I am with you Ajetpilot, I'll take my picture with you. I don't think it will make us yahoos. I fail to understand how taking pictures of folks enjoying the passage of a recently granted law that they agree with makes them yahoos.

    I guess the pictures at Dixies and all the other meets were pictures of a bunch of yahoos?

    I in fact think the exact opposite. Taking pictures showing gun owners acting and partaking in normal activities like the normal folks they are helps with the goal many of us have on this site of normalizing open carry and gun ownership.
    I am not anti Cop I am just pro Citizen.

    U.S. v. Minker, 350 US 179, at page 187
    "Because of what appears to be a lawful command on the surface, many citizens, because
    of their respect for what only appears to be a law, are cunningly coerced into waiving their
    rights, due to ignorance." (Paraphrased)

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    Regular Member Ajetpilot's Avatar
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    I'm just an old country boy, Dave, so you're going to have to help me out with your line of thinking.

    I take it that you believeOC is fine 24/7 as some of us do (me included, except the Post Office).

    You also believe that having one's picture taken while OC is fine.

    However, you think that someone who OCs all dayeveryday should disarm, or conceal, before having his/her picture taken at a National Park.

    I don't get it. Why should I disarm (or cover up) before I allow my picture to be taken at a National Park while celebrating the removal of a firearm restriction that has been in place in one form or another since 1936?

    No disrespect intended, but I think that sounds a little hypocritical.



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    Regular Member amlevin's Avatar
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    I'm with Dave Workman on this. If all this time that we have been putting forth the idea that carrying a fiream should be treated like a normal everyday activity then why go out of our way to make it special. As I go about my daily activities I don't make it a point to pose for pictures as I buy gas, go to the supermarket, Lowes, Home Depot, the video store, etc. I might stop and take a picture or two if I am at a special location because of an attraction there or the view.

    I intend on going about my everyday activities and carrying my firearm. If that activity happens to include a National Park. If my picture gets taken, fine, but I don't intend to pose for any "look at me, I'm carrying a gun here" type picture. The more we all go about our activities without calling special attention to the fact we are armed, the more we will be ignored. Just the way it should be. Any other way and the attention we get will be most likely negative.
    "If I shoot all the ammo I am carrying I either won't need anymore or more won't help"

    "If you refuse to stand up for others now, who will stand up for you when your time comes?"

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    Campaign Veteran deepdiver's Avatar
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    amlevin wrote:
    I'm with Dave Workman on this. If all this time that we have been putting forth the idea that carrying a fiream should be treated like a normal everyday activity then why go out of our way to make it special. As I go about my daily activities I don't make it a point to pose for pictures as I buy gas, go to the supermarket, Lowes, Home Depot, the video store, etc. I might stop and take a picture or two if I am at a special location because of an attraction there or the view.

    I intend on going about my everyday activities and carrying my firearm. If that activity happens to include a National Park. If my picture gets taken, fine, but I don't intend to pose for any "look at me, I'm carrying a gun here" type picture. The more we all go about our activities without calling special attention to the fact we are armed, the more we will be ignored. Just the way it should be. Any other way and the attention we get will be most likely negative.
    +1

    "The more we all go about our activities without calling special attention to the fact we are armed, the more we will be ignored. " -- While I understand the sentiment here (I think) I would have worded this a little differently and said something like, "The more we all go about our activities without calling special attention to the fact we are armed, the more of a normalized and non-issue it will become."
    Bob Owens @ Bearing Arms (paraphrased): "These people aren't against violence; they're very much in favor of violence. They're against armed resistance."

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    Ajetpilot wrote:
    I'm just an old country boy, Dave, so you're going to have to help me out with your line of thinking.

    I take it that you believe*OC is fine 24/7 as some of us do (me included, except the Post Office).*

    You also believe that having one's picture taken while OC is fine.

    However, you think that someone who OCs all day*everyday should disarm, or conceal, before having his/her picture taken at a National Park.

    I don't get it.* Why should I disarm (or cover up) before I allow my picture to be taken at a National Park while celebrating* the removal of a firearm restriction that has been in place in one form or another since 1936?

    No disrespect intended, but I think that sounds a little hypocritical.
    You can think what you want.

    Look, this is going to be a brand new experience for a lot of people who really don't share your enthusiasm for OC, or having any kind of a gun under any circumstances, open or concealed, in a national park. That goes for park rangers as well as park visitors who have gone along with the predictions of rowdy armed yahoos prancing around their park with a frigging gun on. If you want to live DOWN to that preconceived stereotype, you go right ahead.

    There's a learning curve, and if you don't understand that, or simply refuse to understand it, then you'r enokt half as smart as I thought you are, and don't give me that old country boy crap.

    This learning curve needs to be a gentle one for a lot of reasons, not the least of which is that you and only you and like-minded people, even me, are going to have to allow these people to get used to an idea that they absolutely abhor with every fiber. Jump the gun on this (no pun intended) and all you will do is confirm everything the Brady Bunch and retired park employees and FOP and all the other anti-gunners have been blathering about.

    We, and that means YOU, need to prove these people wrong. The way to do that doesn't include posing for pictures. Amlevin and Deep Diver get this, why don't you?

    It's your job to avoid becoming a bad example. You're there like everyone else to enjoy existing park attractions, not be one.

    There's no need to celebrate. That's just an excuse to get a slap-happy photo of yourself with a gun on your hip by a national park sign. What does it accomplish, really, other than to be able to say you did it?

    A lot of people worked their butts off for this, including me. Most of that work was done way behind the scenes, with no fanfare, no spotlight.

    The NRA and VCDL and CCRKBA and a lot of grassroots activists didn't invest all the effort just to give some people an ego stroke.

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    Not a lot of time to expound on this, but for one comment: If the gun-banners think only law enforcement should have guns, and the dreamers' utopia should come true,why would they NEED guns? What kind of stupid convoluted logic is that???

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    Dave Workman wrote:
    Ajetpilot wrote:
    I'm just an old country boy, Dave, so you're going to have to help me out with your line of thinking.

    You can think what you want.

    Look, this is going to be a brand new experience for a lot of people who really don't share your enthusiasm for OC, or having any kind of a gun under any circumstances, open or concealed, in a national park. That goes for park rangers as well as park visitors who have gone along with the predictions of rowdy armed yahoos prancing around their park with a frigging gun on. If you want to live DOWN to that preconceived stereotype, you go right ahead.

    There's a learning curve, and if you don't understand that, or simply refuse to understand it, then you'r enokt half as smart as I thought you are, and don't give me that old country boy crap.

    This learning curve needs to be a gentle one for a lot of reasons, not the least of which is that you and only you and like-minded people, even me, are going to have to allow these people to get used to an idea that they absolutely abhor with every fiber. Jump the gun on this (no pun intended) and all you will do is confirm everything the Brady Bunch and retired park employees and FOP and all the other anti-gunners have been blathering about.

    We, and that means YOU, need to prove these people wrong. The way to do that doesn't include posing for pictures. Amlevin and Deep Diver get this, why don't you?

    It's your job to avoid becoming a bad example. You're there like everyone else to enjoy existing park attractions, not be one.

    There's no need to celebrate. That's just an excuse to get a slap-happy photo of yourself with a gun on your hip by a national park sign. What does it accomplish, really, other than to be able to say you did it?

    A lot of people worked their butts off for this, including me. Most of that work was done way behind the scenes, with no fanfare, no spotlight.

    The NRA and VCDL and CCRKBA and a lot of grassroots activists didn't invest all the effort just to give some people an ego stroke.
    I'll chime in here. Dave, there IS a need/desire to celebrate. We've won a great legal victory here and had one of our previously denied rights restored. I think that calls for a little celebration. It's not like OCers will be posing for pictures at National Parks every time they pass through for the rest of history. Speaking of history, historically people do tend to celebrate just a little when their civil rights are restored. We're not going to be running around waving our pistols in the air like fools, we just want the memento, so we can remember, and down the road we can say to ourselves & others "Yeah I was there when..."

    Personally, I look forward to the day when I can have my pic taken OCing at the Lincoln Memorial, the steps of the US Capitol, maybe even the Smithsonian. I wouldn't bet money that'll ever happen in my lifetime, but if and when the opportunity does present its self, you're damn right I'm going to take it. :celebrate
    It is very wise to not take a watermelon lightly.

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    Regular Member amlevin's Avatar
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    I think that calls for a little celebration. It's not like OCers will be posing for pictures at National Parks every time they pass through for the rest of history.
    Just remember that while celebrating and snapping those pictures that pictures have a way of showing up later in a manner you really didn't expect or want. Just ask any girl that allowed her boyfriend to snap a couple of pictures during private moments, just to end up seeing them posted at a later date on the internet.

    That innocent celebratory snapshot in a National Park with your gun on, perhaps as part of a group showing your glee at the rule change might well show up with a far different caption on an internet site (or even in the newspaper) putting you and every other gun carrier a bad image.

    If you insist in showing off at least make sure your fly is zipped:celebrateand your actions can't be misinterpreted----BY ANYONE!
    "If I shoot all the ammo I am carrying I either won't need anymore or more won't help"

    "If you refuse to stand up for others now, who will stand up for you when your time comes?"

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    Regular Member Metalhead47's Avatar
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    amlevin wrote:
    I think that calls for a little celebration. It's not like OCers will be posing for pictures at National Parks every time they pass through for the rest of history.
    Just remember that while celebrating and snapping those pictures that pictures have a way of showing up later in a manner you really didn't expect or want. Just ask any girl that allowed her boyfriend to snap a couple of pictures during private moments, just to end up seeing them posted at a later date on the internet.

    That innocent celebratory snapshot in a National Park with your gun on, perhaps as part of a group showing your glee at the rule change might well show up with a far different caption on an internet site (or even in the newspaper) putting you and every other gun carrier a bad image.

    If you insist in showing off at least make sure your fly is zipped:celebrateand your actions can't be misinterpreted----BY ANYONE!
    OK, so, a picture of me engaged in a lawful activity while lawfully carrying my sidearm could come back to haunt me? How is that any different from the way it is right now?
    It is very wise to not take a watermelon lightly.

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    Regular Member amlevin's Avatar
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    Metalhead47 wrote:
    amlevin wrote:
    I think that calls for a little celebration. It's not like OCers will be posing for pictures at National Parks every time they pass through for the rest of history.
    Just remember that while celebrating and snapping those pictures that pictures have a way of showing up later in a manner you really didn't expect or want. Just ask any girl that allowed her boyfriend to snap a couple of pictures during private moments, just to end up seeing them posted at a later date on the internet.

    That innocent celebratory snapshot in a National Park with your gun on, perhaps as part of a group showing your glee at the rule change might well show up with a far different caption on an internet site (or even in the newspaper) putting you and every other gun carrier a bad image.

    If you insist in showing off at least make sure your fly is zipped:celebrateand your actions can't be misinterpreted----BY ANYONE!
    OK, so, a picture of me engaged in a lawful activity while lawfully carrying my sidearm could come back to haunt me? How is that any different from the way it is right now?
    Sex with your wife or girlfriend is a lawful activity too. Having pictures of it show up in public could certainly come back to haunt you. As for a picture of you with a gun, yukking it up in a National Park can come back to haunt you if someone wants to put their own caption with it. Example would be several armed guys, slapping high fives in front of a National Park Sign. Someone decides to "Photo Shop" a dead racoon in the foreground. The caption then says "See what you get when you let gun rules go away in Parks?" It certainly doesn't portray the facts but then it does show YOU and your friends with your guns.

    What's wrong with just going about a normal day and celebrate in a manner that doesn't poke the Anti's in the nose. Ignore them. They lost so don't gloat. It will just galvanize them to be more dilligent next time.
    "If I shoot all the ammo I am carrying I either won't need anymore or more won't help"

    "If you refuse to stand up for others now, who will stand up for you when your time comes?"

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    Regular Member Metalhead47's Avatar
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    amlevin wrote:
    Sex with your wife or girlfriend is a lawful activity too. Having pictures of it show up in public could certainly come back to haunt you. As for a picture of you with a gun, yukking it up in a National Park can come back to haunt you if someone wants to put their own caption with it. Example would be several armed guys, slapping high fives in front of a National Park Sign. Someone decides to "Photo Shop" a dead racoon in the foreground. The caption then says "See what you get when you let gun rules go away in Parks?" It certainly doesn't portray the facts but then it does show YOU and your friends with your guns.

    What's wrong with just going about a normal day and celebrate in a manner that doesn't poke the Anti's in the nose. Ignore them. They lost so don't gloat. It will just galvanize them to be more dilligent next time.
    OK now you're just goin out into left field man... if they can photochop in a raccoon, they can photochop whatever they want so it really doesn't matter what I'm doing in the first place or if the photo is even of me!

    (And sometimes the anti's just need to be poked in the nose )
    It is very wise to not take a watermelon lightly.

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    Campaign Veteran gogodawgs's Avatar
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    Dave Workman wrote:
    Ajetpilot wrote:
    Dave Workmanwrote:
    Various published reports indicate that park employees have been preparing for this change, and there is some concern – probably not entirely unwarranted – that some fools will parade around for macho photographs, especially around park entrance signs and other identifiable park landmarks. More intelligent gun owners will simply mind their own business as this rule becomes effective; some carrying concealed where warranted and others openly packing, where practical.
    Well, Dave, think me the fool if you must,but I'm going to have my picture taken, albeit not very macho,at the National Park Victory Celebrationon the 27th. This is an historic occasion, and I'm going to record my participation at the event.


    One must ask why?
    Using the "historic event" excuse has never made any genuine sense to me.

    I don't consider you a fool, but instead, someone who might want to set a better example, a leader; someone who can demonstrate to the public that armed citizens are not a bunch of yahoos.
    So I, Deros, M1Gunr are headed to Oly Nat'l Park this weekend. A picnic is in order, my daughters will most likely join us. Just like any other time I have traveled and visited a Nat'l Park (remember we are a bit spoiled having 3 in driving distance) I will take pictures of the trip. I may or may not post them on my facebook or ocdo. But it is a historic event, if I remember correctly T. Roosevelt had to leave his pistol outside of the park while he was President when visiting Yellowstone. That makes it historic, there will not be any yahooing (sic) in my pics or group (I would leave), but a photographic momento to capture the changing of the times is in order.

    We are on the precipis of a changing of the times regarding the 2A. I will agree that our actions will be looked upon, but this will be no different than had I gone to Yellowstone with my family and took pics and was concealed before the 'ban' was overturned. Pictures documented that trip. Argueably there are 'fools' and 'yahoo's' on this board and they will do what they do and I give them that right.

    Most great movements have 'agitators' and people who are willing to get in 'trouble' to move the agenda forward. I am not one of those, but again, I believe those people are needed. I will cringe everytime an 'agitator' pushes the envelope but I know it is needed. (Think Dr. King, Ghandi) Our Founders were agitators, while they resisted being such as long as they could, they eventually were pushed to becoming traitors against their government.

    As I always say, 'be courtesous, be polite, be professional, be nice' and represent this movement well.

    Dave, it was a pleasure to meet you yesterday. I respectfully disagree with the 'picture' point of view. Just as most of us did with your point of view regarding ocdo at the AWB hearing in Olympia. I believe that Deros, M1Gunr, TrigerDr and humbly myself will try to be the paternal guidence to our movement.
    Live Free or Die!

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    gogodawgs wrote:
    So I, Deros, M1Gunr are headed to Oly Nat'l Park this weekend.* A picnic is in order, my daughters will most likely join us.* Just like any other time I have traveled and visited a Nat'l Park (remember we are a bit spoiled having 3 in driving distance) I will take pictures of the trip.* I may or may not post them on my facebook or ocdo.*
    Good luck with that and have a good time. Take rain gear.


    We are on the precipis of a changing of the times regarding the 2A...*

    Most great movements have 'agitators' and people who are willing to get in 'trouble' to move the agenda forward.*

    As I always say, 'be courtesous, be polite, be professional, be nice' and represent this movement well.

    Dave, it was a pleasure to meet you yesterday.* I respectfully disagree with the 'picture' point of view.* Just as most of us did with your point of view regarding ocdo at the AWB hearing in Olympia.* I believe that Deros, M1Gunr, TrigerDr and humbly myself will try to be the paternal guidence to our movement.*
    Snapshots of a family outing are far different in context than iwhat we've discussed.

    The trick is not treating it as an "historic event." It's just a picnic in the park.


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    Regular Member Ajetpilot's Avatar
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    Dave Workman wrote:
    The trick is not treating it as an "historic event." It's just a picnic in the park.


    Not an historic event? Are you kidding? The first gun control rule went into effect in 1936. Relief from seventy-four years of repression is historic in my book.

    Now, Dave, just relax. You know us. You've been to our picnics and other meetings. Have you ever, once, seen any of our group wildly waving guns around? No. Has everyone been well behaved and adult in our actions? Yes. Have pictures been taken? Of course.

    I'm proud to be an American. I'm proud to have taken an oath tosupport and defend the Constitution. And, I'm proud to exercise my First Amendment right in support of my Second Amendment right.

    Yes, Dave, this will be just like every other picnic you have attended. No need to get all worked up.

    To listen to you, it almost sounds like we should CC instead of OC.


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    Ajetpilot wrote:
    Not an historic event? Are you kidding? The first gun control rule went into effect in 1936. Relief from seventy-four years of repression is historic in my book.

    Now, Dave, just relax. You know us. You've been to our picnics and other meetings. Have you ever, once, seen any of our group wildly waving guns around? No. Has everyone been well behaved and adult in our actions? Yes. Have pictures been taken? Of course...

    To listen to you, it almost sounds like we should CC instead of OC.
    I'm not getting worked up.

    I'm suggesting that nobody else get worked up. Don't treat this as an "historic event," even if you see it that way. It's everyday business as usual from now on in the parks.

    And no, I'm not kidding. A little finesse now and then occasionally prevents a lot of angst and grief over the horizon.

    I don't care how you carry. In the back country, especially, OC makes all the sense in the world.

    Maybe I'm suggestingthat peoplejust exercise a little discretion to get the general public over the learning hump. It'll make for a more harmonious outcome.

    Now, to get your blood pressure up...read my related column:

    http://opencarry.mywowbb.com/view_to...mp;forum_id=55

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    Richard6218 wrote:
    Not a lot of time to expound on this, but for one comment: If the gun-banners think only law enforcement should have guns, and the dreamers' utopia should come true,why would they NEED guns? What kind of stupid convoluted logic is that???
    I believe you are asking a question that NOBODY can answer.

    And perhaps you have cracked a code. The opposition is rather shallow and transparent.

    Their "utopia" is your fenced-in camp.

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    Regular Member Machoduck's Avatar
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    Ajetpilot, you just said everything I was going to say, probably better than I would have.

    MD

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    Regular Member Ajetpilot's Avatar
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    Now, to get your blood pressure up...read my related column:

    http://opencarry.mywowbb.com/view_to...mp;forum_id=55
    You're right, Dave. I'm going to double my dose of BP medication today. Great article, and thanks for answering the KING 5 news story eloquently!

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    Ajetpilot wrote:
    Now, to get your blood pressure up...read my related column:

    http://opencarry.mywowbb.com/view_to...mp;forum_id=55
    You're right, Dave. I'm going to double my dose of BP medication today. Great article, and thanks for answering the KING 5 news story eloquently!
    Well, I have the highest respect for Roberta. She's a darned good reporter.

    I am certain this is not her doing. We went over this yesterday in the interview..I spent about 10-15 minutes with her and she seemed to know and understand all of this stuff. She is not stupid.

    This is some dickhead film editor at KING because I amalso certain that footage came from an earlier story they did on the Sultan gravel pit shooting area that was just closed.

    If DEROS sees this before his surgery tomorrow...they'll probably postpone it again! :what:



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