Detained while OC'ing in Cary today

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I walk into the Fedex Kinkos this morning at Maynard and Walnut street in Cary to have some items boxed for me and shipped. I've OC'd in this location before but of course I check the doors on the way in for signage.

I hand my things to be boxed up to one clerk and he goes in the back to wrap it up for me. After a couple of minutes one of the other associates behind the counter walks over to me and asks if I have a CCW. I ask him why he wants to know. He says well there is a customer (and kind of nods towards her) who is "offended" by your pistol. I ask is there a Kinko's policy precluding my carrying OR are you asking me to leave because I will do so right away. He says oh no no you don't have to leave. So I said well sir I am not willing to conceal my handgun. So he says ok and walks back over to her like hey I tried.

So ten minutes later I'm standing around still waiting on my things to be boxed up, facing the counter when someone grabs both of my wrists from behind and lifts them up my back so I can't move and says this is officer Harris with the Cary Police Dept., I need you to come with me. So there I am with my credit card and shipping documents left on the counter and I get "purp walked" past about 6 customers in line behind me who are all staring at me like I'm a criminal. On the way out I believe it was the other officer, CPD Officer Burch who disarmed me. We get outside and I'm told to put my hands on the ext. wall and spread em. I comply physically but the whole time I'm telling the officers you need to take a breath and rethink this approach you are making a big mistake. They remove my spyderco from my front pocket and turn me around. Harris asks to see my CCW and ID. I said sir I'm neither driving a car nor carrying a concealed weapon. He says "your gun was partially concealed, if you don't show me your ccw I will charge you". Not wanting to deal with even a completely bogus charge like this I comply while saying, "Sir, the gun was holstered, OF COURSE it is partially concealed just like yours is." (I carry in an IWB supertuck with my shirt tucked in around it, like some of you may have noticed at Five Guys last week. I am adamantly explaining to them that I have broken no laws, and even had the express permission of one of the employees to be carrying inside the store. I keep asking them why they have embarrassed me and purp walked me out of a perfectly legal business transaction and they say we got a 911 call that you were in the store with a gun. I respond "And...???" That's it? I'm not accused of brandishing or threatening anyone? Well no sir but we have to investigate these calls and for our safety we disarmed you. Officer Harris even asks me if I've ever heard of GATTTOTP. I say yes I sure have and my holstered firearm isn't even the same sport, much less the same ball park as that statute. Are you charging me with GATTTOTP? "Well, no". "Then why are you even mentioning that irrelevant statute?" So we go round and round like that for a while before they hand me my empty weapon back and finally say I'm free to go. I said you know what the worse part about this is guys? The ignoramus that called your dispatch is very pleased with herself right now in thinking she's done the right thing. They said they would call her back to let her know I wasn't breaking any laws. I said your dispatcher should have done that from the get go.

I walked back inside and to complete my shipment and of course everyone is staring at me. ONE GUY in the front of the line looks at me and says man that really aint right son.

I get through with Fedex and immediately drive over to CPD to file a complaint. I'm pointed to a community officer who listens to my story and then politely says "Yeah that's exactly how they should have handled it and I would have done the same thing." Then goes into the spiel about officer safety etc... He says the Sgt. I need to speak with to file a complaint isn't here but can be in 10 minutes. I said please send him and wait in the lobby.

Sgt. Hundley arrives and listens to my explanation of events and is a very cool dude. He tried several times (with plenty of tact) to talk me out of filing an official complaint / allowing him to handle it personally but I politely said he could still work on things on his end after I made a record of it. He had to remain neutral but agreed with me that it was an unfortunate turn of events. He said it likely wasn't the officers' fault since all they got from dispatch was an MWAG call. I agreed that the dispatch should have asked for some basic info before sending out the call but explained how the officers' attitudes toward my lawfully OC'ing had clearly not changed even after they had plenty of time to ascertain I was no criminal. They made it clear from beginning to end that my OC'ing was not a good idea and I could fully expect this same reaction from CPD the next time they got a call with no more detail than a MWAG.

I'm posting this here because I want to share the experience first and foremost, but I also want honest reactions to how I have handled it so far, and what, if anything else, I should or could be doing. Every time I think about this I get very angry at both the lady who called and the CPD's justifying her irrational complaint with their response.

I'm supposed to get a call from one of the CPD higher ups in the near future regarding my complaint, and will keep the thread updated.

-Adam

::UPDATED::

Here is the audio of the call to the non emergency line:
http://www.supload.com/sound_confirm.php?get=1279364708.wma

And the associated radio traffic:

http://www.supload.com/listen?s=OWq43h

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Yes please do keep us updated. Also isnt there something that you can do to that woman? Like making a false 911 call?

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I don't know LM, if anyone can shed some light on that I will absolutely pursue it!!

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Well I dont know if it would of been a good idea but maybe (hindsight) could of approached the woman after you became aware that she had an issue and provided her with a pamphlet or OC card if you had one. I wonder what would of happened then.

Personally I would of already lawyer'd up. As that is the only real way to make change happen in Gov.

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BRAVO!
Sounds like you handled that EXCELLENTLY! The fact that the officer said "partially concealed" completely refutes his concealed weapon charge.

I can't believe the nerve of these guys; especially saying it was handled well after the fact and that it would be done the same in the future.

I don't know why I'm continually surprised that those who are supposed to enforce and judge the law, really don't care bout the law:cuss:

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You handled it well.
I would have asked them to escort me back into the store and apologize to me and tell the customers that witnessed the whole ordeal that I had not broken any laws.

My main problem is the way that they confronted you. That could end extremely badly for someone to accost an OCer without prior ID being given.

Generally speaking, when I am in places like that, unless I am specifically dealing with an employee I am not directly facing the counter. I usually stand at around 90* to the counter so I can see the store. Sometimes that is gun side out, sometimes it isn't.

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Wow I am very sorry to hear how they mistreated you. I would have filed the complaint to. It seems to me that you kept your head and did everything in your power to explain your situation with the officers, who plainly didn't care about whether or not you were in the clear. It also seems like they put you through all of that just to "justify" there actions at the beginning of the encounter. Please do keep us updated.

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Smith45acp wrote:

I walk into the Fedex Kinkos this morning at Maynard and Walnut street in Cary to have some items boxed for me and shipped...

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I think you handled the situation very well and am glad you are insisting on filing a complaint. A complaint which should be found justified. Don't let the LEOs get away with overstepping their authority.

I wonder, however, how you didn't see the cop come up to you. When they grab a person's arms like that it usually hurts like hell. Were you simply not paying attention?

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Lawmaker wrote:

Well I dont know if it would of been a good idea but maybe (hindsight) could of approached the woman after you became aware that she had an issue and provided her with a pamphlet or OC card if you had one. I wonder what would of happened then.

Personally I would of already lawyer'd up. As that is the only real way to make change happen in Gov.

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Yeah I looked in my wallet after the guy asked me to conceal and didn't have any cards... But even after hearing my conversation with the clerk who said yeah you can carry on this woman called 911 so she sounds about as anti as anti gets you know what I mean?

I don't have a lot of money to throw at a case like this. Does anyone have an attorney contact I could get with who would listen to my situation and advise on possible courses of action. I really want most to ensure this would never happen again, given these circumstances.

Except for their approaching me at the counter, and walking me out in that compromising position, everything took place in front of their cruiser outside. I'm trying to ascertain whether the dashcam and audio were running, and if they're willing to hand it over to me.

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HankT wrote:

Smith45acp wrote:

I walk into the Fedex Kinkos this morning at Maynard and Walnut street in Cary to have some items boxed for me and shipped...

Click to expand...

I think you handled the situation very well and am glad you are insisting on filing a complaint. A complaint which should be found justified. Don't let the LEOs get away with overstepping their authority.

I wonder, however, how you didn't see the cop come up to you. When they grab a person's arms like that it usually hurts like hell. Were you simply not paying attention?

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I had been aware of my surroundings pretty well up until that point, I was literally handing my credit card to the guy as he was completing my shipping transaction when I was grabbed and I sort of unwittingly dropped everything on the counter. My attention at that point was all on the clerk.

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Maybe we should start a legal defense fund.

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When anti-2A citizens dial 911 because they are "uncomfortable" with another citizen legally carrying a firearm, it is nothing more than a form of harassment.

You should file a FOIA for the 911 call, and post the audio on YouTube. If you can get the caller's name, you might potentially have grounds for a Federal Civil Rights violation suit, because your transaction involved interstate commerce, and she was attempting to interfere with interstate commerce under color of law, based on her knowingly violating your Constitutionally-protected rights...

As for the dashcam, if you file a FOIA request, they HAVE to give it to you. Same with the original 911 call tapes. However, if they left this "investigation" as an "open case", they don't have to turn over that stuff...

If an employee of a business told me that some other customer was so "uncomfortable" with my legally-carried firearm that they complained, I would seriously consider telling that employee that I was legally carrying, but since I don't want to cause any problems, I would rather leave and conduct my business at a location that respected my Constitutional rights, because that other customer was making ME uncomfortable. It's relatively simple for them to cancel a transaction if its not completed.

The only way that businesses will support 2A legal carry is if they realize that 1) it is perfectly legal, 2) we present no threat to anyone, and 3) if harassed about our legal activity, we will happily leave their business and their anti-2A customers in peace, and take our business elsewhere, and that we will report the incident on a NATIONAL gun rights forum with tens of thousands of members...

The only thing businesses understand is money. By completing your transaction, you sent the message to that business and that customer that such harassment is OK, and that it is perfectly OK to treat people who are legally and lawfully carrying firearms like criminals, even when they have committed no crime.

I know the employee said he didn't have an issue. I know you were in the middle of a transaction. But when you got "perp walked" out of the store, you should have told the employee to hold off with processing your transaction until you came back, and then when you came back, you should have canceled the transaction and told him you would be taking your business elsewhere.

That would have been the "hard-core activist" way to deal with that situation...

Of course, if you would have just shown your permit to the employee, and then shown it to the customer, she probably would never had made the call. For some reason, even the most frothing anti's seem to "give a pass" to people who have their papers in order. Most of them dont realize that in NC you only need a permit to carry CONCEALED and that Open CARRY requires no permit. But for some reason (mostly because they don't know the law) a CHP will shut them up.

When confronted with a fascist who is asking for your papers...
Ihr Papier Bitte!
showing them your papers makes them look like the stupid, fascist ninnies they really are. Turn the situation around on them--humiliate and embarass THEM by proving that you ARE in fact, "state approved" to carry a firearm. It sucks that people act like this, but perhaps the most effective way to deal with them is to play into their hand, win their trust, and then slowly and subtly show them how illogical their thinking is.

This method of dealing with it (presenting a CHP) is not as "hard core", because it's using the Permit to justify a RIGHT that doesn't require a permit, but it often works with these silly, passive-aggressive anti's. Plus, because it allows you to approach them face-to-face to show them your permit, it gives you an excellent chance for an "educational opportunity", where you can actually speak directly, in a civil manner, with these passive-aggressive know-nothings, and expose them for the brainwashed pseudo-fascists they are...

It COULD go something like this:

Employee: Do you have a CCW?
OCer: Well, in North Carolina, CCW is an acronym for "carrying a concealed weapon" and THAT is a crime. But if you mean do I have a Concealed Handgun Permit, then the answer is Yes. Would you like to see it?
Employee: Oh, OK...
OCer: Do you think it would help calm this customer if she saw my permit?
Employee: Let me ask her...
AntiCustomer: Do you have a permit for that?
OCer: Well, I have a permit to carry concealed, would you like to see it?
AntiCustomer: Oh... OK...
OCer: actually, here in NC, this permit is ONLY required if I'm carrying a handgun in a concealed manner, like under a coat, or in my pocket. The way our laws are here in NC, it is perfectly legal and lawful for anyone who may legally purchase and possess an handgun to carry it in plain view without any sort of permit or license. It's called Open Carry, and I assure you it it 100% legal.
AntiCustomer: Well, it's scary, and why do you need to have it where everyone can see it?
OCer: Well, when you see a police officer carrying his gun and nightstick and mace and handcuffs out in plain view, does that scare you?
AntiCustomer: well, no...
OCer: well, I'm a law-abiding citizen. I had to pass a Federal background check to purchase this firearm. And I had to pass another set of state and federal background checks AND be fingerprinted to get my CHP. So believe me, I've probably got a cleaner record, and I'm probably a more law-abiding citizen than most of the people in this store. You have nothing to fear from me.
AntiCustomer: well, I just don't understand why you can't conceal it.
OCer: Why do police, or soldiers or security guards not carry concealed then? I carry concealed because I believe in my right to keep, and BEAR, arms, as guaranteed by both the US and the NC constitutions. I carry to defend myself against criminals and thugs. If I carry concealed, then to a criminal, I look like every other person on the street--an unarmed, potential victim. But when a "bad guy" sees that I am "open carrying" he KNOWS that I am not willing to be a victim, and he will move on down the road. I'd much rather wear my firearm out where it is visible, and scare off a bad guy when he spots it on my hip. If I have it concealed, and I am attacked because a bad guy thought I was unable to defend myself, then I'm in a position where I have to draw it and shoot if. I'd much rather not shoot ANYONE--even a bad guy. Openly carrying my firearm lets criminals know that I am not willing to be a victim.

I open carry because I know that criminals are lazy and cowardly. I open carry because it greatly reduces my chances of being attacked or accosted by criminals or thugs. I open carry because, as a responsible citizen, it is my obligation to do whatever I can to keep my community safe and peaceful, and I know that criminals only attack people who they think can't or won't defend themselves. By open carrying, I actually make our community a safer and more peaceful place. And I know that although the average response time for a 911 call in this area is about 10 minutes, the average mugging or other violent crime is done and over with in under 2 minutes.

AntiCustomer: Well, I still think it's scary, and I don't want to see it.
OCer: Well, do you drive a car? (yes) The first time you drove, wasn't it's scary? (well, yes). that was because you didn't understand how cars worked, and you didn't have any expereince with them. It's perfectly normal to fear things we don't understand. Perhaps I can recommend a qualified female instructor for you, and you could go to a range and learn how to properly and safely use a firearm. I'd be willing to bet that if you knew how firearms worked, you'd be less afraid of them...

blah, blah, blah...

Wouldn't that be MUCH better than being a "test case" in some sort of "kangaroo court of the street?"

What I'm getting at, is that there are TWO ways to deal with these anti's. We can stubbornly "stand our ground", and that will often end up with a 911 call and an otherwise law-abiding citizen being "perp walked" out of a store by a couple overzealous LEOs in front of EVERYONE. That only serves to re-enforce their belief that there MUST be something wrong with OCing, and such an incident does NO GOOD for the cause.

Or we can attempt to play into their ignorance and fears, and actively engage them in a civil conversation, and use the situation to EDUCATE these anti's and business owners that OC is perfectly legal, and OCers are some of the most law-abiding, civic-minded, peace-loving people in their community.

Personally, I BELIEVE in the first method on principle, but I think that perhaps the second method might serve our cause a little better. Even if the "anti" walks away muttering about "cowboys" and "penis compensation", at least they didn't dial 911, and put you in a humiliating situation that is only going to be remembered by spectators as "a guy got arrested for carrying a gun at the Kinko's today"...

What happened to you was COMPLETELY unfair. You were doing something perfectly legal, and got treated like a criminal. The woman who essentially made a false police report, and caused the Cary PD to waste hundreds of dollars of resources to investigate a non-issue walked free, and got the satisfaction of having successfully ruined your day and humiliated you in front of a bunch of other people. It sucks, and SHE should be the one being "perp-walked" for filing a false report.

But truth be told, if you would have engaged her in a civil and peaceful manner, you perhaps could have converted that 911 call into an educational experience for a whole store full of people.

Instead, you played "hard ball" and ended up looking like a criminal to a bunch of strangers, who will probably never know the truth of the story...

Better luck next time.

I'd suggest finding another shipping provider in the future though...

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My chest twisted reading this.

I hate hearing stories about this. Police officers know how to ascertain a situation and they don't go grabbing everyone they see with a holstered gun (as in they're not legally allowed to). Sometimes I wonder if actions are done as a way to satisfy the person that made the call (if anyone in fact made a call). If you were unaware of their prescence until you were physically detained at the counter they easily would have known you had no negative intentions and if they wanted to talk to you, they could have waited for you to finish your transaction or at least been more peaceful and less forceful. Not to mention the fact that they detained you without any just-cause of course the typical excuse will be; "We felt there was an [insert criminal situation here] inprogress so in the interest ofofficer safety, the safety of the store patrons, and standard operating procedure, we aprehended the suspect." Which is ridiculous because if they did walk up behind you in the middle of your transaction they knew you were doing nothing wrong at that time, there was no evidence that you had previously committed a crime, and there was no evidence you were going to committ a crime.

Poppycock...

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Those officers should be put on desk duty or assigned to crossing-guard posts.

What imbeciles. They used unjustifiable physical force to detain you (you could have been seriously injured) and then they unlawfully disarmed you without provocation, cause or RAS.

I would not only file the formal complaint, but a civil suit against the department for violation of 2nd and 4th Amendment rights.

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VOICE RECORDERS!!!

These should be standard equipment for all OCers...

If you had been carrying a voice recorder, you could have started recording as soon as the employee first approached you. Then you could have played it for the police to show that the business owner had no problem with your OCing...

Remember folks, here in NC, we have "one party consent" for recording and videotaping. You don;t need someone else's permission (not even the police) to record any conversation or interaction that happens out in public.

VOICE RECORDERS!!!

A good one costs less than 100 rounds of range ammo. There's no excuse not to have one...

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Dreamer wrote:

Then you could have played it for the police to show that the business owner had no problem with your OCing...

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While a good idea to carry a recorder, this is immaterial to the argument.

Whether the business owner was comfortable with it or not has no bearing. The officers responded to a MWAG call and, rather than investigate the seriousness (by, oh say, looking through the plate glass windows on the front of the building and seeing that there was no "holdup" taking place) of the anonymous report they could have saved themselves potential embarrassment and the possibility of a lawsuit and ending up with egg on their faces.

No one, I repeat NO ONE's feelings trump your Constitutional rights, most-especially where they are protected by statutory law.

Those officers violated this man's rights hinged on a complaint which had no standing under color of law.

I agree, the citizen should also be cited for criminal misuse of the emergency dispatch system and punitively fined. The only thing stupid people understand is dollar signs. If they see enough of them, they learn.

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Sorry to hear what happened to you but I have a quick question Just for my info you stated that you had a IWB holster. I always thought if you had any part of the weapon concealed it was considered concealed am I wrong on that? I always use a OTW holster for open carry.

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Hi - sorry to hear about your experience. I would also persue getting the info from the detainment. How long were you detained?

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Dreamer wrote:

When anti-2A citizens dial 911 because they are "uncomfortable" with another citizen legally carrying a firearm, it is nothing more than a form of harassment.

You should file a FOIA for the 911 call, and post the audio on YouTube. If you can get the caller's name, you might potentially have grounds for a Federal Civil Rights violation suit, because your transaction involved interstate commerce, and she was attempting to interfere with interstate commerce under color of law, based on her knowingly violating your Constitutionally-protected rights...

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I'll have time to work on this tomorrow. I want to do anything I can to prevent that caller from doing what she did to me to anyone else.

BTWFYI I was the guy sitting to your left at Five Guys Thursday

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bwhunter65 wrote:

Sorry to hear what happened to you but I have a quick question Just for my info you stated that you had a IWB holster. I always thought if you had any part of the weapon concealed it was considered concealed am I wrong on that? I always use a OTW holster for open carry.

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I'm not the expert you're looking for but it's always been my understanding that if enough of the handgun is visible at all times to obviously BE a firearm it is not concealed. My setup only conceals the breach and barrel.



I was unlawfully detained for around 15 minutes.