GFSZ distance measurement inaccurate

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so i have to ask this. i see that you guys have the milwaukee GFSZ map and bunch of other talk. but i've been trying to figure out the deal with my house.

as i mentioned in another thread, i can't seem to get a direct answer.

some answers say i'm NOT in the GFSZ. some answers say that my front door is in a GFSZ, but my garage exit door is not, so i could carry out of my garage. some answers say that my entire property is in a GFSZ. and now i just got another answer that went 2 STREETS PAST my property.


how is one supposed to know where the GFSZ really is if nobody can seem to agree on an actual answer???

even the local cops that i asked couldn't answer that question and said they would try and look it up and see if they could find out where it is specified and how.



because think about it..........how could they enforce a law that is so vague that NOBODY can agree on where it is???





sooo....................how should i handle this situation. according to some i can leave my house and go for a walk. according to some i have to exit through my garage and go for a walk. and according to others i'm screwed.


i have even tried measuring myself, and have come up with multiple different answers myself. so i don't know anymore.

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Have you tried using the measuring tool in Google Earth? I haven't tried using in on a previously known distance, but from what I've messed around with, it seems pretty accurate.

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As a zoning administrator-wannabe I make legal judgments of distances using the county provided property tax plat maps - http://map.co.door.wi.us/ - and its 'measure' function. I'm sure your county has a similar capability.

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Master Doug Huffman wrote:

As a zoning administrator-wannabe I make legal judgments of distances using the county provided property tax plat maps - http://map.co.door.wi.us/ - and its 'measure' function.  I'm sure your county  has a similar capability.

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i have no idea what you are talking about, or what i'm looking at in that link.

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Yooper wrote:

Have you tried using the measuring tool in Google Earth? I haven't tried using in on a previously known distance, but from what I've messed around with, it seems pretty accurate.

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yes i have used google earth, and even with that i can come up with different measurements. something is really wrong with this law, and i think it's the simple fact that there is no "measurement point". you ask 3 different people, and they're going to measure from 3 different locations, and therefore get 3 different answers.


and the fact that the police don't even know where the school zones are really says something about it.

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If it was easy then everyone could do it.

The tax man knows.

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Scorpio_vette:

There is no precise answer to your question. First: a person must know the actual property line of the school grounds. Just the confusion around whether the property line ends at the sidewalk or the middle of the adjacent streets can make a difference of about 33 feet. The only way anyone would know with certainty exactly where the 1000 foot limit is, is to know the exact legal discription of the school property and then have a surveyor determine the exact 1000 foot boundary along all points of the property. Anything else is just speculation. Probably the only defense a person in your situation would have is that because the 1000 foot boundary is not marked and is so vaguehe/she entered the zone unknowingly. That vagueness is one reasonthe GFSZ law has to go. Compounding the problem is, many school properties are not precise geometric shapes but have irregular property lines. In certain circumstances a person could be outside the 1000 foot zone and a few feet later unknowingly be inside it. These comments are my opinion

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Lammie:

The platted property is exactly what is shown on the various counties tax maps, legal documents that are required to be publicly accessible because that is what your property tax is calculated from.

What county are you in and locate a school and maybe I can show an example.

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Master Doug Huffman wrote:

What county are you in and locate a school and maybe I can show an example.

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here is the specific school that i'm concerned with. i'd be interested to see what you come up with and how it relates to my house, and add any info as you go.

4950 S Lake Dr
Cudahy, WI 53110

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http://www.county.milwaukee.gov/LandInformationProgr23113/LIOInteractiveMapping.htm

Windoze IE specific

Found S. Lake, Cudahy

Found 4950 at the intersection of Oak Leaf Train and E Pulaski

Found the 'buffer' mark-up and the polygon geometry.

Sorry, now I must dress for dinner. Later

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scorpio_vette wrote:

so i have to ask this. i see that you guys have the milwaukee GFSZ map and bunch of other talk. but i've been trying to figure out the deal with my house.

as i mentioned in another thread, i can't seem to get a direct answer.

some answers say i'm NOT in the GFSZ. some answers say that my front door is in a GFSZ, but my garage exit door is not, so i could carry out of my garage. some answers say that my entire property is in a GFSZ. and now i just got another answer that went 2 STREETS PAST my property.


how is one supposed to know where the GFSZ really is if nobody can seem to agree on an actual answer???

even the local cops that i asked couldn't answer that question and said they would try and look it up and see if they could find out where it is specified and how.



because think about it..........how could they enforce a law that is so vague that NOBODY can agree on where it is???





sooo....................how should i handle this situation. according to some i can leave my house and go for a walk. according to some i have to exit through my garage and go for a walk. and according to others i'm screwed.


i have even tried measuring myself, and have come up with multiple different answers myself. so i don't know anymore.

Click to expand...

if you lived across the street from a school zone, you can still OC on your property. Driveway, front lawn...but no sidewalk.

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Glock34 wrote:

if you lived across the street from a school zone, you can still OC on your property. Driveway, front lawn...but no sidewalk.

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i'm fully aware of that, but it doesn't do me any good if i can't leave my house. if i want to take my dog for a walk, or if i'm having another sleepless night because of nightmares and decide i'd like to go for a smoke at 2am and walk to the gas station to get me a mountain dew, then it doesn't do me any good if i can't carry. and that's what has promted this whole thing. because according to some my sidewalk is in a school zone and others say it's not. others say that my front property is in a school zone, but my rear property is not. which would be fine. because then i would simply exit out of the rear and walk a slight detour to circle around the school zone.

but the problem is...........if everybody i ask comes up with conflicting info, and even the cops haven't come up with an answer yet, then how exactly am i supposed to know if i can walk to the gas station or not???

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scorpio_vette wrote:

Glock34 wrote:

if you lived across the street from a school zone, you can still OC on your property. Driveway, front lawn...but no sidewalk.

Click to expand...

i'm fully aware of that, but it doesn't do me any good if i can't leave my house. if i want to take my dog for a walk, or if i'm having another sleepless night because of nightmares and decide i'd like to go for a smoke at 2am and walk to the gas station to get me a mountain dew, then it doesn't do me any good if i can't carry. and that's what has promted this whole thing. because according to some my sidewalk is in a school zone and others say it's not. others say that my front property is in a school zone, but my rear property is not. which would be fine. because then i would simply exit out of the rear and walk a slight detour to circle around the school zone.

but the problem is...........if everybody i ask comes up with conflicting info, and even the cops haven't come up with an answer yet, then how exactly am i supposed to know if i can walk to the gas station or not???

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i see your problem.

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Why not try measuring the distance from your property to the nearest point of the school property with a GPS? If it is so close that being inside or outside of the school zone is within the unit's margin of error, then to be safe, encase your firearm until you are sure you're outside of the zone, then load and make ready.

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Shotgun wrote:

Why not try measuring the distance from your property to the nearest point of the school property with a GPS?  If it is so close that being inside or outside of the school zone is within the unit's margin of error, then to be safe, encase your firearm until you are sure you're outside of the zone, then load and make ready.

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so what you're saying is that i should walk down the road with a gun case in my hand and then when i get a little further down the road, i should take it out of the case, load it and holster it???

wouldn't i at that point be opening myself up to concealed weapons charge since i have a firearm (assuming i'm out of the school zone by now) concealed instead of openly in my holster???






i do have to ask what your guys opinion on this one specific question. if the perimeter question is so hard to answer that nobody can come up with an exact answer, and even the cops don't know and can't figure out the exact answer, then how in the world can they enforce it???

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Wouldn't it be nice, and so much easier to make the rule "just on school property" as opposed to 1000 ft. from some random and arbitatry point on the school grounds?. Or is it just to make things difficult for us, the law abiding citizenery?

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The question of where to measure from is in the Wisconsin Statutes:

From Wisconsin Statute 948.605:

This is the definition of the GFSZ
(c) “School zone” means any of the following:
1. In or on the grounds of a school.
2. Within 1,000 feet from the grounds of a school.

This is the dictionary definition of "Grounds":

1. The collective land areas that compose a larger area, as in the school grounds.
2. "Collective land areas" means ALL the lands that make up the school property, including athletic fields.

So, to find the GFSZ, you measure out 1000 feet from any school property.

The real problem, as some have stated, is locating the school property line accurately. I believe that Doug has the best answer as he will be using the LEGAL location of the line, with software made to measure distances.

The whole exercise is still a pain in the A$$ for law-abiding citizens such as yourself. We are turned into potential law breakers and the children may be exposed to armed criminals with no means of defense.

Dave

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Deek wrote:

Wouldn't it be nice, and so much easier to make the rule "just on school property" as opposed to 1000 ft. from some random and arbitatry point on the school grounds?. Or is it just to make things difficult for us, the law abiding citizenery?

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why have a law about it at all??? sure it would be an improvement for us, but it still wouldn't prevent school shooting. the only way to prevent school shootings, or minimize the damage done by school shootings is to have the staff armed so they can defend themselves.


and if i'm allowed to carry legal in public, then i should also be able to go pick up my child from school without having to jump through hoops. i mean nobody stops my car 1,000feet from the school and checks it for bombs, or makes me walk through a metal detector and pats me down. nobody gives me a sobriety test and drug test before going to pick up my child from school.

but that's not really the topic in discussion here.

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Write to your elected representative (State Representative, State Delegate, whatever he/she/it is called). They made the law. Ask them to explain it to you.

Heck, every Wisconsin member ought to write to his/her elected representative. State what the law says. Give your residence address. Ask if you reside in or near a Gun Free School Zone.

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scorpio_vette wrote:

wouldn't i at that point be opening myself up to concealed weapons charge since i have a firearm (assuming i'm out of the school zone by now) concealed instead of openly in my holster???

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If people want to believe that carrying a gun in a bona fide gun case is illegally concealing a weapon, fine. Then every time you walk out of the gun store with your new in-box gun in hand, you're committing a crime.

That's baloney in my opinion. If it were true you'd have the police sitting outside every gun store waiting to press easy charges against customers as they emerge.

A encased gun is not a concealed weapon. If it is concealed, it's concealed legally. As we know from Hamdan, the court recognizes that there ARE times when we might have to conceal a weapon for various practical purposes.

If you think carrying your encased firearm through a school zone is illegal under the concealed carry law, then write to your legislator and accuse him or her of entrapment!

There's plenty wrong with the school zone law. However I don't think that one of the things wrong with it is that it forces you to break another law if you comply with it.

As far as measuring the distance from school to house, yes by all means check the official plat book for the school grounds. It would really suck if you're so close to the edge of the school zone that it takes a surveying crew to figure out. Under the law you have to have knowledge or reason to believe you're in a school zone to be convicted of a violation. I don't think you're required to take extraordinary measures.