"Open Carry" exposes a lot of what's wrong in the gun community

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sonofsy wrote:

I carry concealed, and am intrigued by the passion for open carry. I get the argument about open carry normalizing gun ownership, and the political argument about strengthening the 2A constituency. But from a public policy standpoint, why do we want people walking around with guns?

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Oops! Bit of a contradiction there... I'll answer your question though. I carry a weapon openly to SCARE CRIMINALS out of comitting a crime against me, my family, or those near me. It shouldn't be frowned upon, it should be appreciated. You carry concealed (so you say) so what's the difference?

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There really aren't any stats on whether gun ownership deters crime. (Don't give me John Lott; he's been discredited. The consensus among non-advocate academics, from Kleck on one side to Hemenway on the other, is that concealed carry doesn't appreciably affect crime one way or the other.) Any advantage to open carry, i.e. discouraging crime, is no doubt offset by the disadvantage, i.e. guns readily to hand in a road-rage, domestic abuse, or other ugly situation.

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Guns will be carried no matter what... People are people. You can walk anywhere you want with your gun legally or illegally, your point is not holding any water, while at the same time you're dis-crediting non-existant stats about legal gun ownership... It does deter crime, when someone breaks into a home and the owner defends themselves with deadly force, any future crimes to come from that break in have been ended. Open minded thinking get's you a long way, you should try it.

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So let's call that a wash. Aside from the political utility of open carry, what's the public good in open carry?
It's an honest question, and I'd appreciate a civilized answer, without a lot of the infantile name-calling that gives firearms enthusiasts a bad name. Thanks.

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There is plenty of public good... We take a huge responsibility to protect others around us if a crime is committed that requires lethal force. Really, all BS aside, conceal carry and open carry are one in the same, WE ARE ALL CARRYING A FIREARM!

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what? me open carry?

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HankT wrote:

kwikrnu wrote:

If one likes to open carry there is nogroup or organizationto support. The NRA does not support open carry. Local organizations in Tennessee like the TFA don't support open carry. Most all gun websites do not support legal open carry ( I have been banned on nearly all of them because I dared open carry and challenged unlawful detainments). I think opencarry.org and calguns.net are the only web forums which are pro open carry.

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Which forums/sites have you been banned from?

On those forums/sites have other members not been banned who alsopracticed OCing and who challenged unlawful detainments?

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Not particularly wanting to name websites, but I belong to a few that Kwik was banned from. I practice OC and I challenge any police action that could be unlawful. I've been called a cop hater, just as Kwik. The only difference is that I have not preformed the "hated deeds" Kwik has preformed (all perfectly legal).

I can not attest that Kwik didn't violate some other rules of those websites that resulted in those bans, but I have not read anything that would lead me to believe such.

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no permit needed to carry in Michigan. maybe you should come back to visit lol.

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This is why I love Alaska. I need no permit to open carry or conceal carry. It is also not unusual at all to see OC and the Leos have no problem with it and will actually stand there and discuss why they like one pistol over another and what type they OC when they are off duty.

My kids cant wait till they are old enough to OC, and gun ownership does deter crime. When Gov. Bush passed the concealed weapon permit law for citizens in Texas, violent crimes in Texas went Down.

Also, why bash the ones that like to OC or CC? We are all Americans and are trying to protect our rights that are guaranteed by our Constitution. Shouldnt we be working together to keep our rights and not bashing, name calling and trolling just for a reaction?

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shootemup wrote:

You OCers a kooks.

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This from someone childish enough to choose the handle "shootemup" andso confused they joined a forum called "OpenCarry.org" to share the above opinion. Thank you sir. Hurry along now, as the short buswill be pulling off momentarily...

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sonofsy wrote:

I carry concealed, and am intrigued by the passion for open carry. I get the argument about open carry normalizing gun ownership, and the political argument about strengthening the 2A constituency. But from a public policy standpoint, why do we want people walking around with guns? There really aren't any stats on whether gun ownership deters crime. (Don't give me John Lott; he's been discredited. The consensus among non-advocate academics, from Kleck on one side to Hemenway on the other, is that concealed carry doesn't appreciably affect crime one way or the other.) Any advantage to open carry, i.e. discouraging crime, is no doubt offset by the disadvantage, i.e. guns readily to hand in a road-rage, domestic abuse, or other ugly situation. So let's call that a wash. Aside from the political utility of open carry, what's the public good in open carry?
It's an honest question, and I'd appreciate a civilized answer, without a lot of the infantile name-calling that gives firearms enthusiasts a bad name. Thanks.

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"Public good" has been used to place more shackles on the necks of free Americans than any other words. While many here will state they are more than willing to usetheir guns to help others, the RTKB is guaranteed to the individual. If I chose to exercise my right I am not doing sofor the "public". I am doing itfor myself. I won't say I would not try to help others, I would.

I also wonder what proof you might have that OC vs. CC would lead to more road rage, domestic abuse, or other ugly situations?

I hope this has been civil enough for you. I also hope you are more than a one post attacker, which in my opinion give honest people a bad name

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Just in general, to the whole topic of discussion, beginning to now...



I don't care if you OC or CC. I support the right.

I don't care if you carry a Glock 30, a Springfield XD, a Kimber 1911, a S&W LCR, a Taurus Judge, an M1 Carbine, a Remington 870, etc, etc, etc.

I don't care if you keep a 9mm, .22LR, 10mm, .410, .44 cap and ball, 12 gauge, .223, .45, .30-06. Heck, you can shoot spuds if you'd rather.

As long as you do not use these tools AGAINST your fellow citizens unlawfully, they are yours and ours. I do not believe in punishing those who have not committed a crime.

I understand the purpose of this website, and I believe, the reasons behind it.

I do find it ironic that many who cry sheeple, when a non-armed civilian is alarmed by a handgun, are equally alarmed by another citizen who carries a rifle.

Honestly... if the public at large sees an AR-15 carried daily, and realize that it has caused no harm, they will probably no longer raise eyebrows at holstered handguns strapped tight on a hip. Obviously that is not the goal of those here, but it is a point.

If there are those of you who CC, please remember that yours is still just a privilege by law, and if you fail to support the 2nd amendment rights practiced by others, you may well lose yours, too.



What I mean to say in entirety is, value and support the rights of all American Citizens, whether you choose to exercise your own or not. Support the rule of Law, and ensure that those laws uphold our Liberty.

As I've heard before, we can all stand together, or we can all hang separately.

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sonofsy wrote:

I carry concealed, and am intrigued by the passion for open carry. I get the argument about open carry normalizing gun ownership, and the political argument about strengthening the 2A constituency. But from a public policy standpoint, why do we want people walking around with guns? There really aren't any stats on whether gun ownership deters crime. (Don't give me John Lott; he's been discredited. The consensus among non-advocate academics, from Kleck on one side to Hemenway on the other, is that concealed carry doesn't appreciably affect crime one way or the other.) Any advantage to open carry, i.e. discouraging crime, is no doubt offset by the disadvantage, i.e. guns readily to hand in a road-rage, domestic abuse, or other ugly situation. So let's call that a wash. Aside from the political utility of open carry, what's the public good in open carry?
It's an honest question, and I'd appreciate a civilized answer, without a lot of the infantile name-calling that gives firearms enthusiasts a bad name. Thanks.

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"Why do we want people walking around with guns?" Yet you said you concealed carry. So which is it? If you don't want people walking around with guns, start the movement by leaving yours at home.

"There really aren't any stats on whether gun ownership deters crime." That's a load of hooey. Thirty years ago, crime was at a high andgun ownership laws were at a low. As the gun ownership/carry laws improved crime has declined.

In England, the relationship holds true - as gun control has increased, crime has increased as well.

In Switzarland, where every able-bodied man owns a fully-automatic assault rifle, crime is exceedingly low.

Open carry is a deterrent. Criminals usually observe a place before they hit it, and if customers who frequent the place routinely open carry, you can be rest assured the criminal will either find a softer target, if not rethink the idea of searching harder for a job.

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SanFranShootr wrote:

Some 40 years ago I had an all-expense paid vacation in Vietnam as a member of the 5th Special Forces. On the few occasions when I had the opportunity to visit restaurants and coffee shops (sorry there were no Starbucks) in Saigon, I did not OC a sidearm.

I would argue that Saigon in 1968-1971 was a much more dangerous place than most cities in America circa 2010.

I suggest that OCers man-up and brave the wilds of Starbucks and Walmart sans their favorite .44Mag sidearm.

If you continue to be nervous and paranoid in public without a sidearm, my recommendation would be to have your mommy hold your hand.

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I call BS on this. No offense intended if you are who you say you are, and I appreciate your service, but you've been with the hippy movement too long in Frisco.

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I'm a retired LEO. I carried 'OPEN' for 31 yrs. as an Officer.
I retired a couple of years ago, and I still carry 'OPEN'.

I can carry on the badge, but I maintain a concealed carry permit also. In Alabama you need a Concealed Carry Permit,for Open Carry in a motor vehicle. Open Carry in Alabama is not everything it should be, but it's better than a few other states. There are Officers in every state who don't know the laws about Open Carry. There are Officers who know the law but refuse to follow the law. These knuckle heads are the reason I still carry 'Open'...

FWIW: If it looks like a 'Gang Banger', talks like a 'Gang Banger' and dresses like a 'Gang Banger' the average LEO is going to call for additional help and put them on the ground. If you dress like the average citizen and act like the average citizen, there is a better than average chance that most folks, Officers included, will either not notice your gun, or not be overly concerned.

The stupidest comment ever made to me was...
"Do you know that you have on a gun???"
Then that little ole lady asked if it was a Glock I was carrying? (She at least knew her guns)

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Ole Man Dan wrote:

The stupidest comment ever made to me was...
"Do you know that you have on a gun???"

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Here is what Bill Engvall would've said, as he looked down at the gun in utter surprise:

No. My mommy dressed me this morning, and I hadn't noticed the gun

Heeere's yer sign.

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There have been people that are concerned with the fact that carrying, without the proven ability to act safely, with a firearm, ie a course is warranted. To that I say, "Are there no unskilled people in Vermont?". There seems to be no problems, at least none that I know of there. I would have no problem carrying concealed, to avoid the fact of making people nervous, if I could do so without granting the government the illusion that they have the right, to regulate my rights. To those that feel that you only have the rights that society allows, you must understand that we are a republic, and consequently have inalienable rights. They cannot be voted away by a majority. If one is arrested, for whatever reason, the jury has the right to nullify the law. There have been supreme court justices in the past, that have stated that it is not just your right, but your duty, to do so. The jury, is the only check and balance, to the judiciary branch of the government. The jury can nullify any decisions by the Suprem Court. How's that for a powerful right?. There was a Supreme Court decision sometime in the late 60s, or early 70s, that made it unlawful for any officer of the court, to make the jury aware of this right.Even though there have been renewed efforts to eliminate it, it still exists, to prevent abusive governments from unjustly jailing those who dissagree with them.

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It wouldn't matter if we were a dictatorship, our rights are not determined by other men, you are born free. We're supposed to live in a society of retribution where the state handles punishments for violations against individuals rights. In other words, you can do whatever you want until what you're doing causes direct pain and suffering to another individual, i.e. you punch someone in the nose because they said your mom's fat, that's when the law steps in and punishes you for violating the right of the other individual not to be punched in the nose by you. Unfortunately we've allowed the government to attempt "prevention" by restricting our rights and telling us what we can and can't do. The fact that we have "intent" laws is disturbing because they're not based on what you've done, but what the government thinks you're going to do, i.e. that guy who was arrested by a swat team because he bought multiple guns at one time after being fired. That guy could've been going to the range to blow off steam, but we'll never know because the cops seized the guy and his property.

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Mr.FiredUp wrote:

Sigh... same old bashing on OC. Anybody know why the sight of a gun scares people? (raises hand) I do! Pick ME! It's because nobody sees them anymore! I know nobody in my family or my close friends would look twice at a guy with a gun on his hip except to admire what he was carrying and wish we had one because we are used to seeing them.

I don't wanna be a big bad man, I'm not trying to prove something, I don't have a sense of superiority, and I am in no way being immature.

Being immature would be joining a forum that supports open carry, bashing open carry, and doing this all with the name "shootemup". With a name like that, you HAVE to be a mature, intelligent and safe gun owner. (please note sarcasm Mr. "shootemup"... Sarcasm is when someone says something they don't really mean in a way that... oh never mind, you wouldn't get it even if I explained it):banghead:

If lots of people open carry, this would become a normal aspect of life. Therefore, removing the fear of the weapon and replacing it with respect. This would also make it more difficult for anti-gun people to make laws that would take away the guns that you "oh so wise" CC only fellas care about so dearly.

If the law abiding public no longer have an irrational fear of other law abiding citizens carrying guns, what do the anti's have to use as leverage to get these laws past?

Did I go to fast for ya'?

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You mean like, the fact I work at convenience store and mentioned to my manager I was shocked that in the upper class area we serve someone was willing to open carry. He proceeded to flip out and ask if I had called the cops yet, I had to educate him on the fact open carry is legal in OH and that we aren't posted at the door or anywhere in the front windows. Also, the lack of him pointing said gun at me and asking for all our money made me assume he meant no harm as he was getting smokes and left. Manager using Google found out what I already knew about it being legal.
It is amazing me how many of my customers are "extremist gun nuts", finding out a far number of people are CCing and those the ones I want around if my life depends on it because company policy forbids me having a weapon on company property even if it is in my car. Taking class to get a CC permit so I can drive with loaded clips when I target shoot, now looking for new job so I can keep my gun in my car. Also, sucks I work 3rd shift and my company removed my RIGHT to defend myself. Honestly, I love the company policy to cooperate to all demands in robbery, but I can't open the safe.

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One of these guys was a roommate in college. As for the other guy, I've never seen hide nor hair of him in my entire life.

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boredstudent wrote:

You mean like, the fact I work at convenience store and mentioned to my manager I was shocked that in the upper class area we serve someone was willing to open carry. He proceeded to flip out and ask if I had called the cops yet, I had to educate him on the fact open carry is legal in OH and that we aren't posted at the door or anywhere in the front windows. Also, the lack of him pointing said gun at me and asking for all our money made me assume he meant no harm as he was getting smokes and left. Manager using Google found out what I already knew about it being legal.
It is amazing me how many of my customers are "extremist gun nuts", finding out a far number of people are CCing and those the ones I want around if my life depends on it because company policy forbids me having a weapon on company property even if it is in my car. Taking class to get a CC permit so I can drive with loaded clips when I target shoot, now looking for new job so I can keep my gun in my car. Also, sucks I work 3rd shift and my company removed my RIGHT to defend myself. Honestly, I love the company policy to cooperate to all demands in robbery, but I can't open the safe.

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Exactly. And the fact that the third time this happens, particularly with a repeat customer who has come to gain the storeowner's trust, it ceases to be "extreme gun nuts" and starts becoming "oh, you mean you carry a firearm?" In response, "yes - why wouldn't I given the nature of the situation out there - crime is reduced, but it's not eliminated by any means."

Personally, Ithink it's time to "adopt" a business. Some key hurdles, and key ingredients, though:

1. You would have had to do business with them regularly before you carried, and now whether you're carrying or not.

2. They would have to both appreciate your customership, as well as, if not more (most) importantly, who you are as a person, dedicated to the community, willing involvement with local law enforcement. That takes rapport, beginning with you! Be yourself! Just open up and be honest - you'd be surprised at how many people open up to a person who knows who they are.

3. To keep from being labled as avigilante, you'd have to simply not dress the part, not carry yourself as the part, and avoid any situation in which someone might paint you out to be the vigilante.

Good luck, all!

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sonofsy wrote:

I carry concealed, and am intrigued by the passion for open carry. I get the argument about open carry normalizing gun ownership, and the political argument about strengthening the 2A constituency. But from a public policy standpoint, why do we want people walking around with guns? There really aren't any stats on whether gun ownership deters crime. (Don't give me John Lott; he's been discredited. The consensus among non-advocate academics, from Kleck on one side to Hemenway on the other, is that concealed carry doesn't appreciably affect crime one way or the other.) Any advantage to open carry, i.e. discouraging crime, is no doubt offset by the disadvantage, i.e. guns readily to hand in a road-rage, domestic abuse, or other ugly situation. So let's call that a wash. Aside from the political utility of open carry, what's the public good in open carry?
It's an honest question, and I'd appreciate a civilized answer, without a lot of the infantile name-calling that gives firearms enthusiasts a bad name. Thanks.

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It is my experience that those who do OC would NEVER pull out their sidearm in anger or in a case of "road-rage". I honestly believe this is a form or irrational fear.

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sonofsy wrote:

I carry concealed, and am intrigued by the passion for open carry. I get the argument about open carry normalizing gun ownership, and the political argument about strengthening the 2A constituency. But from a public policy standpoint, why do we want people walking around with guns? The real question is: "Why is there a problem with law abiding people carrying guns regardless of whether the gun can be seen... or not?"There really aren't any stats on whether gun ownership deters crime. (Don't give me John Lott; he's been discredited. The consensus among non-advocate academics, from Kleck on one side to Hemenway on the other, is that concealed carry doesn't appreciably affect crime one way or the other. And that is easily explained since, to a criminal, someone carrying concealed looks exactly like someone who doesn't have a gun... and is easy prey.. so of course there wouldn't be any difference in crime stats between unarmed and concealed carrying folks since they all look the same and the bad guy will attack both.) Any advantage to open carry, i.e. discouraging crime, is no doubt offset by the disadvantage, i.e. guns readily to hand in a road-rage, domestic abuse, or other ugly situation. So let's call that a wash. Let's not call it a "wash" since you are assuming that open carry will result in road rage, domestic abuse, or other ugly situations... you are aware that those are the very same arguments posed by the antis against concealed carry that ended up not coming true? And isn't a concealed gun almost as much "readily to hand" as an open carry gun? Please think your argument through. Aside from the political utility of open carry, what's the public good in open carry?

The so called "public good" of open carry is that it notifies criminals that there are a whole bunch of folks carrying guns... because the criminal can see the gun with his/her own eyes. But, while concealed carry allows fraidy cat weenies to "feel" safe because they can't see a gun... and allows concealed carriers to think they have a mythical "tactical advantage" with a hidden gun.... it actually puts concealed carriers in just as much jeopardy from bad guy attacks because the concealed carrier with a hidden gun looks exactly like all the unarmed prey... but open carry actually does make people safer, even the people in the general vicinity of an open carrier... because the bad guy saw his intended prey was capable of using a gun to resist an attack and went to commit his crime somewhere else... where there aren't any guns in plain sight.

It's an honest question, and I'd appreciate a civilized answer, without a lot of the infantile name-calling that gives firearms enthusiasts a bad name. Thanks.

I gave an honest answer... you are welcome.

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