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Thread: Could an Illinois "fanny pack movement" lead to gun carry reform?

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    http://www.icarry.org/article467.html

    What do you think?

    An Illinois fanny pack movement could be sort of an analog to the California unloaded Open Carry movement which apparently aims to convince the voters and legislature thrt california should have normal gun carry rights, e.g., the right to carry loaded handguns concealed or openly throughout California, as is the practice in the vast majority of states today.

    Under Illinois law can cases containing unloaded guns be transparent so others could see the gun? Can a magazine of ammunition be kept in the case with the gun?

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    Under Illinois law can cases containing unloaded guns be transparent so others could see the gun? Can a magazine of ammunition be kept in the case with the gun?
    First question: The statute does not contain any requirement as color or transparency.

    (iii) are unloaded and enclosed in a case, firearm carrying box, shipping box, or other container by a person who has been issued a currently valid Firearm Owner's Identification Card]

    Second question: Yes, ammunition can be with the firearm. The ammunition or magazine can not be in the gun but can be in the same case.

    Although the Illinois wildlife code defines a case more stringently, the Illinois Supreme Court reasoned that definition not applicable since the issues did not involve activities covered under the wildlife code.

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    Regular Member Ivan Sample's Avatar
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    They should get of their ass and allow OC and carry conceal. All they doing is hurting the people that abide by the law. But still the criminal can go on as usual by victimizing the citizens. Maybe a criminal will think twice if OC and conceal permits were issue. Its a sad state to live in and others who don't allow their citizens to be armed.
    Capricorn

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    lockman wrote:
    Second question: Yes, ammunition can be with the firearm. The ammunition or magazine can not be in the gun but can be in the same case.
    Can you verify:

    1) An IL resident with a FOID card can carry an unloaded pistol in a briefcase (in public), with a loaded mag in the same case--as long as the mag isn't inserted into the pistol.

    2) Must the case be locked?

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    IllinoisSlave wrote:
    lockman wrote:
    Second question: Yes, ammunition can be with the firearm. The ammunition or magazine can not be in the gun but can be in the same case.
    Can you verify:

    1) An IL resident with a FOID card can carry an unloaded pistol in a briefcase (in public), with a loaded mag in the same case--as long as the mag isn't inserted into the pistol.

    2) Must the case be locked?
    1) Yes as long as you didn't open the briefcase. See Illinois v Duggens (I might have the spelling of Duggens wrong). It dealt with the definition of "other container" in reference to the center counsel of a car, but will address your question.

    2) No. See the ISP's firearms faq page at the link.

    http://www.isp.state.il.us/foid/firearmsfaq.cfm

    2)

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    Thanks Craig.

    So then you CAN even have a loaded mag in the case (as long as it isn't inserted into the pistol?).

    I'm going to start carrying that way, then (in a briefcase, say). I had earlier intended to do that--loaded--with the briefcase locked, since a search warrant would be required to search a locked case; and I would never present any grounds for a search warrant.

    But under these conditions, I'd carry unloaded and unlocked (and indeed, if one uses a combination lock, on can always spin the combo and make their case locked--for, say, a traffic stop, etc--just to make life easier).


    btw, I'm in southern IL (St. Clair county)

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    IL Slave:

    Why don't you buy a "day planner" style container, either one meant for a gun or a conventional one, and put your piece in there? That way you're not in violation of IL law by merely opening the briefcase.

    I've fanny packed for ten years now without incident or problem. Then again, I'm clean cut, physically fit and don't do stupid things.

    Cops outside of Chicagoland are pretty hip to the law. I carry a copy of IL law and the "How to" flyer from ISP as extra insurance though.

    John

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    Hi Templar,

    My thoughts just spring from my original plan to carry loaded in a non-carry state--by having a loaded pistol in a locked, hard case--which police have no business being interested in without cause for getting a warrant. (Like you, I present no "excuse" for police to hassle me--I'm 56 and my ONLY contact with police has been the very occasional speeding ticket).

    Now, with the idea that I'm closer to legal by just having a loaded mag NEXT to an unloaded pistol, I can re-think my entire strategy.

    Hopefully, I'm going to be moving within a year--and leave the serfdom of IL. I lived for years in upstate NY way back when, and had CC (I lived in Delaware county, one of the easiest to get CC--at least back in the late 70s).

    I want to get a Utah CC sometime soon, and then move to any of several western states I have in mind (probably Nevada). Then again, maybe the Supremes are going to step up and do the right thing--and maybe we'll have "shall issue" everywhere. What a day!!

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    A little more clarification: Could you carry a mouse gun, say the Ruger LCP, enclosed in it's little zip case, unloaded, with the mag in the case?

    As I read that pamphlet from the State Police, that appears to be fine.

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    I meant to say: carry that zipped LCP case with unloaded gun and mag inside the case IN YOUR FRONT POCKET.

    I hate the way fanny packs look, you see.

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    pastorcurtis wrote:
    I meant to say: carry that zipped LCP case with unloaded gun and mag inside the case IN YOUR FRONT POCKET.

    I hate the way fanny packs look, you see.
    Interesting idea (can't say much for your choice of pistol though--in some circles, Ruger is considered a poor supporter of gun rights).

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    I container carry in Illinois. There are plenty of optionss for you.

    A CCW day planner, a fanny pack, a maxpedition style bag (great to keep a first aid kit in), or smaller pouches worn on the hip (Elite CCW pouch, bulldog ccw cell phone holster, etc....).

    Container carrying is nowhere near as good as CCW, but it's better than leaving it at home.

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    TyGuy wrote:
    I container carry in Illinois. There are plenty of optionss for you.

    A CCW day planner, a fanny pack, a maxpedition style bag (great to keep a first aid kit in), or smaller pouches worn on the hip (Elite CCW pouch, bulldog ccw cell phone holster, etc....).

    Container carrying is nowhere near as good as CCW, but it's better than leaving it at home.
    Thanks for replying TyGuy. I'd just like to be ABSOLUTELY CERTAIN: Is everyone really positive that it's OK to have a loaded mag in the same case?

    I can't remember where I've come across this before, but I'm pretty sure that in at least some states, having a loaded (detached)mag is "considered" to be having the gun itself loaded. IIRC, I think New York has that rule--I don't think you can have a loaded mag in the same case as a gun, and even carry them in your car (I DO know that you can have a loaded mag in your HAND and drive around with an unloaded gun in your car in NY, because I've done it a million times while driving between hunting places).

    Hmm...and that makes me wonder: I wonder if it might be considered even MORE acceptable in IL if you had a loaded mag say, in your pocket, while having the empty pistol in its own case. If you really needed to use it, it might actually be faster to get the mag from your pocket than from the gun case.

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    I understand the hesitation, believe me I was there for about a year before I made the plunge. The fact that I used to teach in Cole hall just 1 year before the shooting there in 2008 finally pushed me over.

    Check out http://www.isp.state.il.us/foid/firearmsfaq.cfm





    Is it legal to have ammunition in the case with the firearm?

    Yes, so long as the firearm is unloaded and properly enclosed in a case.

    You can NOT have the magazine inserted, even if a round isn't chambered. Many people carry the mags on their weak side to retrieve the mag with the weak side hand while retrieving the pistol from the container on their strong side. I keep all my stuff together so that I can put the pack on and take it off knowing that everything is in there. No washing 380 auto in the laundry that way.

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    Cool. I think having the mag in a pocket, etc., seems handier than in the case.

    Still, I don't think I'm making myself clear on my one doubt. I'll state it directly: I have somehow gotten it in my head that some states declare a gun to be loaded when a LOADED, but nevertheless DETACHED, magazine is in the same case as the gun.

    The way the confusion arises is from laws that mightstate something like: "The cased weapon shall be unloaded in both chamber and magazine." Then, it gets interpreted as meaning the mag can't have ammo in it even if it's not inserted in the gun.

    Sure, from any sensible point of view, if there's no round in the chamber, and the mag isn't even in the pistol, then the pistol is clearly unloaded. But I worry that some prosecutors have determined that since the mag is a PART of the pistol, and that mag is stuffed with ammo, then the pistol is "loaded" whether or not the mag is actually inserted. I have the impression (at least from the past--it's been 25 years since I lived in New York), that New York interprets their law that way.

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    Did you look at the link that I posted? It is the Illinois State Police saying that you can have the ammunition in the same case as the firearm. I will also say that there have been cases in Illinois where people were arrested for container carrying, but that the cases were eventually dismissed because it is legal.

    I can't say what NY does, sorry.

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    TyGuy wrote:
    Did you look at the link that I posted? It is the Illinois State Police saying that you can have the ammunition in the same case as the firearm. I will also say that there have been cases in Illinois where people were arrested for container carrying, but that the cases were eventually dismissed because it is legal.

    I can't say what NY does, sorry.

    Yes, I read the link (others have posted it). It says you can have the ammo in the same case. But that doesn't address the specific concern of having the ammo actually LOADED into a mag. As I've said, there IS some supportable logic behind the idea that since the mag is part of the gun, having the ammo in the MAG is equivalent to having the gun loaded--even if the mag isn't inserted.

    I suppose, if I really wanted to be technical about it, I could have an EMPTY mag in the pistol, and have an EXTRA, loaded mag around to. It's harder to refer to an ADDITIONAL mag as part of the gun, when there's already n empty mag IN the gun.


    Thanks for mentioning the case law about container carrying. That's the main point: if it's been adjudicated that it's legal, then there should be no problem.

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    OK, here's a very specific discussion of the topic, including references to case law. It states specifically that the mags can be loaded:

    http://www.icarry.org/content-3.html

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    Maybe this is a stupid question, but what is a foid card please
    Capricorn

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    Ivan Sample wrote:
    Maybe this is a stupid question, but what is a foid card please
    Firearm Owner's IDentification.

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    A FOID card is required to own a firearm in Illinois.

    As far as the mag thing goes: again people have been arrested in Illinois for container carrying, but have been acquitted. If it was illegal to have the magazine loaded, but not inserted then they would have been convicted. However, if you aren't comfortable carrying that way then you don't have to.

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    Regular Member Ivan Sample's Avatar
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    Thanks N6ATF for the definition of FOID
    Capricorn

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    TyGuy wrote:
    A FOID card is required to own a firearm in Illinois.

    As far as the mag thing goes: again people have been arrested in Illinois for container carrying, but have been acquitted. If it was illegal to have the magazine loaded, but not inserted then they would have been convicted. However, if you aren't comfortable carrying that way then you don't have to.
    The link I provided lists the cases where the precedents were set regarding container carry and loaded mags. That's good enough for me. I'm convinced that there is established legal precedent showing one can carry as has been described in this thread.

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    +1 IllinoisSlave

    However this is something that each Illinois firearm owner must answer on their own. Whether they want to container carry or not. Have a great weekend everyone.

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    We've been promoting the idea of container carry EVENTS for years. Thanks to the excellent work in Wisconsin with open carry events promoted by OpenCarry.org and WisconsinCarry.org - along with the virtue that ICarry.org encompasses both states - we've been able to show Illinois gun owners Wisconsin's fantastic example. We've been BRINGING Illinois gun owners up to Wisconsin for open carry.

    Right to carry knows no borders - and this is especially the case with Illinois and Wisconsin since we're the only 2 left without concealed carry provisions.

    You've hit the nail on the head, Mike. Container carry events will be very successful in Illinois. We've been trying very hard to get the other groups on board with this, and I hope that in time they will get on board by helping to encourage people to exercise their rights. There are some small local-based groups that will help us with these events, and then perhaps eventually the other larger groups will see how effective it is and get on board as well.

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