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Thread: Larimer County, CO Sheriff James Alderden declares war on CSU gun ban - hit poll!

  1. #1
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    The Sheriff is just noting the relaity that violating a college gun ban is not a crime in Colorado or most states - hence, no lawul arrest or gun seiziure can be executed by campus authorioties against students, staff, for mere lawful gun carry.

    http://www.gazette.com/opinion/state-94668-gun-ban.html

    SNIP

    “I have told the CSU police chief I will not support this in any way,” Sheriff Alderden told The Gazette. “If anyone with one of my permits gets arrested for concealed carry at CSU, I will refuse to book that person into my jail. Furthermore, I will show up at court and testify on that person’s behalf, and I will do whatever I can to discourage a conviction. I will not be a party to this very poor decision.”

    --

    And vote in this poll:




    College gun ban

    Should Colorado State students ignore the new weapons ban, as one sheriff suggests?

    Yes, they should ignore the ban

    No, they should obey the campus rules

    I don't know

    I don't care

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    Yes, they should ignore the gun ban and by the dozens, hopefully hundrends. Then let's see how the administration reacts when they are faced with layoffs due to the suspension of so many students.

    My state allows carry on college campus'. However, the college threatens students with suspension if they do. My adult children carry concealed on campus anyway.

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    Interesting indeed, and I think if the local sheriff says the law is invalid, then there are is a definable defense.



    Mike wrote:
    The Sheriff is just noting the relaity that violating a college gun ban is not a crime in Colorado or most states - hence, no lawul arrest or gun seiziure can be executed by campus authorioties against students, staff, for mere lawful gun carry.

    http://www.gazette.com/opinion/state-94668-gun-ban.html

    SNIP

    “I have told the CSU police chief I will not support this in any way,” Sheriff Alderden told The Gazette. “If anyone with one of my permits gets arrested for concealed carry at CSU, I will refuse to book that person into my jail. Furthermore, I will show up at court and testify on that person’s behalf, and I will do whatever I can to discourage a conviction. I will not be a party to this very poor decision.”

    --

    And vote in this poll:




    College gun ban

    Should Colorado State students ignore the new weapons ban, as one sheriff suggests?

    Yes, they should ignore the ban

    No, they should obey the campus rules

    I don't know

    I don't care

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    Pace wrote:
    Interesting indeed, and I think if the local sheriff says the law is invalid, then there are is a definable defense.
    That's not what he said - my point is that there is no "law" making it a crime to carry guns on CSU cmapus, openly or concealed with permit - just a college rule like no chewing gum in class.

  5. #5
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    Well, even better

    Mike wrote:
    Pace wrote:
    Interesting indeed, and I think if the local sheriff says the law is invalid, then there are is a definable defense.
    That's not what he said - my point is that there is no "law" making it a crime to carry guns on CSU cmapus, openly or concealed with permit - just a college rule like no chewing gum in class.

  6. #6
    Regular Member Beau's Avatar
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    Mike wrote:
    Pace wrote:
    Interesting indeed, and I think if the local sheriff says the law is invalid, then there are is a definable defense.
    That's not what he said - my point is that there is no "law" making it a crime to carry guns on CSU cmapus, openly or concealed with permit - just a college rule like no chewing gum in class.
    Just a rule, yes. But his rule can involve expulsion. Also, ifa student iscaught carrying and asked to leave the campusthey can be charged with trespass ifthey refuse.

    I don't think there was ever any question of arresting someone for carrying. The sheriff is stating the obvious. He can not arrest someone for the act of carrying. But I think he would have no choice but to charge someone with trespass who refuses to leave the campus.

    What it comes down to is this. How many students are going to risk expulsion by carrying a firearm on campus? I'm sure there will be a few but as a whole most students will not be willing to take that risk.
    Colorado Gun Owners - COGO
    http://www.ColoradoGunOwners.com

    A discussion forum for Colorado Gun Owners.

    Colorado Firearm law.
    http://www.lexisnexis.com/hottopics/colorado/
    Lexis Nexis: Colorado law pertaining to firearms.
    Title 18, Article 12

  7. #7
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    College gun ban

    Should Colorado State students ignore the new weapons ban, as one sheriff suggests?

    Yes, they should ignore the ban - 85%

    No, they should obey the campus rules - 14%

    I don't know - 0%

    I don't care - 0%


    Total Votes: 755

  8. #8
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    Beau wrote:
    Mike wrote:
    Pace wrote:
    Interesting indeed, and I think if the local sheriff says the law is invalid, then there are is a definable defense.
    That's not what he said - my point is that there is no "law" making it a crime to carry guns on CSU cmapus, openly or concealed with permit - just a college rule like no chewing gum in class.
    Just a rule, yes. But his rule can involve expulsion. Also, ifa student iscaught carrying and asked to leave the campusthey can be charged with trespass ifthey refuse.

    I don't think there was ever any question of arresting someone for carrying. The sheriff is stating the obvious. He can not arrest someone for the act of carrying. But I think he would have no choice but to charge someone with trespass who refuses to leave the campus.

    What it comes down to is this. How many students are going to risk expulsion by carrying a firearm on campus? I'm sure there will be a few but as a whole most students will not be willing to take that risk.
    How can they be charged with trespassing if they

    1. Pay to go to the school

    2. Have classes scheduled at the school

    How could a trespass charge stick.

    Just like to know.
    Dave
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    "Today, we need a nation of Minutemen, citizens who are not only prepared to take arms, but citizens who regard the preservation of freedom as the basic purpose of their daily life and who are willing to consciously work and sacrifice for that freedom". - John F. Kennedy, former U.S. President

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    Correct, they can not charge them with tresspass. Additionally CSU is an OPEN CAMPUS, which means any member of the public can go on there legally. I believe that all public colleges are open campuses in Colorado, as they are in most of the nation where Public Colleges are considered Public Property.

    dfox wrote:
    Beau wrote:
    Mike wrote:
    Pace wrote:
    Interesting indeed, and I think if the local sheriff says the law is invalid, then there are is a definable defense.
    That's not what he said - my point is that there is no "law" making it a crime to carry guns on CSU cmapus, openly or concealed with permit - just a college rule like no chewing gum in class.
    Just a rule, yes. But his rule can involve expulsion. Also, ifa student iscaught carrying and asked to leave the campusthey can be charged with trespass ifthey refuse.

    I don't think there was ever any question of arresting someone for carrying. The sheriff is stating the obvious. He can not arrest someone for the act of carrying. But I think he would have no choice but to charge someone with trespass who refuses to leave the campus.

    What it comes down to is this. How many students are going to risk expulsion by carrying a firearm on campus? I'm sure there will be a few but as a whole most students will not be willing to take that risk.
    How can they be charged with trespassing if they

    1. Pay to go to the school

    2. Have classes scheduled at the school

    How could a trespass charge stick.

    Just like to know.

  10. #10
    Regular Member Beau's Avatar
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    dfox wrote:


    How can they be charged with trespassing if they

    1. Pay to go to the school

    2. Have classes scheduled at the school

    How could a trespass charge stick.

    Just like to know.
    When a student enrolls into a school they agree to comply to the policies set forth by the school. If a student refuses to abide by set policies then they are subject to diciplinary actions.

    Colleges are private institutions. Just because you pay them money doesn't mean they can't tell you to leave.
    Colorado Gun Owners - COGO
    http://www.ColoradoGunOwners.com

    A discussion forum for Colorado Gun Owners.

    Colorado Firearm law.
    http://www.lexisnexis.com/hottopics/colorado/
    Lexis Nexis: Colorado law pertaining to firearms.
    Title 18, Article 12

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    The good Sheriff could refuse to arrest for a trumped up trespassing charge just as easily as he could refuse to lend any help enforcing the gun ban itself.

    That said, the REAL threat to students is expulsion. To employees, it is being fired. Nothing the sheriff can do about that.

    And students can be expelled and employees fired for all kinds of reasons that have nothing to do with violating any law.

    Concealed carry reduces, but does not eliminate the risk of getting caught. And it might be a good idea for some students regardless. But it no more solves the problem of wrong headed and bigoted policies be perpetuated using taxpayer money. Many a fair-skinned black man "passed" for white back in the bad old days of segregation. That they could do so was a personal advantage, but hardly a solution to the injustice of Jim Crow laws.

    The real solution is to either force a change in policy either by appealing to the college itself, or going over their head to the legislature or courts, OR to organize widespread enough "civil disobedience" that they can't enforce the policy. I am loathe to encourage deliberate violation of the policy. That can get messy and dangerous in a hurry, and that is before you consider the presence of guns. But neither could I condemn anyone who decided it was the best course and managed to pull it off well.

    Charles
    All experience hath shewn, that mankind are more disposed to suffer, while evils are sufferable, than to right themselves by abolishing the forms to which they are accustomed. Thank heaven we do not permit a few to impose anarchy.

    "With Anarchy as an aim and as a means, Communism becomes possible."
    --Marxist.org

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  12. #12
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    Beau wrote:
    dfox wrote:


    How can they be charged with trespassing if they

    1. Pay to go to the school

    2. Have classes scheduled at the school

    How could a trespass charge stick.

    Just like to know.
    When a student enrolls into a school they agree to comply to the policies set forth by the school. If a student refuses to abide by set policies then they are subject to diciplinary actions.

    Colleges are private institutions. Just because you pay them money doesn't mean they can't tell you to leave.
    True, but they can not be charged with trespassing is all i'm saying.
    Dave
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    "Today, we need a nation of Minutemen, citizens who are not only prepared to take arms, but citizens who regard the preservation of freedom as the basic purpose of their daily life and who are willing to consciously work and sacrifice for that freedom". - John F. Kennedy, former U.S. President

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    When a student enrolls into a school they agree to comply to the policies set forth by the school. If a student refuses to abide by set policies then they are subject to diciplinary actions.

    Colleges are private institutions. Just because you pay them money doesn't mean they can't tell you to leave.
    Huh? What? Public Colleges are PUBLIC INSTITUTIONS that receive public money. They are not private institutions at all. They are federally and state funded, and act as a public entity. Private Colleges can act different, but not a public college.

    Obviously what needs to be done is a law protecting the rights of gun owners on all public spaces.

    The policies set that you agree to, can not be in conflict with state law or civil rights. That is the issue, period.


  14. #14
    Regular Member Beau's Avatar
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    Pace wrote:
    When a student enrolls into a school they agree to comply to the policies set forth by the school. If a student refuses to abide by set policies then they are subject to diciplinary actions.

    Colleges are private institutions. Just because you pay them money doesn't mean they can't tell you to leave.
    Huh? What? Public Colleges are PUBLIC INSTITUTIONS that receive public money. They are not private institutions at all. They are federally and state funded, and act as a public entity. Private Colleges can act different, but not a public college.

    Obviously what needs to be done is a law protecting the rights of gun owners on all public spaces.

    The policies set that you agree to, can not be in conflict with state law or civil rights. That is the issue, period.
    They are not owned by the city or the state. They can receive every cent they get, outside of tuition, from federal, state or city funding. That does not make them a public institution.

    Hospitals also receive a lot of their money from the government. Yet they are still, at least for now, private institutions.

    Back to the trespass charge. It does not matter if you are a student, teacher or visitor. If you are on school property and are asked to leave you can be charged with trespass if you refuse.

    IANAL.
    Colorado Gun Owners - COGO
    http://www.ColoradoGunOwners.com

    A discussion forum for Colorado Gun Owners.

    Colorado Firearm law.
    http://www.lexisnexis.com/hottopics/colorado/
    Lexis Nexis: Colorado law pertaining to firearms.
    Title 18, Article 12

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    Beau wrote:
    They are not owned by the city or the state. They can receive every cent they get, outside of tuition, from federal, state or city funding. That does not make them a public institution.
    State colleges and universities are indeed state agencies, subject to limited pweres via their statutory grant of power and required to respect constitutional rights; private colleges and universityes are not.

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    BEAU: YOU ARE COMPLETELY INCORRECT IN EVERYTHING THAT YOU SAID. Mike is 100% correct.

    Colorado State University (CSU) is a public institution of higher learning.
    I will briefly explain what that means. Among other things, it was created by an act of the State of Colorado. This this case, CSU was created by an act of the Governor in the late 1800's. A public college is an extension of the government and run completely by the government. A private college is run by a corporation, sometimes profit, sometimes non-profit.

    Next: Hospitals. Also incorrect
    . There are public hospitals, owned by the State of Colorado, the City of Denver (and other jurisdictions) and there are private hospitals, owned by corporations. The public hospitals are owned by the government, 100% and run by the government. In fact, most hospitals in this country, and some of the best, are government run by local authorities. The only federal hospital systems that I know of are the Military and the Veterans Hospital.

    As for Public Colleges, depending on the State, there are open campuses and closes campuses. Most States require that the campuses be OPEN, meaning that anyone can enjoy the campus, the facilities and walk on the campus without a reason, since it is public land. A few places, such as NYC allow their publicly funded colleges to be CLOSED campuses.

    LAst of all, you said "owned by the city or the state". The City or the State does not own any department, division, hospital, college, police department, building. They use those properties to engage in their business, services, but the PEOPLE of that STATE, own it. In this case, CSU is owned by the Citizens of Colorado, who have a right to say how they want it governed.

    CSU is a PUBLIC COLLEGE, period.

    My sources: Myself, many years in Law Enforcement, Civil Rights. My father, who was a President of Public College for many years and was nice enough to tell me about closed vs. open colleges, and Wikipedia to confirm that CSU was indeed a public college.



    Beau wrote:
    They are not owned by the city or the state. They can receive every cent they get, outside of tuition, from federal, state or city funding. That does not make them a public institution.

    Hospitals also receive a lot of their money from the government. Yet they are still, at least for now, private institutions.

    Back to the trespass charge. It does not matter if you are a student, teacher or visitor. If you are on school property and are asked to leave you can be charged with trespass if you refuse.

    IANAL.

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    “They say it’s better to be judged by 12 than carried by six,” Alderden said.
    You just have to love a sheriff that goes on the record with that...

    TFred


  18. #18
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    Kudos to this Sheriff!!!!! We need more like him across this nation.
    I am not anti Cop I am just pro Citizen.

    U.S. v. Minker, 350 US 179, at page 187
    "Because of what appears to be a lawful command on the surface, many citizens, because
    of their respect for what only appears to be a law, are cunningly coerced into waiving their
    rights, due to ignorance." (Paraphrased)

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    Would ave been better if he stated "And I will arrest for false imprisonment
    the crooks who brings in the innocent gun owner for carrying."

    Could Arizona Sheriff Joe Arpaio be catching on with law enforcement?
    I hope so.

    As for the hospital example, the Jefferson County AL commission closed
    the cancer ward so they could have a photo op of sick patients being
    denied treatment. If they didn't 'own' it, they could not have done this.
    The hospital has it's own funding source, and money, but they still forced them
    to lock the doors to gain sympathy from the sheep to have their taxes raised.
    I think the greatest example of government run health care quotes was the
    response to nurses who said fine we will work off the clock and treat our patients,
    were then told, "No, you work for us and will not show up for work" by the elected
    officials.

    Now if you are a resident student, and paid your housing, I don't see how they can
    change the rules after the fact and tell you you can't carry now.
    Besides anyone who would trust the campus police with their safety, when they
    themselves are just as likely to be the problem is to stupid to attend college.
    Now if Colorado would just pass a law that guns bought / made on campus are
    exempt from stupid gun laws while on campus.
    I could live with a university seal on the hand grip of a state sponsored Desert Eagle.
    You could always resell it to an incoming freshmen who is to young to buy from ffl
    when you graduate.


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    I hope not. Don't believe his hype.

    SlackwareRobert wrot

    Could Arizona Sheriff Joe Arpaio be catching on with law enforcement?
    I hope so.


  21. #21
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    Should Colorado State students ignore the new weapons ban, as one sheriff suggests?

    Yes, they should ignore the ban 93%

    No, they should obey the campus rules 6%

    I don't know 0%

    I don't care 0%

    Total Votes: 3449
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  22. #22
    Regular Member streetdoc's Avatar
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    Should Colorado State students ignore the new weapons ban, as their sheriff suggests?
    Yes, they should ignore the ban 97%
    No, they should obey the campus rules 3%
    I don't know 0%
    I don't care 0%

    Total Votes: 11924
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