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Thread: Oklahoma State Rep. David Derby on his bill to legalize open carry in Oklahoma

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    Smarter way to protect our good Oklahomans
    POINT OF VIEWS: Freedom to open carry firearm

    BY STATE REP. DAVID DERBYFebruary 22, 2010



    Our Founding Fathers were intelligent people.
    Almost 234 years ago, they fought for freedom from tyranny and oppression. After declaring independence from the British, they worked toward creating a document that would present a better form of government for Americans. In 1787, the Constitution was formed. Two years later, the Bill of Rights was introduced.


    I believe an open-carry rule would go a long way toward impeding criminals from wreaking havoc.


    Included in that was the Second Amendment. It gave Americans a right to bear arms to protect themselves.
    At times, this amendment has come under attack. Especially so in recent years, as anti-gun activists lobby to take firearms away from honest, law-abiding citizens. Why is that? Have they never heard the saying "When guns are outlawed, only outlaws will have guns”? I suppose not.
    And there has been a lot of talk from the current federal administration about additional gun registrations and potential arms confiscation. I, on the other hand, would like to strengthen a person’s right to own guns in a responsible manner.
    This session, I have submitted an amendment to House Bill 3239 that would enable those who already have a concealed carry license the freedom to open carry a firearm.
    To some, that might seem like an outrageous maneuver, even irresponsible. I respectfully disagree.
    I believe our Founders had great wisdom in allowing citizens to bear arms. I also believe that if good people are not armed, we’re all in that much more danger. Since bad guys do things like rob banks, kidnap children and knock off convenience stores, there must be an immediate consequence for them to consider. They do all this knowing that good people around them aren’t in position to stop their criminal efforts. And since they realize our hardworking police forces are at closest a few minutes away, that’s all the time they need to get what they want.
    This must stop. I believe an open-carry rule would go a long way toward impeding them from wreaking havoc. They would have to think twice about committing a crime, knowing there might be a regular, everyday person inside who would respond to dangerous threats in a way that could directly harm the would-be criminal.
    In short, I believe good Oklahomans having the right to have weapons on them in public will help crime rates go down, benefiting banks, businesses and the safety of every citizen.
    How are crime rates now, when the average person cannot take a gun with them out and about? Not good. But the laws now aren’t stopping bad citizens from hurting others. Keeping guns out of the hands of good people isn’t the answer. Neither is gun confiscation. When confiscations occur in countries around the world, the crime rates don’t go down, as the "bad guys” still have their guns.
    I understand this idea might seem a little outside-the-box, but it is one I think will benefit everyday people who, at present, have no real retaliation if faced with a criminal.
    Derby, R-Owasso, represents District 74 in the Oklahoma House of Representatives.


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    This is good, I hope all works out for you all citizens.. Wish we had some one like that in Texas to push the same open carry issure,, but we don't.. GOOD LUCK GUYS!!

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    cowman wrote:
    This is good, I hope all works out for you all citizens.. Wish we had some one like that in Texas to push the same open carry issure,, but we don't.. GOOD LUCK GUYS!!
    Keep working the issue in Texas - it will take a while especially since your legislature only meets once every 2 years...

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    Awww, c'mon M.E.M. Rep Derby does tip his hat to "tyranny" when he mentions the confiscations in other countries ... but then he brings it right back to crime

    Actually folks, the past several months, the nightly news in Oklahoma (OKC metro)has had at least one shooting or armed robbery almost every night.

    One month, one bank was robbed three times in three weeks ... and it was right next to the VA clinic SO goes to!

    Here, the past 8 weeks or so, there have been several convenience stores being held up ... or attempted holdups.

    Of course, OKC wouldn't even admit that we had gangs until about 5 years ago ... and even went out of their way to deny gangs were in OKC in the wake of a real, honest-to-god, gang-banger shootoutoutside ofa mall at Christmas.

    I realize that this bill is notoptimal, but it IS a step forward and I, for one, will take any improvement that we can get!


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    I can't wait to see what happens with this. Maybe his way of thinking will rub off on the rest of our elected officials.

    The only problem with it I see is we would still have to have a permit. Still not a freedom if we have to have a permit. But its a step in the right direction for anyone who chooses to OC or wants the option to do so.
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    mark edward marchiafava wrote:
    Why not do as I do ?

    When a Louisiana state rep introduced a totally ridiculous piece of "legislation" concerning OC'ing, I called him on the phone, explained the difference between a right and a privilege. Unlike MOST Louisiana political ******, he actually LISTENED and LEARNED, the next day he WITHDREW his bill.

    Instead of settling, why not go for the brass ring?
    Well said.
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    Yeah I understand that they do it only every 2yrs.... but at the same time there should be some type ofpreparation time,.... C'mon Texas Law makers have some type ofenthusiasm about this... thing is they are hoping this issue blows over.. I don't think Law markers have enough in them to enforce this issue anymore .

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    AMEN!!! IT'S ABOUT TIME! ALL OF US , NOT JUST CCL HOLDERS



    JIM GARINGER

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    LIFE N.R.A.

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    Bullbuster wrote:
    I can't wait to see what happens with this. Maybe his way of thinking will rub off on the rest of our elected officials.

    The only problem with it I see is we would still have to have a permit. Still not a freedom if we have to have a permit. But its a step in the right direction for anyone who chooses to OC or wants the option to do so.

    I personally don't have a problem with being required to have a permit in order to open carry. Especially with the gun safety course you are required to take in order to get that permit. I want to know that the person sitting at the restaurant table across from me, openly carrying, knows how to use it and isn't strutting around like the cock-of-the-walk because he's got the right to carry a gun on his hip. I also want to know that convicted felons aren't going to be masquerading as law abiding citizens with the right to carry openly. I am not so niave to think that it's not going to happen. That person openly carrying at the table across from me may very well have been convicted of armed robbery, and if we allow open carry without permits, the police will have no control, no reason to stop said person and request verification of his right to openly carry.

    I do have a problem with some of the other gun laws in this state, however.

    Example 1: I work for an attorney indowntown OKC, across from the Metro Transit Station, I have a concealed carry permit, Ihave a S&W 38 Special in a concealed pouch in my purse. I WILL NOT walk the 4 blocks to the court house because, even though I have passed OSBI's background checks, I am still not considered trustworthy enough to walk into the courthouse with my weapon.

    Example 2: Because my adult daughter has a felony record (uttering a forged instrument and false personation) she cannot legally travel, or be around my husband or myself as long as we are carrying our concealed weapon.

    I know my post has gone off topic to some extent, but if we're debating the open carry vs. the status quo, we might as well try to get other reforms while we're at it.

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    mark edward marchiafava wrote:
    SML,
    If you don't have a problem with a permit, please don't assume you (and others who share your statist view) have the right to force permits on others.
    As you admit, you want to dictate to others how THEY must live.
    In order to carry, they must meet YOUR criteria.
    Land of the free? LOL, not even a chance.
    Really, seriously? Are you saying that you are comfortable with and encourage every person who wants to do so, to run right out and buy a gun and have it on his person, within his reach and control if he hasn't a clue how to even use it safely? That's like giving your car keys to someone who's never driven a car, ......and further, are you saying you have no problem with people convicted of violent crimes to be able to carry a weapon, openly, with no recourse?

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    We all have the right to freedom of speech too, but not the right to yell "Fire" in a crowded theater.

    We have the right to follow any religion we choose, but not the right to allowour children to die if our religion forbids medical intervention.

    I have no problem with the right to keep and bear arms, in fact, I think the government has infringed too much on that right with the assault weapon ban and such. I think a person has the right to own any weapon they choose to own. If I wanta full auto AK-47 to use for home protection, I ought to be able to do so. I don't, however, think I have the right to walk down main street with it slung over my shoulder.

    I do think that there should be certain restrictions in place for people who wish to carry openly in a public place, those restrictions being: A. that they safely know how to use it, and B. that they have not been convicted of a violent felony, i.e. permits.

    Maybe my view of the world and what is right and wrong is severly screwed up because I have worked for a criminal defense lawyer far too long (23 yrs). I've seen too many wife beaters, armed robbers,drugdealers, murders, and child molesters, not to think that some restrictions should be in place to make it more difficult for the "bad" people to be able to continue with their criminal lifestyle.

    If that offends you, then vote against the measure. See, that's the beauty of it, neithermy opinion, nor yours matter. It's up to our elected officials to determine what's in the best interest of the public.

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    The penal/criminal codes already have punishments for criminal acts, with or without guns. Do we really need to infringe the only right that shall not be infringed into oblivion? Prior restraint laws only harm law-abiding citizens, and are unconstitutional.

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    As a resident of Oklahoma and holder of a concealed carry permit, I agree that open carry would do a lot to deter crime. That being said, there are some people who are legally allowed to possess firearms who might give the rest of us a bad name. Some of the 'rednecks' from the sticks marching down Main Street with a 'six-gun' on each hip would be rather scary for some folks.

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    sml wrote:
    We all have the right to freedom of speech too, but not the right to yell "Fire" in a crowded theater.
    What MEM is saying in his own way is that you certainly do have the right to yell "fire" in a crowded theater; but there are consequences to your actions.

    By allowing the state to require us to get permits and such for guns it changes it from a right into a privilege. As N6ATF pointed out; this is called "prior restraint". out of the entire bill of rights guess what prior restraint is applied to?

    If prior restraint was applied more to the first amendment you would need a permit to ungag yourself before talking just because you could yell "fire" in a crowded theater. A permit to buy a pen because it could be used to write something inflammatory.

    You don't need a drivers license to buy a car. But you could certainly buy one and run someone down with it. Maybe we should require a permit to buy a car?

    It's not your right or mine to tell people what they can and can not do, but if they do something that tramples on our rights there are consequences to their actions. With each right comes a corresponding responsibility.

    Rights should only be disabled with specific due process. That's what the courts are for. And as for felons.... the government just has to change what is a felony and suddenly a felony conviction for driving 56 mph in a 55 mph zone takes away your right to bear arms.
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    mark edward marchiafava wrote:
    Actually, you DO have the right to yell "fire."
    Do you really not know that?

    Depend on "elected officials" to determine what's best?
    LOL, you just convinced me of how much you've yet to learn.

    Hope you do, unlike most here.
    Okay, excuse me, I misspoke. You do have the right to yell fire, if there actually is a fire, but FALSLYyelling fire in a theater is not protected speech, Schenck v. United States,249 U.S. 47 (1919), which was further narrowed by Brandenburg v. Ohio, 395 U.S. 444 (1969) holding that government cannot punish inflammatory speech unless it is directed to inciting and likely to incite imminent lawless action, i.e. causing riots. At least that's how I interpret it.

    It's always been my understanding that if you don't like the way a lawmaker is doing his job, elect someone else next time. I don't trust politicians any further than I can throw them, I mentioned elected officials only because I do not expect this to be something that goes to a state-wide election, it will either pass or fail with our lawmakers. I, for one, hope that it does pass. Should it pass and if it contains the requirement that I receive a permit before I can carry openly, I am confident that I would qualify for same.

    Thanks to Oklahoma's Make my Dayand Stand Your Ground laws, there is nothing reventing you from keeping and bearing arms in your own home, or on your own property. I just don't see what the fuss is all about with requiring permits, unless you have a reason to think you wouldn't otherwise qualify. To also respond to Brass Magnet, there is nothing in the OklahomaStatutes that require you to have a permit to BUY a gun, provided you are not otherwise disqualified to do so.

    now, it's not only felons that do not qualify for conceal carry permits in Oklahoma, it also includes anyone under the age of 21; persons who are not United States citizens; anyone who has been adjudicated as incompetent; anyone undergoing treatment for mental illness, or having attempted suicide within the last 10 yrs; anyone convicted of the following misdemeanors: assault and battery, stalking, violation of protection order, any conviction relating to drug use or possession of drugs or domestic abuse. How do you propose to stop people falling into those groups from openly carrying? Is it right for the public to demand that those persons not be allowed to carry openly?

    You guys are not looking at the big picture here, relish the small victories first, then push for the bigger ones. Push to get the open carry with a permit first (if necessary), then push to remove the permit. I was absolutely shocked 15 yrs ago when this state allowed us to start carrying a concealed weapon in public (as long as they knew who you were via permits), now we're allowed to carry them into state parks. Hopefully, God willing, we'll soonbe allowed to carry openly. With or without a permit will be up to the lawmakers. I, for one, will be happyto jump through whatever hoops the state requires in order to legally carry my weapon in public, whether that be openly or concealed.

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    sml wrote:
    mark edward marchiafava wrote:
    Actually, you DO have the right to yell "fire."
    Do you really not know that?

    Depend on "elected officials" to determine what's best?
    LOL, you just convinced me of how much you've yet to learn.

    Hope you do, unlike most here.
    Okay, excuse me, I misspoke. You do have the right to yell fire, if there actually is a fire, but FALSLYyelling fire in a theater is not protected speech, Schenck v. United States,249 U.S. 47 (1919), which was further narrowed by Brandenburg v. Ohio, 395 U.S. 444 (1969) holding that government cannot punish inflammatory speech unless it is directed to inciting and likely to incite imminent lawless action, i.e. causing riots. At least that's how I interpret it.

    The larger point was that you aren't subject to prior restraint to exercise free speech; one of your rights.

    It's always been my understanding that if you don't like the way a lawmaker is doing his job, elect someone else next time. I don't trust politicians any further than I can throw them, I mentioned elected officials only because I do not expect this to be something that goes to a state-wide election, it will either pass or fail with our lawmakers. I, for one, hope that it does pass. Should it pass and if it contains the requirement that I receive a permit before I can carry openly, I am confident that I would qualify for same.

    But what about those who don't qualify for the permit? Someone who smoked pot once 10 years ago or something? Do we have the right to tell them they can't protect their life and the life of their loved ones?

    As far as elected officails; most of us at OCDO are quite politically active, trying to get the laws changed. If that doesn't work, we go through the courts.


    Thanks to Oklahoma's Make my Dayand Stand Your Ground laws, there is nothing reventing you from keeping and bearing arms in your own home, or on your own property. I just don't see what the fuss is all about with requiring permits, unless you have a reason to think you wouldn't otherwise qualify. To also respond to Brass Magnet, there is nothing in the OklahomaStatutes that require you to have a permit to BUY a gun, provided you are not otherwise disqualified to do so.

    Whether a permit is required (making it a privilege) or not. My greater point was addressing your previous post where you endorsed a permit system.

    now, it's not only felons that do not qualify for conceal carry permits in Oklahoma, it also includes anyone under the age of 21; persons who are not United States citizens; anyone who has been adjudicated as incompetent; anyone undergoing treatment for mental illness, or having attempted suicide within the last 10 yrs; anyone convicted of the following misdemeanors: assault and battery, stalking, violation of protection order, any conviction relating to drug use or possession of drugs or domestic abuse. How do you propose to stop people falling into those groups from openly carrying? Is it right for the public to demand that those persons not be allowed to carry openly?

    Why should someone have to wait for 21 to defend themselves? Why not 18? Why should the right be limited to U.S. citizens? Who says who's incompetent? What qualifies as a mental illness? What are the circumstances to the rest of the scenarios you wrote?

    You've outlined perfectly whats wrong with the permit system. We shouldn't have to ask the states permission. If people get their gun rights disabled through specific due process, no problem, but if there is prior restraint, big problem.


    You guys are not looking at the big picture here, relish the small victories first, then push for the bigger ones. Push to get the open carry with a permit first (if necessary), then push to remove the permit. I was absolutely shocked 15 yrs ago when this state allowed us to start carrying a concealed weapon in public (as long as they knew who you were via permits), now we're allowed to carry them into state parks. Hopefully, God willing, we'll soonbe allowed to carry openly. With or without a permit will be up to the lawmakers. I, for one, will be happyto jump through whatever hoops the state requires in order to legally carry my weapon in public, whether that be openly or concealed.

    Would you allow your nail clippings to be put on file along with your fingerprints and full background? Would you tell them the serial number of every single firearm you own? Would you describe your past relationships to them? Would you allow them to implant an IF transmitter? Just how far would you go to beg the state to grant you that privilege?
    We are looking at the big picture. Some of us disagree about how to get there in the end but we all want freedom to one extent or another. It has in fact worked in some places to start with stricter laws and get them slowly less strict. But changing the laws takes years, years that some people pay for with their lives. So others believe it's better to try to get it all ASAP.

    The big picture as I see it, is to allow all the LAC (Law abiding citizens) to defend themselves without having to jump through hoops. The hoops that we don't have to jump through with our other rights.
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    mark edward marchiafava wrote:
    No, we all DON'T want freedom, just me a very few others.
    Most want a police state, as long as it meets with their criteria.
    Some want some freedoms, some want other freedoms, some want FREEDOM. I misspoke.
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    sml wrote:
    mark edward marchiafava wrote:
    Actually, you DO have the right to yell "fire."
    Do you really not know that?

    Depend on "elected officials" to determine what's best?
    LOL, you just convinced me of how much you've yet to learn.

    Hope you do, unlike most here.
    Okay, excuse me, I misspoke. You do have the right to yell fire, if there actually is a fire, but FALSLYyelling fire in a theater is not protected speech, Schenck v. United States,249 U.S. 47 (1919), which was further narrowed by Brandenburg v. Ohio, 395 U.S. 444 (1969) holding that government cannot punish inflammatory speech unless it is directed to inciting and likely to incite imminent lawless action, i.e. causing riots. At least that's how I interpret it.

    It's always been my understanding that if you don't like the way a lawmaker is doing his job, elect someone else next time. I don't trust politicians any further than I can throw them, I mentioned elected officials only because I do not expect this to be something that goes to a state-wide election, it will either pass or fail with our lawmakers. I, for one, hope that it does pass. Should it pass and if it contains the requirement that I receive a permit before I can carry openly, I am confident that I would qualify for same.

    Thanks to Oklahoma's Make my Dayand Stand Your Ground laws, there is nothing reventing you from keeping and bearing arms in your own home, or on your own property. I just don't see what the fuss is all about with requiring permits, unless you have a reason to think you wouldn't otherwise qualify. To also respond to Brass Magnet, there is nothing in the OklahomaStatutes that require you to have a permit to BUY a gun, provided you are not otherwise disqualified to do so.

    now, it's not only felons that do not qualify for conceal carry permits in Oklahoma, it also includes anyone under the age of 21; persons who are not United States citizens; anyone who has been adjudicated as incompetent; anyone undergoing treatment for mental illness, or having attempted suicide within the last 10 yrs; anyone convicted of the following misdemeanors: assault and battery, stalking, violation of protection order, any conviction relating to drug use or possession of drugs or domestic abuse. How do you propose to stop people falling into those groups from openly carrying? Is it right for the public to demand that those persons not be allowed to carry openly?

    You guys are not looking at the big picture here, relish the small victories first, then push for the bigger ones. Push to get the open carry with a permit first (if necessary), then push to remove the permit. I was absolutely shocked 15 yrs ago when this state allowed us to start carrying a concealed weapon in public (as long as they knew who you were via permits), now we're allowed to carry them into state parks. Hopefully, God willing, we'll soonbe allowed to carry openly. With or without a permit will be up to the lawmakers. I, for one, will be happyto jump through whatever hoops the state requires in order to legally carry my weapon in public, whether that be openly or concealed.
    Look at all the other states that allow open carry without a permit. Do you hear of open carriers shooting people? Here in Arizona, thousands of people open carry. Never have I heard of even one person (muchless a number that would be statistically meaningful) accidentally shooting someone else. Doesn't that tell you something? Do you really think citizens of Oklahoma are less trustworthy or less intelligent than citizens of Arizona?

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    Brass Magnet wrote:
    sml wrote:
    It's always been my understanding that if you don't like the way a lawmaker is doing his job, elect someone else next time. I don't trust politicians any further than I can throw them, I mentioned elected officials only because I do not expect this to be something that goes to a state-wide election, it will either pass or fail with our lawmakers. I, for one, hope that it does pass. Should it pass and if it contains the requirement that I receive a permit before I can carry openly, I am confident that I would qualify for same.

    But what about those who don't qualify for the permit? Someone who smoked pot once 10 years ago or something? Do we have the right to tell them they can't protect their life and the life of their loved ones?

    Yes, the requirements Oklahoma imposes on individuals seeking permits need to be loosened, I'm not denying that. Felon laws in general need to be changed.As I said previously, if my daughter ever has any reason to be questioned by police while she is in my companyor that of my husband and we have our weapon with us, she'll go to jail for violation of her probation. As her probation officer puts it, theoretically she could "overpower me and take control of my gun"-- I'd like to see her try to overpower her daddy....LOL

    As far as elected officails; most of us at OCDO are quite politically active, trying to get the laws changed. If that doesn't work, we go through the courts.


    And BRAVO to you and groups like yours. Without you guys we'd never be allowed to carry guns in the first place. I would become involved locally if I didn't already have my hands full with an unemployed husband, an adult daughter who was forced to move back home with her 3yr old and another baby due next month.
    now, it's not only felons that do not qualify for conceal carry permits in Oklahoma, it also includes anyone under the age of 21; persons who are not United States citizens; anyone who has been adjudicated as incompetent; anyone undergoing treatment for mental illness, or having attempted suicide within the last 10 yrs; anyone convicted of the following misdemeanors: assault and battery, stalking, violation of protection order, any conviction relating to drug use or possession of drugs or domestic abuse. How do you propose to stop people falling into those groups from openly carrying? Is it right for the public to demand that those persons not be allowed to carry openly?

    This information was taken, not necessarily verbatim, from the SDA Handbook, http://www.ok.gov/osbi/documents/SDA_Lawbook_NOV_2009.pdfand no, I don't agree with all of it, but I also don't see the harm in some of it.

    Why should someone have to wait for 21 to defend themselves? Why not 18? Yes, you ought to be able to protect yourself and your loved ones at the age of 18, if you can fight and die for this country at 18, you damn sure ought to be able to drink a beer in a bar or legally own and carry a firearm.

    Why should the right be limited to U.S. citizens? Why shouldn't that right be limited to US citizens? If you are not of this country but are here legally, then yes, by all means, enjoy the rights and privileges of Americans, but if you're here illegally, then you are a criminal, plain and simple.

    Who says who's incompetent? What qualifies as a mental illness? Both these questions would be up to a court to decide, obviously it would include people under guardianships since they have already been declared incompetent, but mental illness.

    What are the circumstances to the rest of the scenarios you wrote?
    The other scenarios should at least have time limits on it. If you haven't been in trouble for XX number of years, then your rights to carry a firearm are restored. Another scenario that I didn't outline above is anyone with a VPO against them are prohibited from lawfully carryinga concealed weapon, so long as the VPO is in effect. When that VPO expires, your rights to lawfully carry concealed are restored.

    You've outlined perfectly whats wrong with the permit system. We shouldn't have to ask the states permission. If people get their gun rights disabled through specific due process, no problem, but if there is prior restraint, big problem.

    I never said the system was perfect, it has huge gaping flaws in it and I'm not smart enough to have an answer to each and every scenario. I'm simply stating my opinion as a law abiding citizen, taxpayer, wife, mother and grandmother, looking only to keep her family safe to the extent that I am able and I just don't see how I can do that if everybody with mental instability issues orwithviolent criminal histories are able to openly carry a firearm wherever they choose.
    You guys are not looking at the big picture here, relish the small victories first, then push for the bigger ones. Push to get the open carry with a permit first (if necessary), then push to remove the permit. I was absolutely shocked 15 yrs ago when this state allowed us to start carrying a concealed weapon in public (as long as they knew who you were via permits), now we're allowed to carry them into state parks. Hopefully, God willing, we'll soonbe allowed to carry openly. With or without a permit will be up to the lawmakers. I, for one, will be happyto jump through whatever hoops the state requires in order to legally carry my weapon in public, whether that be openly or concealed.

    Would you allow your nail clippings to be put on file along with your fingerprints and full background? Any person convicted of a felony in Oklahoma (I don't know about other states in the US) is required to have their DNA on file. If the State wants my DNA, they only have to go as far as my doctor's office. The State and the Feds already have my finger prints, first time was for my conceal carry permit, along with a background search, second time was when my husband adopted my daughter, he had to submit to fingerprinting again along with two separate extensive background searches, and the last time I renewed my driver's license, I had to give my thumb print, which is now on the back of my license. Any informationthe government wants to know about you, they already know......it's really scarey how much information the US Attorney's office and the federal probation office put in a pre-sentence investigation report---my office does some federal criminal defense work

    Would you tell them the serial number of every single firearm you own? I thought they already had that through the gun store where you purchased the weapon, and after all the hell and sand I had to go through to get the serial number of the 40 cal Baretta that was stolen out of my car last year, all the serial numbers of the guns we own are posted on the inside of my gun safe, my palm pilot, and my computer.

    Would you describe your past relationships to them? Would you allow them to implant an IF transmitter? Just how far would you go to beg the state to grant you that privilege? This is where you get into the realm of violation of civil rights. There are enough civil rights groups out there that this theory wouldn't even get a foothold. I know many people have a bad opinion of the ACLU, but they would be leading the movement against it.
    We are looking at the big picture. Some of us disagree about how to get there in the end but we all want freedom to one extent or another. It has in fact worked in some places to start with stricter laws and get them slowly less strict. But changing the laws takes years, years that some people pay for with their lives. So others believe it's better to try to get it all ASAP.

    The big picture as I see it, is to allow all the LAC (Law abiding citizens) to defend themselves without having to jump through hoops. The hoops that we don't have to jump through with our other rights.

    I agree with you, butyou have contridicted youself right here. Allowing all LACs to defend themselves withoutjumping through hoops isperfect, wonderful, would be utopia if it worked, but who is a LAC?Someone without any black marks on their record? Or can some black marks exist, just not SOME black marks? Who gets to decide which black marks can exist and still be considered LAC? This is exactly why I think some controls need to be in place.

  22. #22
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    Notso wrote:
    Look at all the other states that allow open carry without a permit. Do you hear of open carriers shooting people? Here in Arizona, thousands of people open carry. Never have I heard of even one person (muchless a number that would be statistically meaningful) accidentally shooting someone else. Doesn't that tell you something? Do you really think citizens of Oklahoma are less trustworthy or less intelligent than citizens of Arizona?
    No, actually, I haven't heard of any news stories, but then, you don't hear of our nightly shootings/robberies either. Unless an F-5 tornado cuts a mile and a half wide swath through the middle of a residential neighborhood, there is very little news coming out of Oklahoma that is worthy of national attention.

    I'm not able to do much out of state traveling. The last time I drove through AZ was 2004 and I believe you had open carry back then. Any of the times we stopped to get gas or at a restaurant, I never noticed anyone openly carrying a weapon. Frankly, the fact that your state had open carry never occured to me.

    And don't get me started on the intelligence (or lack thereof) of some Okies I know......LOL Let's just say, if breathing wasn't reflex, some of the people I deal with would be in trouble. But all kidding aside, I'm not suggesting the majority of those choosing to openly carry would be a problem. I'm concerned about that 1% or so that think they're Mr. Billy Bad-ass because they can walk down main street with a pair of six-shooters slung on his hips. You know, the kind of person that has no business breeding, much less handling a firearm. I know within reason that alot of the fears and concerns I have about not having any checks and balances for open carry come directly from my job. I have too much contact with thugs and criminals.

    If it works for AZ and NM and any other open carry state, hopefully it will work for OK

  23. #23
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    Open carry has been legal in Arizona since it's inception, 1915 I believe - it's very clear in the state constitution.

    We have our nightly shootings and crime here also, lots of gang activity. But I can guarantee you if any of it had to do with normal law abiding citizens open carrying, we have plenty of anti-gun organizations that would make a big deal out of it and you would hear of it, especially considering the recent Starbucks/Brach bunch activity.



  24. #24
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    Below is a link to the Travelers guide to firearms of the 50 states. If you have never seen it or had one its a must have.I have gotten one every year for the last 4 years. It tells you nearly everything you need to know about traveling through the states with your firearm. I have made coast to coast and border to border trips many times and its been helpful. You would be amazed at how laxed some states are to travelers compared to Oklahoma laws.

    http://www.gunlawguide.com/


    AD1(AW) USN (ACT) 12/07/1997-10/02/2011
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  25. #25
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    If we do get the OC ..i think that there should be some sort of training needed....you should need a ccw to open carry..or else everyone who is not trained would carry... I am not against OC but...I know some people who shouldn't......

    SEMPER FI...

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