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Did you go through a School Zone - YOUR CELL PHONE KNOWS

heliopolissolutions

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I try not to let myhard-earnedparanoia get the better of me, suffice to say I've always flipped out when I see the choppers near me.

Does the government understand the technology in our pockets,typically, maybe, perhaps, alittle better than we, or we+ google,do?

You bet your keister.
 

Pace

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You'd think, but far from true. The government is always behind on technology because it takes 2-3 years to get what you order.

I worked in 7WTC for a government agency.


heliopolissolutions wrote:
I try not to let myhard-earnedparanoia get the better of me, suffice to say I've always flipped out when I see the choppers near me.

Does the government understand the technology in our pockets,typically, maybe, perhaps, alittle better than we, or we+ google,do?

You bet your keister.
 

tekshogun

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Government, behind on technology? Perhaps some levels and agencies of government may be behind, but as a whole, from the very top, the Federal level, government is the one driving much of the technology we use and look forward to using.
 

marshaul

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tekshogun wrote:
Government, behind on technology?  Perhaps some levels and agencies of government may be behind, but as a whole, from the very top, the Federal level, government is the one driving much of the technology we use and look forward to using.
This is probably the most vastly overrated reality, ever.
 

tekshogun

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marshaul wrote:
tekshogun wrote:
Government, behind on technology? Perhaps some levels and agencies of government may be behind, but as a whole, from the very top, the Federal level, government is the one driving much of the technology we use and look forward to using.
This is probably the most vastly overrated reality, ever.
Well, sure, one must realize that it is not driving ALL of our technology but everything from digital communications, the Internet, GPS, weapons, blah blah blah, come out of governement research or government contracts.
 

Pace

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You obviously never worked with government in a technological capacity then. Most of the technology they use is a generation old, because it takes years to get what they request. There were government agencies in some areas still wired with ISDN lines for internet as recent as 2005.

As for weapons, yes & no. It takes almost 10 years for any new project to be developed, where in private industry without government contracts can be done in a year or two. This is why they are only now starting to develop things like magnetic-rail guns, when the technology was being talked about 25 years ago. It's also why we are flying planes with 20 year old technology on the front of our airforce.

Some of the technology may seem "cool" to you that they are talking about but much of it was developed in 1980-1990 and its only now being implemented.






tekshogun wrote:
Government, behind on technology? Perhaps some levels and agencies of government may be behind, but as a whole, from the very top, the Federal level, government is the one driving much of the technology we use and look forward to using.
 

Pace

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And its generations old. The internet as built now can not last another 10 years. I wont go into details, but the packet methods, the IP system can grow much more.

tekshogun wrote:
marshaul wrote:
tekshogun wrote:
Government, behind on technology? Perhaps some levels and agencies of government may be behind, but as a whole, from the very top, the Federal level, government is the one driving much of the technology we use and look forward to using.
This is probably the most vastly overrated reality, ever.
Well, sure, one must realize that it is not driving ALL of our technology but everything from digital communications, the Internet, GPS, weapons, blah blah blah, come out of governement research or government contracts.
 

marshaul

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tekshogun wrote:
marshaul wrote:
tekshogun wrote:
Government, behind on technology?  Perhaps some levels and agencies of government may be behind, but as a whole, from the very top, the Federal level, government is the one driving much of the technology we use and look forward to using.
This is probably the most vastly overrated reality, ever.
Well, sure, one must realize that it is not driving ALL of our technology but everything from digital communications, the Internet, GPS, weapons, blah blah blah, come out of governement research or government contracts.
OK, weapons are the only valid one there. Weapons would have a severely restricted market. Very few gun nuts can afford stealth bombers and the like.

GPS, on the other hand, has been restricted from the market by the force of law. Government has appropriate demand for itself. In its absence, we would have stronger GPS technology, more freely available, at lower cost. This is a fact accepted by virtually everybody except for State shills.

Government "drives" GPS technology only by fiat. Only by the force of law was it able to claim sole demand to the most accurate GPS technology. This is a fact. And there's no valid reason the military needs better GPS than I do (or only statist reasons). When a technology has demand artificially reduced by legislative fiat, progress has not been in fact "driven" at all, but rather hampered.

The notion that government can create the greater demand is rather absurd, in cases where you have a nascent or existing demand amongst the citizenry and their businesses. The government can only create demand by spending. Furthermore, the government's spending is limited by the extent of its resources, which are derived from an economy from which government can only extract fractions. Therefore, the sum of all total possible government-generated demand is necessarily a small fraction of the possible market-generated demand. Thus, a free market will always provide the greater potential (and ultimately, realized) demand for genuinely useful technological progress. This is how markets work. Not government.

Even if you look at its earliest origins, GPS was a military project bloated with bureaucratic inefficiency and military fantasy. The idea was to create a system that would function accurately without human oversight for an arbitrarily long period of time, so that the survivors had time dig themselves out of their bunkers after an imaginary nuclear attack, and, using GPS of course, initiate a retaliatory repopulation effort. To this end, the GPS system initially implemented at the government's behest was unnecessarily complicated and expensive, as well as resulting in extremely large and heavy satellites which are massively expensive to send into space.

Anyway, GPS driven by a civilian market would be cheaper, using inexpensive small satellites rather than ludicrously expensive government-paid-for units, more efficient, and would provide an decentralized, ad hoc infrastructure more amenable to rapid technological advancement and piecemeal expansion driven by spreading market demand. Basically, market-driven GPS would be better in every way, except to military fantasists.

Government deserves basically no credit for the internet. Essentially everything that defines the internet is what makes it NOT darpanet (if that makes any sense). Basically, the protocols upon which the internet is run were designed, in contrast to their predecessors, to be inherently open and decentralized. It's inherently anti-governmental in operation, by design.

The reality is that all communications technology is more profitable in the private sphere. Profit drives progress. Therefore, government does not drive communications progress. It merely jumps on the bandwagon early with stolen money and takes all the credit, asserting "we wouldn't have this if we didn't steal money to produce it!".

Theft is rarely justified, either in principle or through utilitarian aims.



Edit: Significant edits for clarity.
 

Pace

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OK, weapons are the only valid one there. Weapons would have a severely restricted market. Very few gun nuts can afford stealth bombers and the like.

G

Eh? Stealth bombers are 30 year old technology. It actual is used against 60 year old radar technology. There has been plans for ground-sat laser and LIDAR based systems for almost 30 years to that would make it close to impossible for anyone to use stealth technology to hide. It would also allow precise measurement of large ground areas instantly to find where enemies are, tanks etc so that we'd know where to use satellite to then see.

This technology is used in mapping already, although not as massive as could be used.

To give you an idea, we are spending billions (trillions?) on our borders but a system that would scan the border on the ground and satellites would cost billions but be almost impossible to trick. Why don't we have it?
 

marshaul

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The fact that the stealth bomber is archaic is not really relevant to what I'm getting at. It merely provided a random example of useless expense that a market wouldn't justify. That they were the pinnacle of technological achievement in their day is sufficient to make my point. I didn't say stealth bombers remained high-tech, I merely implied that they probably wouldn't exist if it weren't for government.

Which would be fine, because the stealth bomber is probably the most useless invention, ever. Right up there with the Comfort Wipe.
 

CA_Libertarian

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The government is a mixed bag... they develop some crazy stuff, but in many (most?) areas they're still in the stone age.

Strap on your foil hats, folks. It's story time:

A family friend worked for Lawrence Livermore National Lab as an aerospace engineer. In the mid-90s, he told us about a project that had been declassified. His job was to retrofit a camera into the belly of an UAV.He wasn't at liberty to divulge some of the technologies, but he said it would be able to read a license plate from orbit (they were planning to mount this technology on satellites, too).

IIRC, it was 1997 when he told us this. He said, "now, this was a project I worked on more than 10 years ago. Imagine what they've got me working on now..."

My guess is this was a project at the tail end of the cold war. Of course, I'm sure the government would NEVER use this sort of spy tech to keep tabs on civilians... right?

I believe that despite technological capability, the government is too inneficient to use it properly.Bureaucrats could **** up a wet dream!Our best comfort is their incompetence.
 

tekshogun

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marshaul wrote:
OK, weapons are the only valid one there. Weapons would have a severely restricted market. Very few gun nuts can afford stealth bombers and the like.

Well, it goes well beyond stealth bombers.

GPS, on the other hand, has been restricted from the market by the force of law. Government has appropriate demand for itself. In its absence, we would have stronger GPS technology, more freely available, at lower cost. This is a fact accepted by virtually everybody except for State shills.

Government "drives" GPS technology only by fiat. Only by the force of law was it able to claim sole demand to the most accurate GPS technology. This is a fact. And there's no valid reason the military needs better GPS than I do (or only statist reasons). When a technology has demand artificially reduced by legislative fiat, progress has not been in fact "driven" at all, but rather hampered.

Not true. You're referring to Selective Availability which Bill Clinton ordered turned off and the military has retained the ability to deny signals to certain areas of the world (to prevent enemy units from using it). Also, the FAA has put together WAAS (wide area augmented system) to provide more accuracy (about 3 meters) and before WAAS, the U.S. Coast Guard developed, funded, and established an-open-to-the-public system called Differential GPS which allows enabled devices to receive correction data from land-based sites that provide sub-meter accuracy depending on the quality of the publically available devices. Our GPS technology is resultant of the same technology used by the government and you do, if you have the money, have access to the same levels of accuracy. Only problem is, why do you care if your car is 20 centimeters off? Unless you're digging trenches for water mains or dropping precision munitions into bunker airshafts, you don't need super-accurate GPS. Plus, if you want, you can use the Russian GLONASS system...

The notion that government can create the greater demand is rather absurd, in cases where you have a nascent or existing demand amongst the citizenry and their businesses. The government can only create demand by spending. Furthermore, the government's spending is limited by the extent of its resources, which are derived from an economy from which government can only extract fractions. Therefore, the sum of all total possible government-generated demand is necessarily a small fraction of the possible market-generated demand. Thus, a free market will always provide the greater potential (and ultimately, realized) demand for genuinely useful technological progress. This is how markets work. Not government.

There was no demand for the Internet until government researchers showed what could be done with it. There was no demand for high-speed Interstate highways until the government developed a network of highways for use by the military.

Even if you look at its earliest origins, GPS was a military project bloated with bureaucratic inefficiency and military fantasy. The idea was to create a system that would function accurately without human oversight for an arbitrarily long period of time, so that the survivors had time dig themselves out of their bunkers after an imaginary nuclear attack, and, using GPS of course, initiate a retaliatory repopulation effort. To this end, the GPS system initially implemented at the government's behest was unnecessarily complicated and expensive, as well as resulting in extremely large and heavy satellites which are massively expensive to send into space.

Are we still on this? Well, EVERYTHING is expensive to send into space, especially if you have to put it into a far out place such as geostationary orbit (which is where GPS satellites reside) and they must be reliable because you can't exactly go out and fix one or several like you can the hubble or ISS.

Anyway, GPS driven by a civilian market would be cheaper, using inexpensive small satellites rather than ludicrously expensive government-paid-for units, more efficient, and would provide an decentralized, ad hoc infrastructure more amenable to rapid technological advancement and piecemeal expansion driven by spreading market demand. Basically, market-driven GPS would be better in every way, except to military fantasists.

Much of it is now driven by the civilian market, as a matter of fact, many companies have begun utilizing geo-location technology developed from outside of the US. Look at companies such as Thales (now Magellan), Trimble, etc. They develop technology available to you and me that can be used exclusively or inclusively with GLONASS and GPS as well as the ESA's Galileo system if it ever gets off the ground.

Government deserves basically no credit for the internet. Essentially everything that defines the internet is what makes it NOT darpanet (if that makes any sense). Basically, the protocols upon which the internet is run were designed, in contrast to their predecessors, to be inherently open and decentralized. It's inherently anti-governmental in operation, by design.

Anti-governmental? I don't think so. The United States Governement still holds the keys to it. You think ICANN is in control? The technology that DARPAnet ran off of then is still in use today, it's called IP, more notably, TCP/IP.

The reality is that all communications technology is more profitable in the private sphere.

There is no arguing there but the government still makes money off of the private sector making money off of technology developed by the government or outside of it. Look at the FCC and how they control and set rules and regs for the radio waves and the BILLIONS it makes every year off of selling and auctioning spectrum allocations.

Profit drives progress. Therefore, government does not drive communications progress. It merely jumps on the bandwagon early with stolen money and takes all the credit, asserting "we wouldn't have this if we didn't steal money to produce it!".

Theft is rarely justified, either in principle or through utilitarian aims.

...alrighty, I can't comment on that charge but it has been noted.
 
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