OC on college campus?

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Anyone who is interested in help to get cc allowed on campus should come out to the meeting at oakland U on 3/2/10 at 2pm. Even if you do not attend this school it's just the first step.

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What are the rules about firearms on campus? I might want to attend.

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Venator wrote:

There is legislation being written as we write. The bill would include college/universities as local municipalities and place them under preemption. But it's not law yet.

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That would be nice to have exactly no arguable confusion, but I don't understand how preemption doesn't already apply in the minds of some folks. Tax money goes towards most colleges, and police patrol them. Some have legislative powers. If they aren't local units of government, neither are the East Lansing police, or the Berkley City Council.


T Vance wrote:

I'm in the same boat as you. It sucks, but unless you want to risk getting your firearm stolen, or being expelled from school that is the way we have to go.

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One thing I tend to do when going into a CEZ I can't OC at, is I take the slide off, lock the frame to a secure spot in my vehicle, and take the slide and magazines in with me.

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I have a trigger lock and a safety system on my gun that renders the firearm useless when engaged, I also have a padlock for the case when I have to lock it up for work.

I feel that all of the measures are adequate for securing my sidearm when I have to leave it in the car.

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Just a few points on community colleges. Community College derive their authority from state legislation which passes it down to the Boards of Trustees of said colleges. These boards are empowered with the authority to make rules and regulations concerning the use of their facilities. While these rules in the form of codes of conduct for students can be enforced upon students, it can't be enforced on non-students. What this means obviously, is that visitors to the campus can CC carry and presumably OC, students, faculty and staff cannot. And by the way, by enrolling at a particular college/university you agree to abide by their rules. That is called implied consent.

For those working on CC on college campuses who may attend that meeting at OU in March consider these points.

Most people, including administrators, parents and legislators consider "college students" to be the traditional 18-21 year olds who to a university and live in the dorms. Nearly all legislation is based on this false assumption. The idea that "college students" as defined above are or will be allowed to carry guns is shockingly abhorant to them. To them it means kids carrying gun with not consideration of who actually goes to college or university.

The assumption of what a college student is, is false because of the following.

1. Traditional "college students" only make up about 10% of college students.

2. There are about 500K college students in this state and about half or slightly more go to community colleges (i.e. no on campus housing)

3. The average community college student is around 27 years old. I suspect that is close to the average age of most university students as well.

4. Only a small percentage of college students who live on campus are over 21 and would be elligible for a CPL. Of those more than half are likely women who are less likely to apply anyway. However, also point out that violence against women is on the rise and sexual assault on college campuses is at epidemic porportions. Women need the means to protect themselves.

My point is to do your homework. College administrators are likely to fall back on emotional arguments "we don't want drunken college kids carrying guns" . You can win those arguments by using the facts. Pin those people down on exactly how many students live on campus. How many are under or over 21. (actually you should know that ahead of time in case they don''t know or lie to you) Point out that most "college students" are not "drunken college kids" but responsible older adults with families and jobs who simply want to be able to protect themselves on campus the same as they do off campus. They don't want to have to give up their civil rights simply because they choose to get an education. Ask those campus police administrators if they can gurantee your safety on their campus, and if they are willing to be held accountable if something happens to you. They can't and they won't.

When they say that the increase of guns on campus will increase the likelyhood of an armed confrontation, point out that those same arguments were used in every state that tried to pass concealed weapons laws. The fact isthose thingsnever happened. There was not blood running in the streets.

Do your homework, gather information. If you are going to school you should know how to do research by now. Do google searches for the percentages of college students who go to university and/or community colleges and the demographics of students. Oh, and don't quote me, those numbers I gave above are not completely accurate, they are educated guesses.

Check the Chronicle of Higher Education for demographics. Check campus websites for local statistics. Contact http://www.securityoncampus.org for info on college crime and violence against women. They are really liberal but are a good watchdog on college crime. If they think you are after a particular college they will bend over backward to help you. Just don't tell them the reason you want that info. Might also want to google search for campus violence or violence against women on campus.

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http://www.gazette.com/opinion/state-94668-gun-ban.html

OUR VIEW: Sheriff says he'll undermine gun ban.

Anti-gun theorists impose dangerous policy February 23, 2010 6:10 PM The Colorado State University Board of Governors voted unanimously Tuesday to place students at both of its campuses in harm’s way with a sweeping weapons ban law-abiding citizens will obey and criminals will ignore.


Larimer County Sheriff James Alderden, outraged by the ban, told The Gazette’s opinion department he will undermine it in the interest of student safety.
CSU-Fort Collins Police Chief Wendy Rich-Goldsmith, a relative newcomer to the campus, supports the ban.

“I have told the CSU police chief I will not support this in any way,” Sheriff Alderden told The Gazette. “If anyone with one of my permits gets arrested for concealed carry at CSU, I will refuse to book that person into my jail. Furthermore, I will show up at court and testify on that person’s behalf, and I will do whatever I can to discourage a conviction. I will not be a party to this very poor decision.”

Though each CSU campus has its own police department, Alderden issues all cops on the Fort Collins campus a deputy sheriff’s commission card. He also runs the county’s jail, which campus police use after making arrests.

Alderden said ban advocates have been unable to cite a single study or statistic to show that students will be safer as a result of a weapons ban. He’s convinced they will be much less safe as a result of the ban, which will leave most students defenseless. The ban establishes the campuses as “soft targets,” meaning armed criminals will have a reasonable expectation their intended victims aren’t armed.
“There are volumes of statistical and anecdotal data that show populations are safer when law-abiding citizens are permitted to carry concealed weapons,” Alderden said.
Six years after Alderden began issuing permits, he noticed the homicide rate in his jurisdiction had dropped.

At CSU-Fort Collins, the ban includes pepper spray, in quantities greater than an ounce, and Tasers. “This ban, which is broad and encompassing, basically denies students at the Fort Collins campus any defensive capacity at all,” Alderden said. “It’s a weapons-free zone for law-abiding people, and it won’t do a single thing to keep armed criminals off of campus. It will only ensure them a lot of defenseless victims. The people who did this are lost in their own world of ideological liberalism. You would think people involved in academia would want to deal in data and experience, but this has been all about emotion.”

Alderden said he realized the sentiment against self-defense is based in emotion after speaking with a public school teacher who asked him to stop issuing concealment permits. He showed her data that prove concealed carry reduces crime. He told her concealed carry would help reduce violent crime in Fort Collins and the rest of Larimer County — a sentiment shared by El Paso County Sheriff Terry Maketa and a growing number of ranking law enforcement officials regarding their own jurisdictions.

“I made the whole case, based in provable facts. The teacher said, and I quote, ‘I don’t care about the facts.’ She only cared about her emotional response,” Alderden said.(Please vote in poll to the right, in red type. Must vote to see results. Thanks!) The student Senate of the Fort Collins campus opposed the ban by a 23-1 vote. That means CSU governors, and administrators who pushed for the ban, don’t seem to care what their customers think. The Student Senate at Pueblo approved the ban, only after administrators said “weapons” did not include Tasers or pepper spray.
“God forbid we have something like the tragedy at Virginia Tech at one of these campuses,” Alderden said, referring to a notorious shooting spree in which a lunatic wantonly killed for hours, while a gun ban ensured him no students or faculty would shoot back.

Alderden questions the legality of the ban, saying the legislature never discussed excluding college campuses when it passed a shall-issue concealed-carry law in 2003. The law requires county sheriff's to issue concealment permits to law-abiding residents without felonies, misdemeanor domestic violence records, or other other disqualifying conditions. Furthermore, he said students who ignore the ban won’t have legal problems if they don’t get caught.

“If it’s properly concealed, so that nobody sees the weapon, it probably won’t be a problem,” Alderden said. In the event a concealed weapon is needed for defense of self or others, it would become evident to law enforcement. In that unlikely event, Alderden said, safety trumps legal concerns.

“They say it’s better to be judged by 12 than carried by six,” Alderden said.
That’s the advice of a lawman with a record of reducing crime. The ban is the work of academic ideologues, who theorize about safety and crime. Hope and pray the academicians don’t find themselves begging forgiveness someday, in the wake of a horrible crime. — [size=[b]Wayne Laugesen[/b], editorial page editor, for the editorial board]

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zpatagus wrote:

Just a few points on community colleges. Community College derive their authority from state legislation which passes it down to the Boards of Trustees of said colleges. These boards are empowered with the authority to make rules and regulations concerning the use of their facilities. While these rules in the form of codes of conduct for students can be enforced upon students, it can't be enforced on non-students. What this means obviously, is that visitors to the campus can CC carry and presumably OC, students, faculty and staff cannot. And by the way, by enrolling at a particular college/university you agree to abide by their rules. That is called implied consent.

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Implied consent sounds nice and all, but it doesn't work that way, if I understand this right.

No where, have I ever heard of a law that lists colleges as an exemption to MCL 123.1102, AKA gun preemption. Nor have I ever heard of some magic, cover all rule that would lead me to believe that colleges are above laws when they choose to be.

1102 states the following:

123.1102 Regulation of pistols or other firearms.

Sec. 2. A local unit of government shall not impose special taxation on, enact or enforce any ordinance or regulation pertaining to, or regulate in any other manner the ownership, registration, purchase, sale, transfer, transportation, or possession of pistols or other firearms, ammunition for pistols or other firearms, or components of pistols or other firearms, except as otherwise provided by federal law or a law of this state.

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I doubt there will be any dispute over the terms "shall not impose". Nor do I think it's very arguable that colleges are local units of government if they derive the powers they have locally on their campuses directly from state legislation.

Calling it implied consent, to me, passes blame at the students, when in fact imposing anti gun rules contradicts state law from the very beginning.

Just so it's clear, I am not trying to be argumentative, nor am I trying to be mean. No disrespect intended. I am just calling the facts as I see them, but I'm no lawyer. If I am wrong about this, please articulate the specifics, because a lot of people seem to think it's a gray area, or even that colleges are completely in the right, and I just can't see it that way when I look at what appear to be the facts.

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I've been going over the law repeatedly, trying to figure out some small way a loophole could possibly exist for colleges to infringe on the state constitution, and be immune to preemption. The closest thing I can find is in MCL 123.1101, the definitions section of preemption.


123.1101 Definitions.
Sec. 1.
As used in this act:
(a) “Local unit of government” means a city, village, township, or county.
(b) “Pistol” means that term as defined in section 222 of the Michigan penal code, Act No. 328 of the Public Acts of 1931, being section 750.222 of the Michigan Compiled Laws.


If you take a community college, like Macomb or Oakland Counties community colleges, it is pretty darn clearly a county government entity, at least that's what the name implies.Seems the same way for Oakland University, where Generaldet wants to go speak to their council.



I'm not legally savvy enough to know if state run colleges would be exempt from preemption because they don't fall in the definitions. I have heard the idea tossed around that WSU, MSU, and U of M can't possibly defy state law, because they are mentioned in the Michigan constitution, but I can't cite any proof of that. This is the one thing that doesn't seem so clear.

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Community colleges are not affiliated with county government or any other governmentalentity except the state. They are a state created entity which are separately run. They gain their creation and authority through state law i.e., the community college act. Same with public universities.In that boards of trusteesgain their authority directy from the state, one could argue thatthey don't fall under the preemption clause.

My point about implied consent is that if you apply to a college/university and are accepted you know that there are rules of conduct/behavior/academic progress etc.By signing up to go to schoolyou have already agreed to abide by their rules. Your consent to comply is implied by you showing up to attend. You may not like them but then again you have a choice to go somewhere else if you chose not to follow them.


Also the article about colorado sheriffs being against a weapons ban is interesting. If, as state the campus police gain their authority from the sheriff, then the sheriff can simply withdraw his deputizing them. This happened in Michigan to a university once. The Sheriff simply did not want the liability of deputizing campus police departments. This forced colleges and universities to go get state law passed to give them their own.

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FWIW, I'm not a student, but have CC's on WSU's campus, including one of the admin buildings.