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Thread: SB-11 is now Law!

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    http://www.ksl.com/?nid=148&sid=9824672
    SALT LAKE CITY (AP) -- Republican Utah Gov. Gary Herbert has a signed a bill into law that would exempt Utah from any federal regulations on firearms manufactured and sold within the state.
    Herbert signed Senate Bill 11 into law on Friday, the last day he had to take action on the measure.
    The bill is intended to spur a U.S. Supreme Court battle and follows similar measures adopted in Montana and Tennessee.
    In signing the bill, Herbert said it is time for states to stand up to the federal government.
    Democrats have decried the measure and said the state will waste millions of dollars defending it in court with little chance of success at a time state programs are being slashed.

    :celebrate:celebrate:celebrate

    Cliff notes: Gov signs it into law, state Dems say "don't try to defend our soverignty, it costs too much, instead lets waste billions to prevent this myth calledglobal warming"

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    State Researcher Kevin Jensen's Avatar
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    I called the Governors' office, and sent him an email, thanking him for signing this important legislation.
    "An armed society is a polite society. Manners are good when one may have to back up his acts with his life." Robert A. Heinlein

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    Campaign Veteran marshaul's Avatar
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    So when is someone gonna start manufacturing full-auto weapons in one of these "Federal laws do not apply" states?

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    marshaul wrote:
    So when is someone gonna start manufacturing full-auto weapons in one of these "Federal laws do not apply" states?
    I had an ATF agent over on Wednesday doing a routine inspection of my records. While he was there, I spoke with him about SB-11. Not sure if this is in any way official (probably not), but he said that the local ATF stance was that they planned to tell all the firearm dealers that they were expected to continue operations following all federal laws or face prison time.

    I specifically asked him what he thought would happen if someone started manufacturing NFA items (silencers, machineguns, etc.) for Utah use only. He said that anyone trying that would have "a fight on their hands" and ATF agents "all over them".

    I hold a manufacturing license and pay the SOT so I can currently manufacture these items legally anyway, but I'd be VERY excited to be able to make and sell these to any law abiding citizens in Utah. I plan to explore these ideas further...

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    This deserves a whole row of dancing bananas!
    :celebrate:celebrate:celebrate:celebrate:celebrate :celebrate:celebrate:celebrate:celebrate:celebrate :celebrate:celebrate:celebrate:celebrate:celebrate :celebrate

    I can't wait to post a picture of my new AR with 3 round burst made right here in good ol' UT!

    Thank you Gov. Herbert!

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    State Researcher Kevin Jensen's Avatar
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    Automatic weapons, including burst, other than shotguns, are not covered under this new law.

    http://le.utah.gov/~2010/bills/sbillenr/sb0011.htm

    (2) This chapter does not apply to:
    ...
    (c) a firearm that discharges two or more projectiles with one activation of the trigger or other firing device, other than a shotgun; or
    "An armed society is a polite society. Manners are good when one may have to back up his acts with his life." Robert A. Heinlein

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    Braveheart23C wrote:
    ... new AR with 3 round burst made right here in good ol' UT!

    Thank you Gov. Herbert!
    Note that Montana's bill also specifically excludes machine guns (even they didn't want to fight that particular battle). They are going to push the issue on silencers though, just like Utah. Neither bill makes mention of short barrel weapons, so presumably you could also manufacture Utah only short barrel rifles and shotguns.

    The machining capabilities needed to manufacture silencers are not that big of a barrier. Assuming they had the balls to become the test case, someone could easily start creating and selling silencers in short order.

    My feeling is that there is a long and uncertain road ahead on this one, but I'm excited to see any efforts to reign in the power of Congress to “regulate commerce … among the states.” Good reading: http://firearmsfreedomact.com/what-i...mmerce-clause/

    I also send a big "Thank You!" to all those involved in getting this on the books. Time will tell if it is all just political posturing, or real progress in the direction of freedom.

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    leeland

    I specifically asked him what he thought would happen if someone started manufacturing NFA items (silencers, machineguns, etc.) for Utah use only. He said that anyone trying that would have "a fight on their hands" and ATF agents "all over them".

    Under the new law, if a suppressor is made here in Utah, it is covered and could be sold to a Utah resident without the Feds. It is covered under firearm accessories (highlighted in red).

    53-5b-102. Legal considerations.
    (8) A personal firearm, a firearm action or receiver, a firearm accessory, or
    64 ammunition that is manufactured commercially or privately in the state to be used or sold
    65 within the state is not subject to federal law or federal regulation, including registration, under
    66 the authority of congress to regulate interstate commerce.

    53-5b-103. Definitions.
    (2)"Firearm accessory" means an item that is used in conjunction with or mounted
    92 upon a firearm, firearm action, or firearm receiver but is not essential to the basic function of a
    93 firearm, including:
    (a) a telescopic or laser sight;
    95 (b) a magazine;
    96 (c) a flash or sound suppressor;
    97 (d) a folding or aftermarket stock or grip;
    98 (e) a speed-loader;
    99 (f) an ammunition carrier; and
    100 (g) a light for target illumination.
    101 (3) "Generic and insignificant parts:"
    102 (a) means parts that have other manufacturing or consumer product applications; and
    103 (b) includes:
    104 (i) springs;
    105 (ii) screws;
    106 (iii) nuts; and
    107 (iv) pins.
    108 (4) "Manufactured" means creating a firearm, a firearm action or receiver, a firearm
    109 accessory, or ammunition from basic materials for functional usefulness, including:
    110 (a) forging;
    111 (b) casting;
    112 (c) machining; and
    113 (d) another process for working materials.

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    mqondo wrote
    Under the new law, if a suppressor is made here in Utah, it is covered and could be sold to a Utah resident without the Feds....
    Yeah, I just finished re-reading and really internalizing the wording of the law. I realize that you could do it, but if this inspector was correct, anyone attempting to actually do so would still get grabbed/charged by the feds. Everyone knew ahead of time that this law was specifically to provide a test case to challenge federal infringement of 9th, 10th amendments. Guns are just the latest vehicle chosen to make this stand.

    California picked marijuana cultivation/use/distribution to make their stand, and there have been plenty of arrests/raids made by federal agents in direct violation of their state laws. Guns are a more interesting way to make the challenge because the proposed markings make it easier to argue that no interstate commerce is involved.

    Final note, when I was speaking with him, one of the ATF inspectors major concerns with the law was that Utah only marked guns would turn up out of state, be used in a crime, and have no serial numbers to help trace the custody of the weapon back. You can bet that as soon as that happens, the Feds will be right back pushing the "affects interstate commerce" button.

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    mqondo wrote:
    leeland

    I specifically asked him what he thought would happen if someone started manufacturing NFA items (silencers, machineguns, etc.) for Utah use only. He said that anyone trying that would have "a fight on their hands" and ATF agents "all over them".
    Under the new law, if a suppressor is made here in Utah, it is covered and could be sold to a Utah resident without the Feds. It is covered under firearm accessories (highlighted in red).
    Well, yes, that is what the Utah law says. But the federal government, including the ATF, disagrees. I have no doubt that anyone who tries it is indeed going to have a fight on their hands and ATF agents all over them.

    To up the ante, one of the states that has passed a law like this (Tennessee?) also made it a state crime for any federal agent to enforce federal gun law that the state says is inapplicable. So the ATF agents would arrest the silencer maker, and then the state troopers would arrest the ATF agents!

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    Campaign Veteran marshaul's Avatar
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    SGT Jensen wrote:
    Automatic weapons, including burst, other than shotguns, are not covered under this new law.

    http://le.utah.gov/~2010/bills/sbillenr/sb0011.htm

    (2) This chapter does not apply to:
    ...
    (c) a firearm that discharges two or more projectiles with one activation of the trigger or other firing device, other than a shotgun; or
    Lame.

    [flash=480,400]http://media.mtvnservices.com/mgid:cms:item:southparkstudios.com:150759[/flash]

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    I don't know if any of ya'll are over on UtahConcealedCarry.com, but over there I pointed out that due to the wording used in this law, Automatic Shotguns ARE legal (unintentionally, but still legal)... SBS would be legal as well... I know Vector Arms makes a short barrel shotgun (Mossberg 590A1 Entry Shotgun), but sadly I do not think any Utah manufactures make an automatic shotgun... Hopefully that changes

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    If I recall correctly, Utah law already has a clause that prohibits short barrel rifles and shotguns so, according to SB11, you could not be charged under the federal statute but could still be charged under the Utah statute.

    If a local FFL business starts making MiU supressors, the ATF can and likely will revoke their license which will likely kill their business. A better option would be to start having make your own suppressor classes which would just be individual Utah residents making accessories in Utah for their own private use. Can we find an instructor?

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    State Researcher Kevin Jensen's Avatar
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    Francis Marion wrote:
    If I recall correctly, Utah law already has a clause that prohibits short barrel rifles and shotguns so, according to SB11, you could not be charged under the federal statute but could still be charged under the Utah statute.
    I believe what you are referring to is the concealed dangerous weapon law.

    Short barreled rifles and shotguns may not be concealed, even with a permit.


    76-10-504 . Carrying concealed dangerous weapon -- Penalties.
    (1) Except as provided in Section 76-10-503 and in Subsections (2), (3), and (4), a person who carries a concealed dangerous weapon, as defined in Section 76-10-501, including an unloaded firearm on his or her person or one that is readily accessible for immediate use which is not securely encased, as defined in this part, in or on a place other than the person's residence, property, a vehicle in the person's lawful possession, or a vehicle, with the consent of the individual who is lawfully in possession of the vehicle, or business under the person's control is guilty of a class B misdemeanor.
    (2) A person who carries a concealed dangerous weapon which is a loaded firearm in violation of Subsection (1) is guilty of a class A misdemeanor.
    (3) A person who carries concealed a sawed-off shotgun or a sawed-off rifle is guilty of a second degree felony.
    (4) If the concealed firearm is used in the commission of a violent felony as defined in Section 76-3-203.5, and the person is a party to the offense, the person is guilty of a second degree felony.
    (5) Nothing in Subsection (1) or (2) shall prohibit a person engaged in the lawful taking of protected or unprotected wildlife as defined in Title 23, Wildlife Resources Code of Utah, from carrying a concealed weapon or a concealed firearm with a barrel length of four inches or greater as long as the taking of wildlife does not occur:
    (a) within the limits of a municipality in violation of that municipality's ordinances; or
    (b) upon the highways of the state as defined in Section 41-6a-102.
    "An armed society is a polite society. Manners are good when one may have to back up his acts with his life." Robert A. Heinlein

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    swillden wrote:
    mqondo wrote:
    leeland

    I specifically asked him what he thought would happen if someone started manufacturing NFA items (silencers, machineguns, etc.) for Utah use only. He said that anyone trying that would have "a fight on their hands" and ATF agents "all over them".
    Under the new law, if a suppressor is made here in Utah, it is covered and could be sold to a Utah resident without the Feds. It is covered under firearm accessories (highlighted in red).
    Well, yes, that is what the Utah law says. But the federal government, including the ATF, disagrees. I have no doubt that anyone who tries it is indeed going to have a fight on their hands and ATF agents all over them.

    To up the ante, one of the states that has passed a law like this (Tennessee?) also made it a state crime for any federal agent to enforce federal gun law that the state says is inapplicable. So the ATF agents would arrest the silencer maker, and then the state troopers would arrest the ATF agents!
    Maybe we need to start pushing for Utah to pass something like this...?

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    SGT Jensen wrote:
    Francis Marion wrote:
    If I recall correctly, Utah law already has a clause that prohibits short barrel rifles and shotguns so, according to SB11, you could not be charged under the federal statute but could still be charged under the Utah statute.
    I believe what you are referring to is the concealed dangerous weapon law.

    Short barreled rifles and shotguns may not be concealed, even with a permit.


    76-10-504 . Carrying concealed dangerous weapon -- Penalties.
    (1) Except as provided in Section 76-10-503 and in Subsections (2), (3), and (4), a person who carries a concealed dangerous weapon, as defined in Section 76-10-501, including an unloaded firearm on his or her person or one that is readily accessible for immediate use which is not securely encased, as defined in this part, in or on a place other than the person's residence, property, a vehicle in the person's lawful possession, or a vehicle, with the consent of the individual who is lawfully in possession of the vehicle, or business under the person's control is guilty of a class B misdemeanor.
    (2) A person who carries a concealed dangerous weapon which is a loaded firearm in violation of Subsection (1) is guilty of a class A misdemeanor.
    (3) A person who carries concealed a sawed-off shotgun or a sawed-off rifle is guilty of a second degree felony.
    (4) If the concealed firearm is used in the commission of a violent felony as defined in Section 76-3-203.5, and the person is a party to the offense, the person is guilty of a second degree felony.
    (5) Nothing in Subsection (1) or (2) shall prohibit a person engaged in the lawful taking of protected or unprotected wildlife as defined in Title 23, Wildlife Resources Code of Utah, from carrying a concealed weapon or a concealed firearm with a barrel length of four inches or greater as long as the taking of wildlife does not occur:
    (a) within the limits of a municipality in violation of that municipality's ordinances; or
    (b) upon the highways of the state as defined in Section 41-6a-102.
    I think you are right SGT Jensen, from my understanding, and from what all the sellers of short barreled/sawed offshotguns website's state, SBS shotguns are only restricted in 11 states, and those states are: AL, CA, DE, HI, IL, IN, MA, NJ, NY, RI, WA... Kansas no longer has restrictions on SBS.

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    leeland wrote:
    mqondo wrote
    Under the new law, if a suppressor is made here in Utah, it is covered and could be sold to a Utah resident without the Feds....
    Yeah, I just finished re-reading and really internalizing the wording of the law. I realize that you could do it, but if this inspector was correct, anyone attempting to actually do so would still get grabbed/charged by the feds. Everyone knew ahead of time that this law was specifically to provide a test case to challenge federal infringement of 9th, 10th amendments. Guns are just the latest vehicle chosen to make this stand.

    California picked marijuana cultivation/use/distribution to make their stand, and there have been plenty of arrests/raids made by federal agents in direct violation of their state laws. Guns are a more interesting way to make the challenge because the proposed markings make it easier to argue that no interstate commerce is involved.

    Final note, when I was speaking with him, one of the ATF inspectors major concerns with the law was that Utah only marked guns would turn up out of state, be used in a crime, and have no serial numbers to help trace the custody of the weapon back. You can bet that as soon as that happens, the Feds will be right back pushing the "affects interstate commerce" button.
    Leeland, the Supreme Court stated that there is no way to differentiate between marijuana in California or another state (Gonzales v. Raich, case no. 03-1454).

    Here, Guns will be marked "made in Utah" This is the saving grace if you will to get around the G vs. Rruling and Wickard v. Filburn when combined with the 9th and 10th amendments.



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    SGT Jensen wrote:
    Francis Marion wrote:
    If I recall correctly, Utah law already has a clause that prohibits short barrel rifles and shotguns so, according to SB11, you could not be charged under the federal statute but could still be charged under the Utah statute.
    I believe what you are referring to is the concealed dangerous weapon law.

    Short barreled rifles and shotguns may not be concealed, even with a permit.


    76-10-504 . Carrying concealed dangerous weapon -- Penalties.
    (1) Except as provided in Section 76-10-503 and in Subsections (2), (3), and (4), a person who carries a concealed dangerous weapon, as defined in Section 76-10-501, including an unloaded firearm on his or her person or one that is readily accessible for immediate use which is not securely encased, as defined in this part, in or on a place other than the person's residence, property, a vehicle in the person's lawful possession, or a vehicle, with the consent of the individual who is lawfully in possession of the vehicle, or business under the person's control is guilty of a class B misdemeanor.
    (2) A person who carries a concealed dangerous weapon which is a loaded firearm in violation of Subsection (1) is guilty of a class A misdemeanor.
    (3) A person who carries concealed a sawed-off shotgun or a sawed-off rifle is guilty of a second degree felony.
    (4) If the concealed firearm is used in the commission of a violent felony as defined in Section 76-3-203.5, and the person is a party to the offense, the person is guilty of a second degree felony.
    (5) Nothing in Subsection (1) or (2) shall prohibit a person engaged in the lawful taking of protected or unprotected wildlife as defined in Title 23, Wildlife Resources Code of Utah, from carrying a concealed weapon or a concealed firearm with a barrel length of four inches or greater as long as the taking of wildlife does not occur:
    (a) within the limits of a municipality in violation of that municipality's ordinances; or
    (b) upon the highways of the state as defined in Section 41-6a-102.
    That probably was what I remembered. Anybody else want a short barreled XCR?

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    hu, lets think. i have full access to a fully equipped machine shop. I wonder if i could make my 10mm quieter

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    I love UTAH!
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    leeland wrote:
    Braveheart23C wrote:
    ... new AR with 3 round burst made right here in good ol' UT!

    Thank you Gov. Herbert!
    Note that Montana's bill also specifically excludes machine guns (even they didn't want to fight that particular battle).
    Don't try to win back the entire Constitution in one go. Let's get the Commerce Clause excesses cut back down to size with binding SC precedent before we start pruning NFA. We've been losing our rights since 1935. We won't win them back overnight.

    Bravo to Gov. Herbert!

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    I have heard that the Montana-based group that is already suing the feds to get the federal recognition of the Montana law is asking existing gun manufacturers and others NOT to start manufacturing State-specific guns yet. They want a perfectly clean case based on just the laws as written without any possible baggage that might come from a real defendant actually being charged with a crime. This seems a perfectly prudent course of action for now unless someone has very deep pockets and a burning desire to have his name forever attached to whatever decision might get rendered.

    Charles
    All experience hath shewn, that mankind are more disposed to suffer, while evils are sufferable, than to right themselves by abolishing the forms to which they are accustomed. Thank heaven we do not permit a few to impose anarchy.

    "With Anarchy as an aim and as a means, Communism becomes possible."
    --Marxist.org

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    YoZUpZ wrote:
    swillden wrote:
    mqondo wrote:
    leeland

    I specifically asked him what he thought would happen if someone started manufacturing NFA items (silencers, machineguns, etc.) for Utah use only. He said that anyone trying that would have "a fight on their hands" and ATF agents "all over them".
    Under the new law, if a suppressor is made here in Utah, it is covered and could be sold to a Utah resident without the Feds. It is covered under firearm accessories (highlighted in red).
    Well, yes, that is what the Utah law says. But the federal government, including the ATF, disagrees. I have no doubt that anyone who tries it is indeed going to have a fight on their hands and ATF agents all over them.

    To up the ante, one of the states that has passed a law like this (Tennessee?) also made it a state crime for any federal agent to enforce federal gun law that the state says is inapplicable. So the ATF agents would arrest the silencer maker, and then the state troopers would arrest the ATF agents!
    Maybe we need to start pushing for Utah to pass something like this...?
    And this is how it should be in all 50 individual states that make up our federation! Here mud in your eye big oversized Federal Govt!
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    John Hardin wrote:
    leeland wrote:
    Braveheart23C wrote:
    ... new AR with 3 round burst made right here in good ol' UT!

    Thank you Gov. Herbert!
    Note that Montana's bill also specifically excludes machine guns (even they didn't want to fight that particular battle).
    Don't try to win back the entire Constitution in one go. Let's get the Commerce Clause excesses cut back down to size with binding SC precedent before we start pruning NFA. We've been losing our rights since 1935. We won't win them back overnight.

    Bravo to Gov. Herbert!
    No, I would say we have been losing our Rights since 1906 and the passage of the Antiquities Act that allows an Executive Order by the President of the US to seize property and turn it into a "NATIONAL MONUMENT".

    The progressives have been at this for a LOOOOONG time!
    RIGHTS don't exist without RESPONSIBILITY!
    If one is not willing to stand for his rights, he doesn't have any Rights.
    I will strive to stand for the rights of ANY person, even those folks with whom I disagree!
    As said by SVG--- "I am not anti-COP, I am PRO-Citizen" and I'll add, PRO-Constitution.
    If the above makes me a RADICAL or EXTREME--- So be it!

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