Carrying at gun shows?

This is actually relevant, since I'm about to leave in a few minutes to do some volunteer work at a VCDL table.

Yes, getting zip-tied is pretty normal. Welcome to private property.

I'm sure someone on here will gladly argue about how they can't do it, since it's at the fairgrounds.

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nova wrote:

longwatch wrote:

A dealer had one before the show started, he caught a fragment from the .25 in his leg. It was the last show of the year, last year.

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Oh ok I remember that one now.

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I remember that one, too. In fact, I heard it from inside. I was a bit unnerved by that.

I heard two versions of what may have happened. 1) That a vendor's personal handgun was placed on the table for a moment; someone doing some 'early' shopping picked it up and pulled the trigger. 2) The gun was part of a collection being sold from an estate; it was never checked; someone doing some 'early' shopping picked it up and pulled the trigger. At least it was pointed at the floor (not that there's even any safe place to point a firearm in there).

The rule prohibiting loaded firearms at the show does a little harm in that many people assume that every gun they pick up is already unloaded. Some of these are people who know the basic safety rule that all firearms are loaded until you have checked it yourself; but they automatically forget about that when they're told by a sign that the guns are unloaded and that there are no exceptions.

I've also seen many firearms on tables that have zip-ties on them, but could still potentially have a round in the chamber. The only thing the zip-tie appears to do on some of these firearms is prevent you from being able to check whether it's loaded or not. Nevertheless, there's no shortage of people pulling those triggers without check for themselves that the firearm is unloaded.

They ought to have a "NO TRIGGER PULLING" rule.

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AbNo wrote:

This is actually relevant, since I'm about to leave in a few minutes to do some volunteer work at a VCDL table.

Yes, getting zip-tied is pretty normal. Welcome to private property.

I'm sure someone on here will gladly argue about how they can't do it, since it's at the fairgrounds.

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As I understand it, most "No Trespassing" signs in Virginia hold little weight (despite the letter of the law) and in reality a direct (usually verbal) request for the person to leave must be ignored for that person to be charged with trespassing. Correct me if I'm wrong.

This is the reason that many people CC in places like, say, Springfield Mall, despite their knowing the mall has a firearms prohibition. 'Concealed means concealed', and as long as they leave when asked in the unlikely event their CC is discovered, they are at no risk of legal penally.

Now, I'm asking this question out of genuine curiosity. What makes the signs at a gunshow different? Can one really be arrested for trespassing if one is discovered with a loaded gun, without being given a chance to leave?

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The rule prohibiting loaded firearms at the show does a little harm in that many people assume that every gun they pick up is already unloaded. Some of these are people who know the basic safety rule that all firearms are loaded until you have checked it yourself; but they automatically forget about that when they're told by a sign that the guns are unloaded and that there are no exceptions.

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They ought to have a "NO TRIGGER PULLING" rule.

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marshaul wrote:

AbNo wrote:

This is actually relevant, since I'm about to leave in a few minutes to do some volunteer work at a VCDL table.

Yes, getting zip-tied is pretty normal. Welcome to private property.

I'm sure someone on here will gladly argue about how they can't do it, since it's at the fairgrounds.

Click to expand...

As I understand it, most "No Trespassing" signs in Virginia hold little weight (despite the letter of the law) and in reality a direct (usually verbal) request for the person to leave must be ignored for that person to be charged with trespassing. Correct me if I'm wrong.

This is the reason that many people CC in places like, say, Springfield Mall, despite their knowing the mall has a firearms prohibition. 'Concealed means concealed', and as long as they leave when asked in the unlikely event their CC is discovered, they are at no risk of legal penally.

Now, I'm asking this question out of genuine curiosity. What makes the signs at a gunshow different? Can one really be arrested for trespassing if one is discovered with a loaded gun, without being given a chance to leave?

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I'm curious about this as well. There was a recent thread posted here on OCDO that explained the result of a recent VA sup. Court case about posting property, the outcome saying what you just posted...that you have to verbally be asked to leave and you refuse before being able to be charged. Signs have no weight.

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... And as for fairgrounds, I am not aware of a single county fairground that is owned by the county - just as the State Fair grounds are not owned by the state. If I'm wrong would someone please show me the documentation?

stay safe.

skidmark

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ChinChin wrote:

I see at least 5 to 6 guys walking around each show with fully loaded firearms on their belts. They're not trying to hide the fact that they have loaded firearms on their belts, so I guess the "no loaded firearms, no exceptions" sign is a suggestion.

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And I see plenty who are in uniform but aren't there as police either...I've seen Falls Church PD and even Secret Service Uniformed Division people there. No exceptions my @$$.

(I'm not saying they shouldn't get to carry, I'm saying the show policy is bull and is not applied to everyone.)

That said, the police that are there as police are friendly, both local and state.

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nova wrote:

ChinChin wrote:

I see at least 5 to 6 guys walking around each show with fully loaded firearms on their belts. They're not trying to hide the fact that they have loaded firearms on their belts, so I guess the "no loaded firearms, no exceptions" sign is a suggestion.

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And I see plenty who are in uniform but aren't there as police either...I've seen Falls Church PD and even Secret Service Uniformed Division people there. No exceptions my @$$.

(I'm not saying they shouldn't get to carry, I'm saying the show policy is bull and is not applied to everyone.)

That said, the police that are there as police are friendly, both local and state.

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Why are they there as police? Unless there is a crime being comitted or they are there as part of an ongoing investigation they don't have a reason to be there in an official capacity. . .I'd hazzard to bet they are moonlighting and being paid by the promoters or building owners to be security and asked to be in their uniforms. That or they should be out protecting and servingbut are shoppers like the rest of us peons.

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ChinChin wrote:

nova wrote:

ChinChin wrote:

I see at least 5 to 6 guys walking around each show with fully loaded firearms on their belts. They're not trying to hide the fact that they have loaded firearms on their belts, so I guess the "no loaded firearms, no exceptions" sign is a suggestion.

Click to expand...

And I see plenty who are in uniform but aren't there as police either...I've seen Falls Church PD and even Secret Service Uniformed Division people there. No exceptions my @$$.

(I'm not saying they shouldn't get to carry, I'm saying the show policy is bull and is not applied to everyone.)

That said, the police that are there as police are friendly, both local and state.

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Why are they there as police? Unless there is a crime being comitted or they are there as part of an ongoing investigation they don't have a reason to be there in an official capacity. . .I'd hazzard to bet they are moonlighting and being paid by the promoters or building owners to be security and asked to be in their uniforms. That or they should be out protecting and servingbut are shoppers like the rest of us peons.

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Your response makes it seem that you have a very narrow view of the potential duties of law enforcement.

Maybe they are serving a warrant, a summons or a protective order.

They could be there doing research because their department is thinking about changing duty weapons. No better place to do research and get a feel for a thousand different guns than at a gun show.

Perhaps the department is in need of ammo and their supplier is out. Those officers could be purchasing ammo for AQ.

Maybe an officer has a damaged piece of equipment that occured while on patrol and his department authorized him to run over to the gun show and buy a new whatever.

There are lots of possibilities that fall under "official duties" and that don't involve a crime in progress or conducting an investigation.

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ChinChin wrote:

nova wrote:

ChinChin wrote:

I see at least 5 to 6 guys walking around each show with fully loaded firearms on their belts.  They're not trying to hide the fact that they have loaded firearms on their belts, so I guess the "no loaded firearms, no exceptions" sign is a suggestion.

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And I see plenty who are in uniform but aren't there as police either...I've seen Falls Church PD and even Secret Service Uniformed Division people there. No exceptions my @$$.

(I'm not saying they shouldn't get to carry, I'm saying the show policy is bull and is not applied to everyone.)

That said, the police that are there as police are friendly, both local and state.

Click to expand...

Why are they there as police? Unless there is a crime being comitted or they are there as part of an ongoing investigation they don't have a reason to be there in an official capacity. . .I'd hazzard to bet they are moonlighting and being paid by the promoters or building owners to be security and asked to be in their uniforms.   That or they should be out protecting and serving but are shoppers like the rest of us peons.

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Your response makes it seem that you have a very narrow view of the potential duties of law enforcement.

Maybe they are serving a warrant, a summons or a protective order.

They could be there doing research because their department is thinking about changing duty weapons. No better place to do research and get a feel for a thousand different guns than at a gun show.

Perhaps the department is in need of ammo and their supplier is out. Those officers could be purchasing ammo for AQ.

Maybe an officer has a damaged piece of equipment that occured while on patrol and his department authorized him to run over to the gun show and buy a new whatever.

There are lots of possibilities that fall under "official duties" and that don't involve a crime in progress or conducting an investigation.

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ProShooter wrote:

ChinChin wrote:

nova wrote:

ChinChin wrote:

I see at least 5 to 6 guys walking around each show with fully loaded firearms on their belts. They're not trying to hide the fact that they have loaded firearms on their belts, so I guess the "no loaded firearms, no exceptions" sign is a suggestion.

Click to expand...

And I see plenty who are in uniform but aren't there as police either...I've seen Falls Church PD and even Secret Service Uniformed Division people there. No exceptions my @$$.

(I'm not saying they shouldn't get to carry, I'm saying the show policy is bull and is not applied to everyone.)

That said, the police that are there as police are friendly, both local and state.

Click to expand...

Why are they there as police? Unless there is a crime being comitted or they are there as part of an ongoing investigation they don't have a reason to be there in an official capacity. . .I'd hazzard to bet they are moonlighting and being paid by the promoters or building owners to be security and asked to be in their uniforms. That or they should be out protecting and servingbut are shoppers like the rest of us peons.

Click to expand...

Your response makes it seem that you have a very narrow view of the potential duties of law enforcement.

Maybe they are serving a warrant, a summons or a protective order.

They could be there doing research because their department is thinking about changing duty weapons. No better place to do research and get a feel for a thousand different guns than at a gun show.

Perhaps the department is in need of ammo and their supplier is out. Those officers could be purchasing ammo for AQ.

Maybe an officer has a damaged piece of equipment that occured while on patrol and his department authorized him to run over to the gun show and buy a new whatever.

There are lots of possibilities that fall under "official duties" and that don't involve a crime in progress or conducting an investigation.

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I can't speak for ChinChin, but when he posed his question, the officers that I assumed he was discussing were the ones who appear to be working the check-in tables, or otherwise hanging out at the front entrance to the event. I don't recall ever seeing uniformed local or VSP officers actually in the venue "shopping", so to speak. If I saw an officer actually shopping, I would assume that is what he or she were doing, for whatever reason, official or personal. I think the question is who is paying those folks to work the check-in tables, or to stand around there chatting with those who are.

I don't think it's a big deal, I just think he was asking a different question than you answered.

TFred

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TFred - you may be correct, but I was going under the assumption from his
statement that these officers were not manning a post per se, since he said that
they were "walking around".

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I'll use the last Chantilly show as the primary example of what I am curious about.

There was one uniformed officer (agency not clear) who was working with the Jersey-haired lady at the left side of the entryway where one clears their gun and gets it zipped tied. The several times I walked by he was constantly there and obviously "working."

I saw 3 different VA State po-po walking through the rows of vendor tables in full uniform looking over various firearms, watched them handle a few and saw the third reviewing up close and personal a selection of folder knives.

None of these officers had their radio's on and none of them had any sort of earbud to indicate they could hear any call which might come across a radio at any particular time.

This leads me to believe one of two possibilities:

1) They were on-duty but for whatever reason assigned to work the gun show in the event somebody got stupid; and figured while they were there they would take advantage of deals to be found.

2) They were off-duty and hired by the owners of the building or the promoters of the show to act in a security capacity and be in full uniform; and figured while they were there they would take advantage of deals to be found.

If the 1st situation is the case then I would be curious as to why uniformed officers would be present in a limited defined geographic area (1 building and the grounds) to police what has statistically a low crime event.

If the 2nd situation is the case then I would be curious as to why off-duty officers would be exempt from the restriction asked of the rest of the population to not have loaded firearms or loaded magazines on their person while in attendance of the gunshow?

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ChinChin wrote:

I'll use the last Chantilly show as the primary example of what I am curious about.

There was one uniformed officer (agency not clear) who was working with the Jersey-haired lady at the left side of the entryway where one clears their gun and gets it zipped tied. The several times I walked by he was constantly there and obviously "working."

I saw 3 different VA State po-po walking through the rows of vendor tables in full uniform looking over various firearms, watched them handle a few and saw the third reviewing up close and personal a selection of folder knives.

None of these officers had their radio's on and none of them had any sort of earbud to indicate they could hear any call which might come across a radio at any particular time.

This leads me to believe one of two possibilities:

1) They were on-duty but for whatever reason assigned to work the gun show in the event somebody got stupid; and figured while they were there they would take advantage of deals to be found.

2) They were off-duty and hired by the owners of the building or the promoters of the show to act in a security capacity and be in full uniform; and figured while they were there they would take advantage of deals to be found.

If the 1st situation is the case then I would be curious as to why uniformed officers would be present in a limited defined geographic area (1 building and the grounds) to police what has statistically a low crime event.

If the 2nd situation is the case then I would be curious as to why off-duty officers would be exempt from the restriction asked of the rest of the population to not have loaded firearms or loaded magazines on their person while in attendance of the gunshow?

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well to begin with im 98% sure that VSP po-po as you refer to them are not allowed to work security in uniform unless authorized by the higher ups. IE requested by the promoter or county.

As for them walking around did you consider that they might be there on duty to make arrests on people that denied purchasing firearms. As well as checking products being sold by vendors like the ones that sell brass knuckles and switchblades.

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1) Being denied authorization during the dial-in background check is not a crime. People get denied due to the vendor misreading information provided, because the individual's name or SSL is *close* to a flagged person. It's not that uncommon. Now if the person has an active warrant and tried to purchase a firearm, that is a different story, but in all the years of attending the Chantilly shows, I've yet to see anbody being led out in handcuffs for anything.

2) I must admit I *did not* consider the VSP may be there to make sure no brass knuckles and/or switchblades were being sold. At the risk of answering a question with a question, can you help me to understand how that investigation would be aided by having a VSP office pick up and exam for 15 minutes an M1 Garand? How doesthat examination of a M1 help to ensure no vendor is selling a set of brass knuckles or a switchblade?

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