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Is it always a crime to disobey police officer's order in Michigan?

Hombre

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cscitney87 wrote:
Original Poster- I think about this too.  I was unlawfully detained and searched (myself and vehicle) in Sterling Heights more than a few times.

*To note: nothing against SHPD just using it as an example for now.

I realized there's only one thing you can do- Call in the state troopers.  Here's your situation:

Taking a stroll down 15 Mile Road, between Ryan and Dequindre

Sterling Heights PD is doing it's usual patrols, in and out of the parking lot there at Nelson Park.  Driving out, the officers spot you on the sidewalk, walking Westbound, which is in their general direction at this point.

You are Terry Stopped and detained for a very long amount of time.  The officers continue to question you over and over again- A crowd has gathered as you attempt to alert the public that you are being detained illegally and have been searched illegally.  At this point- you may be handcuffed and the pistol already taken away from you.

At this point- SHPD isn't going to swoop in and stop the abuse.  You have 1 option and that is to have somebody else dial 911 and request State Troopers or to dial the State Troopers directly- requesting immediate action.

In a perfect world- the State Troopers roll in (ten minutes?) later, assuming authority over SHPD on arrival, they order your release upon further investigation on scene.  Not sure on this but Maybe later You can file charges against the SHPD with the Michigan State Troopers police report.


That's about it.  I can only think of one way to quickly and directly interfere with and end abuse by your local police department.  Call the state troopers and hope they arrive (in time).
That is so wrong it is almost funny. But at the same time it's sad that people actually believe stuff like this.
 

cscitney87

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Over simplified but technically:

A federal agent can arrest a local, state or county officer if they are caught violating federal law. A local, state or county officer can arrest a federal agent if they are caught violating that officers state law.


When the local police department is found to be violating state law (BY ILLEGALLY DETAINING THE MAN AND HIS PISTOL) then the state police department can more than "swoop in" and have the man released from detention.

It's a system of checks and balances. Like it or not.

Here's an even More simplified quote:

"Everyone has authority over everyone else given they are within their scope of law enforcement and jurisdiction. A county deputy can arrest an FBI agent if he sees him smoking pot in his county, and an FBI agent can arrest the chief of police if he witnesses him robbing a bank. In the case you present, it would probably have to be a clear civil rights violation for an state agent to interfere, but if he felt the use of force was excessive, any law enforcement officer would take issue with the other and it should end there. It shouldn't require clear authority."
 

jeremy05

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Try to be nice to the local pd. They dont make much money and have to deal with a ton of B.S

Is it that hard to find out what the LEO wants before going all "am i being detained" on him? Just give him some respect and a couple minutes of your time, I know you are not that busy, unless his being a dusche then by all means be a dusche back. :lol:
 

jeremy05

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cscitney87 wrote:
Over simplified but technically:

A federal agent can arrest a local, state or county officer if they are caught violating federal law. A local, state or county officer can arrest a federal agent if they are caught violating that officers state law.
speaking of I remember a few months back an agent of the station over got busted for trying to get with a hooker! They got it on some tv program, was funny as hell.
 

cscitney87

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Also to add- for the original poster- you have many options when suffering abuses by your local police department. Here's a great example:

A local Sheriff’s authority is pale in comparison with that of a U.S. Marshall’s, who are charged with carrying out all lawful orders issued by federal judges, Congress, or the PRESIDENT.
*Marshalls were often the only keepers of the peace in the late 1870’s. I’m sure the names Wyatt Earp, Bat Masterson, ring a bell, they were U.S. Marshalls.
Lastly Title 28 USC Chapter 37 § 564. authorizes United States marshals, deputy marshals and such other officials of the Service as may be designated by the Director, in executing the laws of the United States within a State, may exercise the same powers which a sheriff of the State may exercise in executing the laws thereof.
So, once again, there are many alternative law enforcement agencies that may aid his fellow American citizen when abused by (local police) anyone. Remember the Oath- it's to the American people- you and me.

http://www.usmarshals.gov/contacts/districts.html

*Note that you cannot simply 911 the US Marshals to the scene. It's the general idea: You are not alone- and you do not have to suffer injustices by anyone, specially your local department/officers.
 

Hombre

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CrossPistols wrote:
Hombre1 wrote:
Mike wrote:
sasha601 wrote:
I wonder if a person must follow order from a police officer regardless if order is lawful or not?
can you cite to an Michigan law requiring you to obey police orders in the first place?

I'm serious - why assume this?  Obviously the police have the power to deain on reasonable suspicion and arrest or warrant or an exception to the warrant exception and use force to do so - but generally can the police give orders in Michigan?

The police have no power to just give blanket orders to citizens and arrest them if they do not obey.  However, one exception has already been discussed; an officer orders you to assist him/her with an arrest and you refuse. 
That could be a crime. There are a very few other exceptions and most of the time those would be under Marshall Law in extreme cases.

Further, people sometimes assume that an officer is just "abusing their authority" and alot of folks on here would say to ignore them.  How do you know you or your vehicle doesn't match the description of a suspect in a crime?  Each day countless BOL's come over the computer for various crimes across the state.  Many come across the radio.  Some are area dependent and others are not.  If you refuse to comply with an officer performing an investigation he/she may legally detain/arrest you without a warrant and hold you for a period of time.  Further, after doing so may release you if you are not involved, but you still got arrested.  You can file suit later, but if they had probable cause etc. you will see the case go bye-bye with a motion for summary disposition.
   
  Woe I never said ordered to assist in an arrest, I said summoned to assist. Big difference one is a demand, the other is a request. Try to cite Michigan law where it says I have to assist in an arrest. I may be required as a human being to help an officer if he is struggling, but even then I don't by law have to put myself in danger. Frankly that is what I pay him to do.

[/quote]
Hombre1 Key word "could". I've actually seen people who refused get convicted of obstructing. Further, I know of two cases where injured cops have successfully sued bystanders who refused to help when summoned. Food for thought.[/quote]
 

sasha601

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To think that State Police will take you side inyour encounterwith a local police is naive. This isnot going to happen.

cscitney87 wrote:
Original Poster- I think about this too. I was unlawfully detained and searched (myself and vehicle) in Sterling Heights more than a few times.

*To note: nothing against SHPD just using it as an example for now.

I realized there's only one thing you can do- Call in the state troopers. Here's your situation:

Taking a stroll down 15 Mile Road, between Ryan and Dequindre

Sterling Heights PD is doing it's usual patrols, in and out of the parking lot there at Nelson Park. Driving out, the officers spot you on the sidewalk, walking Westbound, which is in their general direction at this point.

You are Terry Stopped and detained for a very long amount of time. The officers continue to question you over and over again- A crowd has gathered as you attempt to alert the public that you are being detained illegally and have been searched illegally. At this point- you may be handcuffed and the pistol already taken away from you.

At this point- SHPD isn't going to swoop in and stop the abuse. You have 1 option and that is to have somebody else dial 911 and request State Troopers or to dial the State Troopers directly- requesting immediate action.

In a perfect world- the State Troopers roll in (ten minutes?) later, assuming authority over SHPD on arrival, they order your release upon further investigation on scene. Not sure on this but Maybe later You can file charges against the SHPD with the Michigan State Troopers police report.


That's about it. I can only think of one way to quickly and directly interfere with and end abuse by your local police department. Call the state troopers and hope they arrive (in time).
 

cscitney87

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Following that logic- no "agency" of the government/We would legally stop an illegal act if said illegal act was carried out by said "agency" or other agency.

in other words- following your logic- a police department wouldn't need an internal investigations unit. Because you're saying that- although (remember the Context) I'm being abused and illegally detained and searched- it's okay because no cop will take my (the legal and justified correct) side? I don't need to post links on literally all the news stories out there detailing 1 cop interfering with another cop's actions because they were illegal.

Remember, Original poster, in your context, the police order would be illegal to begin with (or else why would you be disobeying it?) Thanks.
 

cscitney87

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Let me also add that there are many "states rights" issues that my logic plays into- Since this is Michigan I will talk about medical marijuana.

DEA is Federal and wants to detain and illegal search a medical marijuana patient who is legally registered with the great State of Michigan. Technically, as I pointed out in above replies, Michigan State Troopers or Michigan Sheriff's and Deputes have COMPLETE AND FULL responsibility to protect that Michigan citizen patient from being illegally search and detained by Federal DEA agents. Yes- even though pot is still federally illegal- the Michigan Sheriff is appointed by the People/We and is thus responsible for the well being of said People- According to that State's Law.

You see this a lot in California when the DEA raided their dispensary retail stores. Bystanders and activists Scream at the local authorities to stop the DEA agents in their tracks. Often the local authorities will submit to the DEA all their authority and claim "There's nothing we can do." when questioned by the very people whom instilled them in their positions.

Now you see the opposite in some states with "Freedom Firearms Acts" and the like- That is, in plain text, one police power telling another police power that it's actions are illegal and will not be tolerated. (State to the Feds) So when this boils down- you get the State interfering directly in the actions of the Feds-

Take that logic- apply it to your original question- Do I have to obey an illegal order by a police officer? You might want to at the time- so you don't get your face in the dirt- but other than that you have alternative options.

Understand this isn't a perfect world scenario. It happens often in the real world. A citizen of American and the State of Michigan does have alternatives to submitting to the all authoritative Illegal orders of an officer.

Anyway sorry I'm just trying to help, honestly.
 

Hombre

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cscitney87 wrote:
Let me also add that there are many "states rights" issues that my logic plays into- Since this is Michigan I will talk about medical marijuana.

DEA is Federal and wants to detain and illegal search a medical marijuana patient who is legally registered with the great State of Michigan. Technically, as I pointed out in above replies, Michigan State Troopers or Michigan Sheriff's and Deputes have COMPLETE AND FULL responsibility to protect that Michigan citizen patient from being illegally search and detained by Federal DEA agents. Yes- even though pot is still federally illegal- the Michigan Sheriff is appointed by the People/We and is thus responsible for the well being of said People- According to that State's Law.

You see this a lot in California when the DEA raided their dispensary retail stores. Bystanders and activists Scream at the local authorities to stop the DEA agents in their tracks. Often the local authorities will submit to the DEA all their authority and claim "There's nothing we can do." when questioned by the very people whom instilled them in their positions.

Now you see the opposite in some states with "Freedom Firearms Acts" and the like- That is, in plain text, one police power telling another police power that it's actions are illegal and will not be tolerated. (State to the Feds) So when this boils down- you get the State interfering directly in the actions of the Feds-

Take that logic- apply it to your original question- Do I have to obey an illegal order by a police officer? You might want to at the time- so you don't get your face in the dirt- but other than that you have alternative options.

Understand this isn't a perfect world scenario. It happens often in the real world. A citizen of American and the State of Michigan does have alternatives to submitting to the all authoritative Illegal orders of an officer.

Anyway sorry I'm just trying to help, honestly.

You are way off base on your reasoning.Your logic isinconsistent with the law and law enforcement practice/procedure.

The place to protest/argue/fight an unlawful arrest is in a court of law. First criminal if necessary and then civil (federal civil rights violation).
 

Big Gay Al

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Taurus850CIA wrote:
Hombre1 wrote:
Serious question, here. Are some of you guys "cop wanna-bes"? Because your hostility toward the police makes it seem like the real issue is you want to be a lawman or something. Just curious.
Serious question, here. Are you an OC wanna-be, because your hostility toward the OC community makes it seem like the real issue is that you want to have the nads to assert your rights, or something. Just curious.
I can't say I've read all of Hombre1's posts in this forum, but most of what I have read does not come across as "hostile" to me. On the other hand, more than a few replies to his posts are very obviously hostile.

If I may suggest, perhaps too many are reading hostility, where they should be reading more as a question, or suggestion or friendly advice.

(ducking for the flames about to come my way.)
 

cscitney87

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"You are way off base on your reasoning.Your logic isinconsistent with the law and law enforcement practice/procedure.

The place to protest/argue/fight an unlawful arrest is in a court of law. First criminal if necessary and then civil (federal civil rights violation)."

Read again, my post- I have always maintained that I would obey the police order. I don't want to get hurt, after all. I will never resist the police physically. After reading my posts you will realize that my proposals are in conjunction with a witness requesting said alternative police powers onto the scene. Thanks.
 

mikestilly

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cscitney87 wrote:
"You are way off base on your reasoning.  Your logic is inconsistent with the law and law enforcement practice/procedure.

The place to protest/argue/fight an unlawful arrest is in a court of law.  First criminal if necessary and then civil (federal civil rights violation)."

Read again, my post- I have always maintained that I would obey the police order.  I don't want to get hurt, after all.  I will never resist the police physically.  After reading my posts you will realize that my proposals are in conjunction with a witness requesting said alternative police powers onto the scene.  Thanks.

You're better off focusing on getting everything recorded on your recorders and video if you have any. Those are things that will help you. In most cases if you're doing something legal the officer will figure it out especially if you hold a copy of the law in your pocket ;)

The problem with your reasoning is when you're being detained or you're under arrest you are pretty much helpless because anything you do can be used AGAINST you. Do you think any officer would agree with your request to contact other agencies? You may get your 911 call out there but your problem will be its usually routed to the nearest police agency not the state police and it's not like you call 911 an dictate who comes out there. The dispatcher makes that decision. In all my life I've never heard of an incident where someone called 911 while being detained where the state police came to save the day. It sounds nice but it's just not reality.
 

mikestilly

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cscitney87 wrote:
"You are way off base on your reasoning.  Your logic is inconsistent with the law and law enforcement practice/procedure.

The place to protest/argue/fight an unlawful arrest is in a court of law.  First criminal if necessary and then civil (federal civil rights violation)."

Read again, my post- I have always maintained that I would obey the police order.  I don't want to get hurt, after all.  I will never resist the police physically.  After reading my posts you will realize that my proposals are in conjunction with a witness requesting said alternative police powers onto the scene.  Thanks.

The problem with your reasoning is when you're being detained or you're under arrest you are pretty much helpless because anything you do can be used AGAINST you. Do you think any officer would agree with your request to contact other agencies? You may get your 911 call out there but your problem will be its usually routed to the nearest police agency not the state police and it's not like you call 911 an dictate who comes out there. The dispatcher makes that decision. In all my life I've never heard of an incident where someone called 911 while being detained where the state police came to save the day. It sounds nice but it's just not reality.

You'd be better off focusing on getting everything recorded on your recorders audio and video if you have it. And usually in most cases the officer will figure it out an let you go without an issue especially if you carry a copy of the law in your pocket ;)
 

Hombre

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My point to the OP's question is, the cops don't usually go around "ordering" citizens to do anything without a legal cause behind it. So, before you go disobeying a police officers orders you may want to hope you have ALL the facts (that you may not be cognizant of).

Cooperate and if you believe you were unlawfully detained, deal with it later through proper channels.
 
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Hombre1 wrote:
-snip-

How do you know you or your vehicle doesn't match the description of a suspect in a crime? Each day countless BOL's come over the computer for various crimes across the state. Many come across the radio. Some are area dependent and others are not. If you refuse to comply with an officer performing an investigation he/she may legally detain/arrest you without a warrant and hold you for a period of time. Further, after doing so may release you if you are not involved, but you still got arrested. You can file suit later, but if they had probable cause etc. you will see the case go bye-bye with a motion for summary disposition.
Please elaborate on how that detainment due to a BOLO would work? And please include cites to relevant laws that govern such a detainment?

I would appreciate your helping me understand this area of the law.

Thank you in advance.
 

sasha601

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In the ideal world we might count on one government agency to interfere with another on citizens behalf. But, we are far from the ideal world, especially when we are talking about one police agency defending a citizen from another police agency. I, personnally beleive that chance are vitually zerro. Also, I would not trust too much to what comes out of internal investigations units. Every attempt will be made to justify officers. This is just the reality of life. The only situation where any kind of punshment that internal investigation will impose if case of abuse is obvious and there is just no way to justify the officer and/or the case got so much publicity and potential liability for PD that superiors just decide that it ismuch less damage for PDif the fellow officer is punished. Again, this is not against cops. Its just life.

cscitney87 wrote:
Following that logic- no "agency" of the government/We would legally stop an illegal act if said illegal act was carried out by said "agency" or other agency.

in other words- following your logic- a police department wouldn't need an internal investigations unit. Because you're saying that- although (remember the Context) I'm being abused and illegally detained and searched- it's okay because no cop will take my (the legal and justified correct) side? I don't need to post links on literally all the news stories out there detailing 1 cop interfering with another cop's actions because they were illegal.

Remember, Original poster, in your context, the police order would be illegal to begin with (or else why would you be disobeying it?) Thanks.
 

Taurus850CIA

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Big Gay Al wrote:
Taurus850CIA wrote:
Hombre1 wrote:
Serious question, here. Are some of you guys "cop wanna-bes"? Because your hostility toward the police makes it seem like the real issue is you want to be a lawman or something. Just curious.
Serious question, here. Are you an OC wanna-be, because your hostility toward the OC community makes it seem like the real issue is that you want to have the nads to assert your rights, or something. Just curious.
I can't say I've read all of Hombre1's posts in this forum, but most of what I have read does not come across as "hostile" to me. On the other hand, more than a few replies to his posts are very obviously hostile.

If I may suggest, perhaps too many are reading hostility, where they should be reading more as a question, or suggestion or friendly advice.

(ducking for the flames about to come my way.)
Hombre1 signed up here as Hombre (- the 1), and was banned for his hostile, rude, and negative comments and self professed trolling. He then signed up as Hombre1, and quite a few of his posts retain the same attitude. He has exhibited an ability to reason and discuss topics with civility, so I won't say that all his posts are negative, but I don't see the reason for the rude comments, and downright personal bullspit that he has been known to spew. I'll be the first to admit that he has brought to light some good points, and discussed some items in a reasonable manner, but that does not offset the garbage.
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