Detained while OC'ing in Cary today

imported post

Smith45acp wrote:

I'll have time to work on this tomorrow. I want to do anything I can to prevent that caller from doing what she did to me to anyone else.

BTWFYI I was the guy sitting to your left at Five Guys Thursday

Click to expand...

I just don't understand how she could have felt threatened. You're about as "normal" looking as they come.

That lady had some SERIOUS problems.

Oh, one more thing, if this is an actionable Federal Civil Rights situation, it will cost you nothing. For FCR violations, the Feds pick up the tab, because it's a prosecution against someone who violated Federal Code.

No cost to you (other than as a taxpayer...)

And those officers from Cary need a refresher course in NC firearms law. If it was concealed, then you CAN'T be charged for GAttTotP, because it's CONCEALED, and nobody could see it. And even if they did charge you with that, it wouldn't hold up in court, because you don't meet all of the "prongs" of the charge--you were NOT on a public highway, and you were not displaying it with the intent to intimidate or commit a crime.

If it's visible and recognizable enough as a handgun to cause a MWAG call, then it is, BY DEFINITION, not concealed.

And if you have a CHP, they can't charge you with EITHER GAttTotP or CCW, because OC is legal (and we don't havea prohibition against "printing" or "unintentional display", and CC is permitted if you have a CHP. :banghead:

Someone needs to enlist a video crew to follow around some OCers in Cary. This sort of LEO behavior needs to be on YouTube...

imported post

I agree with you I think the whole thing was wrong. If he cant tell if you are a BG by seeing what was going on he might need more training. I use a crossbreed also for CC I would rather use that to oc then my holster Like I was saying just asking for my info was not saying what you did was wrong New to OC I have been CC for a year now and I just started OC. I had been looking for what is considered conceal and what is not. Keep us informed on what happens.

imported post

I hate to hear this. I would have filed a formal complaint as well. Anti-2A's just dont understand the rights that EVERY American citizen is entitled to or dont want to face the facts that law-abiding citizens are taking advantage of their rights...

imported post

Sorry this happened to you. It sucks, yes, but this is the risk we all run by asserting our rights. You handled it better than I would have. Stay the course and keep asserting your rights! It's a long road to haul, but we can't give up.

Re: video and voice recorders. Yes, a very good idea to have one on you at all times. My iPod does both and is very compact. It would be great if the local OC community started posting video and audio captures from incidents like this, or other instances when they are approached by people.

(Of course, it's not always possible to start recording. Which is why having an OC buddy is such an advantage!)

Information is power!

imported post

Dreamer wrote:

When anti-2A citizens dial 911 because they are "uncomfortable" with another citizen legally carrying a firearm, it is nothing more than a form of harassment.

Click to expand...

Where was it established the the 911 caller was "anti-2A," Dreamer?





wylde007 wrote:

I agree, the citizen should also be cited for criminal misuse of the emergency dispatch system and punitively fined. The only thing stupid people understand is dollar signs. If they see enough of them, they learn.

Click to expand...

Oh, please. Where in God's name is the basis for "criminal misuse" of the 911 system? You don't even know who calledor what was said.

Your thinking is assuperficial and power-drivenas the LEOs in this case. And just as lacking in integrity.

imported post

Well Hank how do you propose educating the 911 caller so she does not do this to you?

imported post

I just got a call from Capt. McCormick of the CPD Professional Standards office.

He was just as polite and informative as Sgt. Hundley was who took the complaint.

He informed me that there were not one but TWO calls that came in about me this morning, but admitted that he knew NOTHING of the nature of those calls yet and would have to look into it. I explained that of all the jibba jabba I heard from the two responding officers none of it was a more detailed explanation of the nature of the two calls except "We got a call that said you had a gun out here."

I asked how I could ascertain the nature of those calls and he never really gave a clear answer. I think that will be the crux of the whole thing.

But I have to assume that IF someone (well two apparently) called and LIED about the nature of my demeanor or interactions with anyone then the officers should have told me that was specifically what they were there to investigate.

"Well sir we're here because two people called to say you were giving mean looks to their children and you stuck your tongue out at them while caressing your smith's beavertail." Or something to that effect. But they didn't.

I'm not surprised but Cpt. McCormick informed me that even after this is all over, I won't be allowed to know the results of pretty much any of it because that is a confidential personnel issue and state law prevents his disclosing that.

So how will I know that I've done enough. Why would I assume that they're not having a cup of joe and laughing about this together tomorrow morning? It would be in that case that I would want to pursue legal remedies outside of the Professional Standards reach and judgment

I'm a little lost as to what I can or should do next since no one is going to tell me what their response is.

Capt. McCormick mentioned more than once my size as a possible factor to the public's reaction, although kind of in a playful manner. I'm tall but I smile more than the jolly green giant. I told him I can't do much about that.

imported post

I thought I saw a statement some where on this site stating that "The Town of Cary does not allow the open or concealed carry of a weapon while on any public property"

base on what I read, I can carry in Cary?

imported post

Lawmaker wrote:

Well Hank how do you propose educating the 911 caller so she does not do this to you?

Click to expand...

The first step is making sure that this happens:



Smith45acp wrote:

They said they would call her back to let her know I wasn't breaking any laws.

Click to expand...

And that this suggestion gets incorporated in the dispatcher's protocols:

Smith45acp wrote:

I said your dispatcher should have done that from the get go.

Click to expand...

I've answered your question, now a couple for you, Lawmaker:

Do you believe that the actual caller was/is "anti-2A" ?

Do you believe that "the citizen should ...be cited for criminal misuse of the emergency dispatch system and punitively fined?"

I'd like to know your considered opinion...

imported post

airwolf09 wrote:

I thought I saw a statement some where on this site stating that "The Town of Cary does not allow the open or concealed carry of a weapon while on any public property"

base on what I read, I can carry in Cary?

Click to expand...

You can as long as you drive to whatever private parking lot the establishment you're patronizing sits on. You can't walk on greenways or public sidewalks (for example) while OC'ing

imported post

Do you believe that the actual caller was/is "anti-2A" ?

I was there and can't imagine any other reason for the call. I was behaving perfectly normally and as far as I know don't match any descriptions of felons at large they may have seen or read.

Do you believe that "the citizen should ...be cited for criminal misuse of the emergency dispatch system and punitively fined?"

I'd have to hear the calls to make a decision on that. If it was just someone scared and ignorant of the law they need education not punishment. If it was someone saying I was doing anything other than standing in line then they lied and yes.

I'd like to know your considered opinion...

Click to expand...

imported post

Smith45acp wrote:

I'm a little lost as to what I can or should do next since no one is going to tell me what their response is.

Click to expand...

Here's an idea: submit a FOIA request under NC's public records law. I've posted instructions on how to do it here:

http://opencarry.mywowbb.com/forum41/38939.html

Whatever that officer was telling you about the records not being available is crap. Unless they've kept the "investigation" open for some asinine reason, you have a right to request any and all public records relating to the incident.

This includes the 911 calls that prompted your detention. How do you think 911 calls end up on the evening news all the time? The journalists submit FOIA requests since the calls are public record.

I'd be glad to assist with this process. PM me if you want help.

imported post

if it were only cheap cheap enough to get a lawyer that would be the best so hard to get it done yourself if you dont know the system good luck hope you let us know the out come.

imported post

I was the one sitting to your left at Five Guy's Friday. I really hate to hear that this happened. Please do not let it drop or they will never change.

I have not "been there done that" so I do not have any great advise. I think you should continue to visit Capt. McCormick as a concerned citizen and be a real thorn in his side until you are assured they are retrained and it will not happen to anyone else.

I am also very intrigued about Dreamer's suggestion of a FCR suit. Very curious where that would lead!

No matter what path you follow, please keep us updated on where it leads.

imported post

HankT wrote:

Where was it established the the 911 caller was "anti-2A," Dreamer?

Click to expand...

Um, that would have been in the forth sentence of the second paragraph of the OP...

He says well there is a customer (and kind of nods towards her) who is "offended" by your pistol.

Click to expand...

There are only two reasons why someone would be offended by a pistol: 1) If it has something offensive or obscene engraved on the slide, or 2) if that person is anti-gun.

Since I've seen the OP's pistol, and can affirm that it is in fact a box-stock pistol, I think we can safely rule out #1...

The associate didn't say she was "afraid" of the gun. He didn't say she felt "threatened" by it. He said she was "offended" by it. Taking offense to the exercise of a Constitutionally guaranteed activity which would not otherwise be considered threatening, fear-inducing, panic-creating, or otherwise scary or confrontational by a normally rational person could only mean that it wasn't the GUN she was really offended by--it was the fact that it was a CITIZEN WITHOUT A BADGE that had the gun that offended her. If she was REALLY offended by guns, why would she call the police--an action that would GUARANTEE that at least 2 more people with guns would enter the business? Really Hank, let's use some basic logic here. It's pretty obvious this woman was an "anti". Normal rational people might ask you if you were a cop or security guard, or something. A rational person wouldn't complain to the management, and then when they told her that it was perfectly legal, make a 911 call anyway.

She was actively engaged in harassing the OP based on her irrational hoplophobia, and she obviously went out of her way--after being told by the employee that this OCer was perfectly legal--to escalate this situation by calling in a MWAG report on 911. This was not a dangerous situation. The OP was not being mean or rude, or condescending. He was OCing, he was steadfast in expressing his position, and she didn't like the fact that a regular citizen--someone who was not part of the state-sponsored monopoly of force--was exercising his 2A rights.

As for prosecuting people like this for making a false report, well, from what I understand, 911 is supposed to be used for EMERGENCIES. The OP wasn't a criminal, he wasn't brandishing his firearm. He wasn't using threatening language or acting like an a$$hat. He was trying to ship a couple boxes, for chrissake. It was OBVIOUSLY not an "emergency". In fact, the only threatening action in this incident was this woman's irrational hatred of the 2A, and the only emergency was her own unfounded desire to harass an OCer.

Her "feeling offended" had nothing to do with the OP's demeanor or actions. It was based on his assuming that he actually has a right to exercise a Constitutionally-protected activity without fear of harassment.

Interfering with interstate commerce under color of law through overt infringement on a Constitutionally-protected right is a Federal Civil Rights violation. This woman (and eople like her) needs to be prosecuted. What she did was no different than shouting "fire" in a crowded movie theater when there is no fire, or calling in a "suspected gang activity" 911 call because a young black man wearing baggy pants and a basketball jersey entered a business--she created a tense, fearful situation for the LEO's, the OP, and all the customers and staff of this business because she believed her 1A right of "free speech" and her non-existent "right" to not be offended trumped his 2A right.

Nothing could be further from the truth. Nowhere in the Constitution or Bill of Rights is there a guarantee that people can't be offended. She needs to understand that ALL of the first 10 Articles of the BoR carry equal weight. She needs to understand that under NC case law and statutory law, OC is legal, lawful, and NOT in and of itself grounds for presuming a crime is being, has been, or will be committed. (This is a lesson the Cary PD and their dispatchers needs to learn as well--perhaps they need a refresher course in NC case and statute law from the AG, or from their Sheriff. Or better yet, from a Federal Court, in the form of a Civil Rights suit...)

The defense rests...

imported post

Wow, that's pretty crazy. Did you ever ask if you were being detained? I know they physically detained you. Just curious. The two questions that come to mind are "Am I being detained?" and "Am I free to go?" This might be a good jumping off point to challenge the OC statute in Cary. But that would get expensive.

imported post

Smith45acp wrote:

So ten minutes later I'm standing around still waiting on my things to be boxed up, facing the counter when someone grabs both of my wrists from behind and lifts them up my back so I can't move and says this is officer Harris with the Cary Police Dept.,

Click to expand...

This is the part that disturbed me the most...

I can so see Officer Harris eating an elbow, fist or whatever the OCer happned to have in hand, wile trying to pull this crap. How would most of us react if someone grabs at us or our firearm from behind first? ....then identifies??

If an 'unknown' person grabs you or goes for your firearm....a harsh and without hesitation response is called for if possible. A gun grab should be treated as a life threatening event, because it likely is. I for one would not expect one to go, ...wait gotta check who is attacking me! You blindside mob or gun grab an OCer once should expect a harsh response.

Problem is if the next OCer is able to defend a grab and/or attempt at restraint by Officer Harris what likely happens next?

This kind of incompetent and dangerous behavior on the part of these two offices easily could have gotten one of them or a citizen hurt, someone killed, or an ugly legal battle that should not be necessary.

If these officers cant figure out a better way to handle such situations, they don't need to be officers.

imported post

DonTreadOnMe wrote:

Smith45acp wrote:

So ten minutes later I'm standing... facing the counter when someone grabs both of my wrists from behind and lifts them up my back so I can't move and says this is officer Harris with the Cary Police Dept.,

Click to expand...

This is the part that disturbed me the most...

I can so see Officer Harris eating an elbow, fist or whatever the OCer happned to have in hand, wile trying to pull this crap. How would most of us react if someone grabs at us or our firearm from behind first? ....then identifies??

If an 'unknown' person grabs you or goes for your firearm....a harsh and without hesitation response is called for if possible. A gun grab should be treated as a life threatening event, because it likely is. I for one would not expect one to go, ...wait gotta check who is attacking me! You blindside mob or gun grab an OCer once should expect a harsh response.

Problem is if the next OCer is able to defend a grab and/or attempt at restraint by Officer Harris what likely happens next?

This kind of incompetent and dangerous behavior on the part of these two offices easily could have gotten one of them or a citizen hurt, someone killed, or an ugly legal battle that should not be necessary.

If these officers cant figure out a better way to handle such situations, they don't need to be officers.

Click to expand...

Exactly right. The officers acted improperly and, probably, in a very dangerous fashion.

It is also why Smith45acp acted improperly and, probably, dangereously by not being situationally aware of the entry of two big honkin' uniformed officers into the store and into his space.

By not being situationally aware, Smith45acp set up the situation whereby the officer felt OK to just grab. If he had been facing the cops, they would have had to communicate with him and he with them. Better.

imported post

I for one will not and can not see equating a momentary loss of sitation awareness....something I doubt Smith45 will suffer again....with the actions of these officers.

One was being human and making a simple mistake, the officers decided on the course of action that put everyone at risk.

Do I think it is fair to give Smith45acp an little criticism...sure. I am guessing he has beaten himself up even more over it.

The true error in this situation is actions of the officer Harris.

imported post

And what, pray-tell, should lead anyone to expect that two big, honkin' uniformed police officers would act in such a manner unprovoked towards a law-abiding citizen?

Nothing.