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Thread: UAB Hospital Will Take Your Gun

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    It has come to my attention that the UAB Firearms Policy creates a no-win situation. If you arrive to be admitted to the hospital with a weapon, and you are legally open-carrying without a concealed carry permit, you cannot get your gun back.

    From: http://www.iss.uab.edu/Pol/FirearmsFtab.pdf

    Procedures for Enforcement
    A. This policy will be published in staff, faculty, and student handbooks of the University. Until such time those handbooks sufficiently incorporate the provisions of this policy, any stipulations in those handbooks which are contrary to the provisions of this policy are superseded by the wording of this policy.

    B. Appropriate signs indicating that firearms are not allowed in UAB buildings will be placed in outpatient and inpatient admitting areas and at other campus locations as deemed appropriate.

    C. Persons who enter UAB buildings,Hospital buildings, or other facilities in possession of firearms, ammunition, or dangerous weapons should be made aware of this policy and must leave the premises immediately. They may return without the firearm, ammunition, or weapon.

    D. A patient who arrives for admission to the UAB University Hospital in possession of a firearm, ammunition, or other dangerous weapon must turn such an item over to the UAB Police who will retain the item in safekeeping until retrieved by the patient upon discharge or by a family member. In either case, the person requesting return of a firearm must present a valid gun permit before the weapon will be released to him or her.

    E. Visitors to the campus who violate this policy and who refuse to leave the premises with their firearms, ammunition, or weapons are to be escorted from the premises by the UAB Police. Staff members, faculty members, or students who violate this policy are to be disciplined and are required to turn over the firearms, ammunition, or weapons to the UAB Police Department. If they refuse to do so, they are to be escorted from the premises by the UAB Police.

    This policy raises several questions. One is: What is a gun permit? Alabama only issues or recognizes Concealed Carry Licenses. There is no way to obtain a permit for a gun in the state; it is not required. You license the person, not the weapon itself. Two: If you arrive on a gurney or wheelchair with a gun on your side, and you don't have a concealed carry permit, they will not give you your gun back.

    Further, the same policy contains this paragraph:

    The University complies with, and shall enforce, all applicable local, state, and federal laws and regulations relative to this policy and necessary for its enforcement.

    Yet the policy is counter to The Code Of Alabama:
    Section 11-45-1.1: Subject matter of handguns reserved to State Legislature
    It takes a village to raise an idiot.

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    Regular Member SFCRetired's Avatar
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    "Happiness is a warm shotgun!!"
    "I am neither a pessimist nor a cynic. I am, rather, a realist."
    "The most dangerous things I've ever encountered were a Second Lieutenant with a map and a compass and a Private who was bored and had time on his hands."

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    Regular Member Brimstone Baritone's Avatar
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    Sorry for the thread necromancy, but did anyone ever get a response on this?

    Also, where did they get the idea it is okay to not return property to its legal owner except under arbitrary circumstances? Wouldn't that be criminal conversion?
    There was a time that the pieces fit, but I watched them fall away, mildewed and smoldering, strangled by our coveting. I've done the math enough to know the dangers of our second guessing. Doomed to crumble, unless we grow and strengthen our communication. -Tool, "Schism"

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    "Happiness is a warm shotgun!!"
    "I am neither a pessimist nor a cynic. I am, rather, a realist."
    "The most dangerous things I've ever encountered were a Second Lieutenant with a map and a compass and a Private who was bored and had time on his hands."

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    Regular Member Monkeytown's Avatar
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    mcdonalk wrote:
    Sorry for the thread necromancy, but did anyone ever get a response on this?

    Also, where did they get the idea it is okay to not return property to its legal owner except under arbitrary circumstances? Wouldn't that be criminal conversion?
    Now that's a $1000 word right there!! haha I was thinking the same thing. I would be filing charges for theft as they are not returning property.

    MT

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    "Happiness is a warm shotgun!!"
    "I am neither a pessimist nor a cynic. I am, rather, a realist."
    "The most dangerous things I've ever encountered were a Second Lieutenant with a map and a compass and a Private who was bored and had time on his hands."

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    Keeping the weapon constitutes theft.

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    I just called UAB Health System to find out if they are a private operation or a State agency. I was told that it was "run by the State" and that it was "State funded." I asked this question because, if it were a private institution, all of their policies (except the non-return of a pistol absent a "permit") would be, in my best judgment, legal.

    However, they are a State agency. I don't think it is legal for them to change State law on those public premises. While it would be reasonable for them to say that they cannot provide service while you are armed and reasonable to take valuables for safekeeping from an emergency patient, it is unreasonable for them not to return that perfectly legal property sans investigation of the individual.

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    UABHS (the hospital) is not an agency of the the state. Though UAB is. They are two different entities, controlled by some of the same leadership, and using services in common.

    UAB has standing policies regarding weapons on UAB property. These policies were created for the safety of everyone at UAB, and extend to the hospital as well as UAB Faculty and Staff.

    Faculty and Staff may not carry firearms on UAB property.

    Patient's firearms (and believe me they come in all the time,) will be secured by UAB police, and returned upon request, assuming that the patient wasn't brought in by LEOs for a crime, and doesn't have a crime on record that would preclude the return of the weapon.

  10. #10
    Regular Member Brimstone Baritone's Avatar
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    Add students to that list, btw.

    And then answer me the question of how disarming all faculty, staff, and students at UAB helps protect them from violence. Think UAH. Some would argue her bringing a gun just shows why we need those policies, I would say that her bringing a gun is why I would prefer to be armed if the same thing ever happened at UAB.

    ETA: Welcome to the forums!

    E(again)TA: "The University complies with, and shall enforce, all applicable local, state, and federal laws and regulations relative to this policy and necessary for its enforcement." Too bad there are none (unless UAB is private property) that help them enforce this policy. So much for compliance.
    There was a time that the pieces fit, but I watched them fall away, mildewed and smoldering, strangled by our coveting. I've done the math enough to know the dangers of our second guessing. Doomed to crumble, unless we grow and strengthen our communication. -Tool, "Schism"

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    You are preaching to the choir on that one...

    About half of the female staff at UAB, have a handgun in their car, or purse.

    Not making any judgements, just going by what I've been told.

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    Pelhooverinachase wrote:
    UABHS (the hospital) is not an agency of the the state. Though UAB is. They are two different entities, controlled by some of the same leadership, and using services in common.

    UAB has standing policies regarding weapons on UAB property. These policies were created for the safety of everyone at UAB, and extend to the hospital as well as UAB Faculty and Staff.

    Faculty and Staff may not carry firearms on UAB property.

    Patient's firearms (and believe me they come in all the time,) will be secured by UAB police, and returned upon request, assuming that the patient wasn't brought in by LEOs for a crime, and doesn't have a crime on record that would preclude the return of the weapon.
    I called UABHS. THEY said that they were a State agency. What is your source?

    ETA: Oh, and why the policies were created does not answer the question as to whether they are legal.

    I'm sorry, but your answer sounds like canned pablum. Can you cite LAW?

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    Oops,

    Swing and a miss on that last one, Eye95.

    I know more about the politics of the matter, than the drone that answered your phone call.

    I work here.

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    Pelhooverinachase wrote:
    Oops,

    Swing and a miss on that last one, Eye95.

    I know more about the politics of the matter, than the drone that answered your phone call.

    I work here.
    So does the drone who answered my call--I was referred to the Hospital Administrator's office for the answer.

    Strike 2.

    How about rather than just trading snark, you back up your assertion. If you are claiming yourself as the source, what is your position title?

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    UABHS is regulated by the state, receives money from the state, but is not a state entity. I will leave that for you, and the tax lawyers to mess with.

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    If you cannot cite a corporation, non-profit, or some other entity that "owns" UABHS or cannot tell us what position you hold at that organization, then what you say carries no credibility on a message board.

    All someone has to do to verify the information I got is to call the UABHS administrators office as I did.

    On this board, we cite sources. If we claim ourselves as sources, we don't hide behind anonymity.

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    Regular Member Brimstone Baritone's Avatar
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    @eye
    UABHS isn't part of the state. That's why my dad can work there full time and still draw teacher's retirement. I have to go with the new guy on this one.

    ETA: UAB Health Services Foundation (A part of the UAB Health Network) was founded in 1973 as a 501(c)(3) corporation. Nearly everything you never wanted to know can be found here: http://www.uab.edu/uasom/research/ht...althsystem.htm
    There was a time that the pieces fit, but I watched them fall away, mildewed and smoldering, strangled by our coveting. I've done the math enough to know the dangers of our second guessing. Doomed to crumble, unless we grow and strengthen our communication. -Tool, "Schism"

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    Barring an official source, all I have is the administrators office.

    If it is not a state agency, then there is a corporation or non-profit or some other entity that "owns" UABHS.

    I specifically asked the administrator's office if such an entity exists.

    If someone can identify that entity, then we have a verifiable answer. Apart from "trust me" or "you can call the same person I did," we do not have a verifiable answer.

    This site has always been about citing sources, not saying "trust me."

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    See my quote above. I edited because I didn't want to double post, but you ninja'd me.

    Basically just because you called 'UAB' doesn't mean you called the right UAB. The Hospital, part of the Network, and a partner of the School of Medicine, shares resources with the Network (and all of it's hospitals/clinics), the Foundation (and all of its hospitals/clinics), a VA hospital, a county hospital (Cooper Green), and a Children's hospital. It's a mess.

    ETA: There's a reason it is called the University that Ate Birmingham (among other more colorful nicknames).
    There was a time that the pieces fit, but I watched them fall away, mildewed and smoldering, strangled by our coveting. I've done the math enough to know the dangers of our second guessing. Doomed to crumble, unless we grow and strengthen our communication. -Tool, "Schism"

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    The link that you edited your post to add makes no reference to the "UAB Health Services Foundation." The link provides no insight into who owns the UAB Hospital.

    What it does is demonstrate that there is a web of organizations working together. The question remains as to what entity "owns" the hospital and is the issuing authority for the edict that guns belonging to emergency patients will be confiscated and returned only to "permit" holders.

    I am beginning to wonder if the "ownership" of the hospital is deliberately cloudy.

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    "Persons who enter UAB buildings, Hospital buildings, or other facilities in possession


    of firearms, ammunition, or dangerous weapons should be made aware of this policy


    and must leave the premises immediately. They may return without the firearm,

    ammunition, or weapon."





    This just shows that the law is NOT on their side. All they do is just ask you to leave. The only downside is if you work for or are a student of the campus. I'm sure if this was fought witha good lawyer in the event you were expelled/etc or fired you would most likely win the case. It's pretty cut and dry that they have no right or legal power to prevent you from ESPECIALLY concealed carrying on campus.

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    Your post clearly demonstrates that this is a UAB policy that is extended to the hospital, not a UABHS policy. So, regardless of who "owns" the hospital, this policy has been put in place by a State agency.

    UAB and UABHS both need to check with their lawyers.

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    Fine, the The University of Alabama Health Services Foundation, P.C.

    I'm sorry I misspoke. As you admit yourself it is kind of a tangled web. If you check the websites of the various divisions and affiliated corporations you can find a list of their boards of directors. You can go bother them to find out who the share holders are. Share holders, because they are corporations.

    The only one that is state owned (that isn't a corporation, anyway) seems to be the School of Medicine. Maybe the main hospital.

    I give up. BTW, thanks for apparently running off what could have been a new member to the forum.
    There was a time that the pieces fit, but I watched them fall away, mildewed and smoldering, strangled by our coveting. I've done the math enough to know the dangers of our second guessing. Doomed to crumble, unless we grow and strengthen our communication. -Tool, "Schism"

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    From your link:

    The University of Alabama Health Services Foundation, P.C. is a 750 plus, multi-specialty physician practice serving UAB through 16 departments, 59 divisions, and 32 centers of excellence...
    That organization is simply a collection of doctors and is described as a component of the UAB Health System.

    The key question would be: Who owns the physical plant that is the UAB Hospital?

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    Go here and search UAB B'ham AL it will tell you that the "owners" of the company is the UAB Health System Managing Board...

    http://www.irs.gov/app/pub-78/forwardToSearch.do

    This link tells a little more about UABHS...

    http://www.guidestar.org/pqShowGsRep...p;npoId=467792

    Pg. 6 on the link below states that UAB hospital is governed by a board of 18 and that each entity retains ownership of their facilities, revenues, debts, and obligations...

    sacs.ad.uab.edu/audit_cr/uabhs.pdf

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