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Thread: You CANNOT OC in IN with a MI CPL

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    My e-mail to the Indiana State Police:

    Your Name: Aaron *********

    Your Email: *********@gmail.com

    Subject: CPL Reciprocation

    To Whom It May Concern:

    IC 35-47-2-21 states: "[...]
    (b) Licenses to carry handguns, issued by other states or foreign countries, will be recognized according to the terms thereof but only while the holders are not residents of Indiana. [...]"

    Can you clarify what is meant by the phrase "according to the terms thereof"?

    Specifically, I am a Michigan CPL holder inquiring as to the rights I am provided when carrying in Indiana.

    * Can I open carry with a Michigan CPL?
    * Am I restricted by Indiana AND Michigan pistol free zones, or just Indiana?

    Please elaborate on these topics.

    Best regards,
    Aaron *********
    ISP Response:
    You are held to the restrictions of your license in your home state. Example: if you are issued a concealed carry permit in your home state, then the weapon must be concealed in Indiana. If you cannot carry on your person in the vehicle in your home state, then you cannot do so in Indiana.

    Indiana does not regulate in establishments selling alcohol. If the law in your state is related to the terms under which you were issued your license, then you cannot do so in Indiana either. If you want to know that, then you need to contact your licensing authorities, not us.

    Lt. Jerry A. Berkey
    Indiana State Police
    Records Division, Rm 302 100 N. Senate Avenue--IGCN
    Indianapolis, IN 46204
    317-232-8263 MW2498
    This spells it out pretty clearly to me. You are basically restricted to the laws of BOTH states while in Indiana, with the added rule that a CPL only allows you to carry concealed in Indiana, not OC. You would have to get an Indiana License To Carry a Handgun (LTCH). Thoughts?

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    The CPL allows you to carry openly as well in MI, and in more places than without a CPL.

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    Regular Member eastmeyers's Avatar
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    Sounds like an Anti. I've never herd of being held to the law of state A while in state B. What would they charge you with, lol. Anyways how about you email the Attorney General of IN.
    "Bam, I like saying bam when I cite something, in fact I think I shall do this from here on out, as long as I remember.
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    zigziggityzoo wrote:
    The CPL allows you to carry openly as well in MI, and in more places than without a CPL.
    Michigan Law in general allows you to open carry, and restricts the concealed carry, of a firearm. The CPL only allows you to CC.

    eastmeyers wrote:
    Sounds like an Anti. I've never herd of being held to the law of state A while in state B. What would they charge you with, lol.
    You're not. You're being held to Indiana law, which states: "[...] (b) Licenses to carry handguns, issued by other states or foreign countries, will be recognized according to the terms thereof but only while the holders are not residents of Indiana. [...]"

    In this case, State B is legally mandating that you are held to the laws of State A.

    EDIT: I'll send the same/similar letter to the IN AG right now, but I'm more worried about whether or not I'll get arrested, not the subsequent lawsuit. I'd rather avoid the former and thus automatically the latter, instead of the latter alone.

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    Regular Member autosurgeon's Avatar
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    He is wrong. I would defer to the Attorney General in IN.
    Anything I post may be my opinion and not the law... you are responsible to do your own verification.

    Blackstone (1753-1765) maintains that "the law holds that it is better that ten guilty persons escape than that one innocent suffer."

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    horneraa wrote:
    zigziggityzoo wrote:
    The CPL allows you to carry openly as well in MI, and in more places than without a CPL.
    Michigan Law in general allows you to open carry, and restricts the concealed carry, of a firearm. The CPL only allows you to CC.
    Actually, that's incorrect. If you have a CPL, you can OC in places where you can't CC, such as schools, taverns and other Pistol Free Zones, (except Casino's, they're governed by a different law.) Without the CPL, you can't OC on school grounds.
    Big Gay Al
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    horneraa wrote:
    zigziggityzoo wrote:
    The CPL allows you to carry openly as well in MI, and in more places than without a CPL.
    Michigan Law in general allows you to open carry, and restricts the concealed carry, of a firearm. The CPL only allows you to CC.
    The CPL also allows you to carry openly in certain establishments. See MCL 750.234d.

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    Last edited by T Vance; 09-20-2010 at 01:27 PM.

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    Big Gay Al wrote:
    horneraa wrote:
    zigziggityzoo wrote:
    The CPL allows you to carry openly as well in MI, and in more places than without a CPL.
    Michigan Law in general allows you to open carry, and restricts the concealed carry, of a firearm. The CPL only allows you to CC.
    Actually, that's incorrect. If you have a CPL, you can OC in places where you can't CC, such as schools, taverns and such. Without the CPL, you can't OC on school grounds.
    You are correct, but this isn't a right granted by the CPL itself. This derives from MCL 750.234d which provides an exception for MI CPL holders in those Pistol Free Zones. The CPL, in MI law, only allows you the right to carry concealed. They relate to the same topic, but it is wrong to assume that they can be clumped together in this manner.

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    Michigan Moderator Big Gay Al's Avatar
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    Ok, only one thing, concealed carry isn't a right, it's a privilege. It's a right in Vermont and Alaska.

    Big Gay Al
    Coordinator, Michigan Pink Pistols
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    Fabrique Nationale d'Herstal FNX-45 .45ACP 16 rounds of hurt.

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    horneraa wrote:
    zigziggityzoo wrote:
    The CPL allows you to carry openly as well in MI, and in more places than without a CPL.
    Michigan Law in general allows you to open carry, and restricts the concealed carry, of a firearm. The CPL only allows you to CC.

    eastmeyers wrote:
    Sounds like an Anti. I've never herd of being held to the law of state A while in state B. What would they charge you with, lol.
    You're not. You're being held to Indiana law, which states: "[...] (b) Licenses to carry handguns, issued by other states or foreign countries, will be recognized according to the terms thereof but only while the holders are not residents of Indiana. [...]"

    In this case, State B is legally mandating that you are held to the laws of State A.

    EDIT: I'll send the same/similar letter to the IN AG right now, but I'm more worried about whether or not I'll get arrested, not the subsequent lawsuit. I'd rather avoid the former and thus automatically the latter, instead of the latter alone.
    Get the email throm the AGs office saying your legal, keep it in your back pocket. The AG is the #1 LEO in the state, I don't see any LEO arresting you while you have a letter from the AG saying your legal. Well they would be dumb for duing so...

    God luck, God Bless!
    "Bam, I like saying bam when I cite something, in fact I think I shall do this from here on out, as long as I remember.
    Bam!" - eastmeyers

    "Then said he to them, But now he that hath a purse, let him take it, and likewise his sack: and he that hath no sword, let him sell his garment, and buy one."
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    Preliminary response from the Indiana Attorney General:

    from Constituent <CConstituent@atg.in.gov>
    to Aaron ****** <********@gmail.com>
    date Tue, Feb 23, 2010 at 1:51 PM

    subject RE: CPL Reciprocation

    Thank you for your email. The Indiana State Police have all the information you need, but I do know that Indiana honors licenses issued in Michigan. You may call Edith Hendricks with the ISP at 317-232-8245

    [line]
    From: Aaron ******
    Sent: Tuesday, February 23, 2010 1:37 PM
    To: Constituent Subject: CPL Reciprocation

    To Whom It May Concern:

    IC 35-47-2-21 states:
    "[...] (b) Licenses to carry handguns, issued by other states or foreign countries, will be recognized according to the terms thereof but only while the holders are not residents of Indiana. [...]"

    Can you clarify what is meant by the phrase "according to the terms thereof"?

    Specifically, I am a Michigan CPL holder inquiring as to the rights I am provided when carrying in Indiana.

    * Can I open carry with a Michigan CPL?
    * Am I restricted by Indiana AND Michigan pistol free zones, or just Indiana?

    Please elaborate on these topics.

    Best regards,
    Aaron R. Horner
    Don't worry, I'm gonna respond with something a little more assertive to make sure I get an answer out of 'em.




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    Regular Member Bronson's Avatar
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    A friend of mine was going to a convention in IN and was told the same thing...IA honors MI permits and you are bound by MI laws while in IN. I too thought this was odd because the IN police would have to know ALL the carry laws from ALL the states. Doesn't seem workable to me.

    Bronson
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    horneraa wrote:
    My e-mail to the Indiana State Police:

    Your Name: Aaron *********

    Your Email: *********@gmail.com

    Subject: CPL Reciprocation

    To Whom It May Concern:

    IC 35-47-2-21 states: "[...]
    (b) Licenses to carry handguns, issued by other states or foreign countries, will be recognized according to the terms thereof but only while the holders are not residents of Indiana. [...]"

    Can you clarify what is meant by the phrase "according to the terms thereof"?

    Specifically, I am a Michigan CPL holder inquiring as to the rights I am provided when carrying in Indiana.

    * Can I open carry with a Michigan CPL?
    * Am I restricted by Indiana AND Michigan pistol free zones, or just Indiana?

    Please elaborate on these topics.

    Best regards,
    Aaron *********
    ISP Response:
    You are held to the restrictions of your license in your home state. Example: if you are issued a concealed carry permit in your home state, then the weapon must be concealed in Indiana. If you cannot carry on your person in the vehicle in your home state, then you cannot do so in Indiana.

    Indiana does not regulate in establishments selling alcohol. If the law in your state is related to the terms under which you were issued your license, then you cannot do so in Indiana either. If you want to know that, then you need to contact your licensing authorities, not us.

    Lt. Jerry A. Berkey
    Indiana State Police
    Records Division, Rm 302 100 N. Senate Avenue--IGCN
    Indianapolis, IN 46204
    317-232-8263 MW2498
    This spells it out pretty clearly to me. You are basically restricted to the laws of BOTH states while in Indiana, with the added rule that a CPL only allows you to carry concealed in Indiana, not OC. You would have to get an Indiana License To Carry a Handgun (LTCH). Thoughts?
    Previously posted on another thread (Do a "non resident" search) I have an email from the Indiana State Police that you can OC or CC with a Michigan CPL in Indiana. So you are okay. Since Michigan allows both OC and CC with a CPL you are not breaking Michigan law by OCing in Indiana.
    An Amazon best seller "MY PARENTS OPEN CARRY" http://www.myparentsopencarry.com/

    *The information contained above is not meant to be legal advice, but is solely intended as a starting point for further research. These are my opinions, if you have further questions it is advisable to seek out an attorney that is well versed in firearm law.

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    Venator wrote:
    Previously posted on another thread (Do a "non resident" search) I have an email from the Indiana State Police that you can OC or CC with a Michigan CPL in Indiana. So you are okay. Since Michigan allows both OC and CC with a CPL you are not breaking Michigan law by OCing in Indiana.
    That's all well and good, but I have a letter stating that you can only conceal carry with a CPL. Whose letter wins?

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    Last edited by T Vance; 09-20-2010 at 01:26 PM.

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    In order to carry in IN period you must have a Licence to Carry or a recognized licence from another state.
    Anything I post may be my opinion and not the law... you are responsible to do your own verification.

    Blackstone (1753-1765) maintains that "the law holds that it is better that ten guilty persons escape than that one innocent suffer."

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    T Vance wrote:
    But YOUR letter states "You are held to the restrictions of your license in your home state. Example: if you are issued a concealed carry permit in your home state, then the weapon must be concealed in Indiana. If you cannot carry on your person in the vehicle in your home state, then you cannot do so in Indiana".

    Michigan allows CC and OC, so if you agree with the letter you received than you can OC in Indiana with a CPL.

    He sounds like an Anti-OCer. He also thinks (or is making you think) that if you have your CPL then you MUST carry it concealed. That is NOT true for Michigan.

    Also, OCing is legal in Indiana as far as I know.
    The key words present there are "of your license". Not the body of laws relevant to firearms, but those relevant to your license. The exception clause for CPL holders in 750.234d is not a privilege granted by your CPL, but rather an exception of the OC laws for CPL holders. There is a key difference there.

    I'm still waiting on a positive response from the Indiana Attorney General, but I'm confident that you can't OC in Indiana with a MI CPL.

    And yes, OCing in Indiana is perfectly legal for Indiana LTCH holders.

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    horneraa wrote:
    Venator wrote:
    Previously posted on another thread (Do a "non resident" search) I have an email from the Indiana State Police that you can OC or CC with a Michigan CPL in Indiana. So you are okay. Since Michigan allows both OC and CC with a CPL you are not breaking Michigan law by OCing in Indiana.
    That's all well and good, but I have a letter stating that you can only conceal carry with a CPL. Whose letter wins?
    What are you daft. Michigan's permit allows OC so under your interpretation of what some Indiana cops states you can OC in Indiana with a Michigan CPL. Your thread title is wrong, plain and simple.
    An Amazon best seller "MY PARENTS OPEN CARRY" http://www.myparentsopencarry.com/

    *The information contained above is not meant to be legal advice, but is solely intended as a starting point for further research. These are my opinions, if you have further questions it is advisable to seek out an attorney that is well versed in firearm law.

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    horneraa wrote:
    T Vance wrote:
    But YOUR letter states "You are held to the restrictions of your license in your home state. Example: if you are issued a concealed carry permit in your home state, then the weapon must be concealed in Indiana. If you cannot carry on your person in the vehicle in your home state, then you cannot do so in Indiana".

    Michigan allows CC and OC, so if you agree with the letter you received than you can OC in Indiana with a CPL.

    He sounds like an Anti-OCer. He also thinks (or is making you think) that if you have your CPL then you MUST carry it concealed. That is NOT true for Michigan.

    Also, OCing is legal in Indiana as far as I know.
    The key words present there are "of your license". Not the body of laws relevant to firearms, but those relevant to your license. The exception clause for CPL holders in 750.234d is not a privilege granted by your CPL, but rather an exception of the OC laws for CPL holders. There is a key difference there.

    I'm still waiting on a positive response from the Indiana Attorney General, but I'm confident that you can't OC in Indiana with a MI CPL.

    And yes, OCing in Indiana is perfectly legal for Indiana LTCH holders.
    Again your are just plain wrong in your interpretation of the Indiana law. Many Michiganders OC in Indiana with no problem.



    Dear Mr. Jeffs:

    Indiana honors all other states handgun license while visiting or passing through our state. Our law does not state that your weapon has to be concealed or unconcealed. Being concealeddoes not draw attention to you or make people feel uneasy. You may check this web site for more information. http://www.in.gov/isp and go under firearms to see what it has. Also, this web site: http://www.ai.org/legislative/ic/code/title35/ar47/index.html
    If you have any other questions, please let us know.
    Thanks,
    Sandy Stark Indiana State Police Firearms Section Indiana Government Center North 100 N Senate Ave
    Indianapolis, IN 46204 317-232-8264
    An Amazon best seller "MY PARENTS OPEN CARRY" http://www.myparentsopencarry.com/

    *The information contained above is not meant to be legal advice, but is solely intended as a starting point for further research. These are my opinions, if you have further questions it is advisable to seek out an attorney that is well versed in firearm law.

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    PS I OPEN CARRY ALL THE TIME IN INDIANA WITH A MICHIGAN CPL:celebrate:celebrate

    on a motorcycle and on foot and have met several police officers NO PROBLEMS OK !!!!:celebrate:celebrate



    PS you believe us before the police as they don't research the law like we do !!!


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    Last edited by T Vance; 09-20-2010 at 01:26 PM.

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    Venator wrote:
    Again your are just plain wrong in your interpretation of the Indiana law. Many Michiganders OC in Indiana with no problem.



    Dear Mr. Jeffs:

    Indiana honors all other states handgun license while visiting or passing through our state. Our law does not state that your weapon has to be concealed or unconcealed. Being concealeddoes not draw attention to you or make people feel uneasy. You may check this web site for more information. http://www.in.gov/isp and go under firearms to see what it has. Also, this web site: http://www.ai.org/legislative/ic/code/title35/ar47/index.html
    If you have any other questions, please let us know.
    Thanks,
    Sandy Stark Indiana State Police Firearms Section Indiana Government Center North 100 N Senate Ave
    Indianapolis, IN 46204 317-232-8264
    I hope that I am wrong, but my inquiry with the Indiana State Police AND the Attorney General's Office has suggested that I am right. I have, however, pressed for a more detailed response from the AG, shown here:

    My response from Lt. Jerry Berkey in the Records Division of the ISP:

    You are held to the restrictions of your license in your home state. Example: if you are issued a concealed carry permit in your home state, then the weapon must be concealed in Indiana. If you cannot carry on your person in the vehicle in your home state, then you cannot do so in Indiana.

    Indiana does not regulate in establishments selling alcohol. If the law in your state is related to the terms under which you were issued your license, then you cannot do so in Indiana either. If you want to know that, then you need to contact your licensing authorities, not us.
    What I was hoping for was clarification from your office. Is the above correct? Specifically:

    * With a Michigan CPL, I am absolutely required to carry concealed?
    * I am subject to the restrictions of Concealed Carry in Michigan while I am in the State of Indiana?

    The confusion derives from MCL 28.425o and MCL 750.234d which outline pistol free zones. MCL 750.234d states, in part:

    "(2) This section does not apply to any of the following: [...] (2) (c) A person licensed by this state or another state to carry a concealed weapon."

    Thus, it is implied that a CPL holder in Michigan is granted the right to carry openly without the restriction of "Pistol Free Zones", and that a MI CPL, indirectly, gives the right to OC.

    So again, I must ask for clarification: Can a Michigan CPL holder carry openly in Indiana?

    Best regards,
    Aaron R. Horner
    I hope you'll note I am on your side in this e-mail.

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    Horner:

    I understand where you are coming from, but you are missing an important aspect of this statute.

    A non-residentmay not usetheir out-of-state license to carry in such a manner that would berestricted in their own license itself, nor may use that license to carry in such a manner that would be illegal by Indiana statute. However, one must also meet the minimumn standards of Indiana's laws.

    Basically, you can not exceed therestrictions of your license, or Indiana law.

    Since one doesn't need a license to carry openly in Michigan (except in certain PFZs), then by openly carrying in Indiana, you have not exceeded the limits of you license. However, Indiana does have a statutory requirement to be licensed to carry in any form. Your Michigan license meets that requirement.

    What you can not do is exceed Indiana law or any restrictions on your license. For example, if your Michigan CPL had a requirement for corrective lenses (don't know if this exists or not, just an example), you would have to wear corrective lenses while carrying in Indiana, since this is a condition of your license.

    Also, you can not carry on school property while in Indiana, as this is a restriction of Indiana law.

    What you don't have to worry about are restrictions of Michigan law, unless those restrictions are contained in the CPL statutes. Example: You can carry concealed in a bank or a bar in Indiana. While these are restrictions of Michigan law, they are not restricitions ofthe CPL statuteitself.

    Hope this clears things up.

    Just remember. You can OC in Indiana on a MI CPL, as long as you follow any restrictions of your CPL itself and follow Indiana Law.

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    What restrictions are on your CPL?
    I can't find any on mine.
    Where are these restrictions you speak of?

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