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Thread: Question from Dave Workman's book.....

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    So I have been reading through Dave Workman's book (I know you're a forum member here). I read through the traffic stop section and read the part were it talks about surrendering your pistol to an officer. Under the paragraph labeled "A word of caution" it says that "You are under no legal obligation to surrender your pistol to that officer."

    Now this is completely the opposite of what I thought had to happen. I was under the impression that if you are pulled over for a traffic stop and asked to step out of the car that you are sort of being detained. Subsequently if you are asked to surrender your pistol for officer safety, you have to give it up.

    I love the book so far and understand that it is not legal advice. I appreciate it very much for what it is, good sound advice. Thanks, and please discuss.

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    Regular Member OrangeIsTrouble's Avatar
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    My advice, don't consent to anything that you are not legally required to do, if the officer wants to disarm you, DON'T touch your weapon, let him/her remove it, that way they are responsible for any outcome such as accidental discharge or whatever.



    Resist verbally (be careful with tone of voice, nothing threatening), don't resist physically. Your day in court will come.





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    Steve,

    As you know I am no lawyer.

    I believe the intent of that statement is under the idea that you are not being charged with a crime then you have no legal obligation to surrender your firearm. Obviously, if the officer has reasonable suspicion then that's another story.

    Now, you can split hairs but here's the grey area. If an officer feels that their safety is in question in questioning anyone they will often ask to take your firearm to make them feel safer.

    As Poosharker mentioned don't make any physical move but do verbally say your rights. The officer may ormay not (most likely will take your firearm) but that istheir choice.Againas Poosharker mentioned you can file charges later.

    For the immediate situationdo not make any movement but again let them know you protest them taking your firearm. Let the situation cool down andlater file your concerns with theappropriate venue.

    Hope this helps and see you next time.
    Young Kim, NRA Endowment Member
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    Regular Member Beretta92FSLady's Avatar
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    Workman could have been a bit more detailed about the statement that he made...if that is in fact what he stated. You have no obligation to willfully surrender your handgun...that being said, if the officer demands to take the handgun from you for whatever reason, you let him do it. If he was in the wrong for disarming you, there will be rammifications for his unlawful action.

    Officers have a way of getting you to give them the OK to take your handgun, even if it is temporary. They will ask you, and most people don't realize that they are giving the officer the OK, because of course, we have nothing to hide....but if we give them the OK, they have the right to disarm us, to search us etc. if we give them the OK.

    I always look at it this way. If the officer is asking me if he/she can do something, he/she has no probable cause or legal right to do it which is why he/she is asking for my consent. YOU MUST verbalize that you object. But, if the officer decides anyhow to disarm you, allow the officer to do what he/she feels is his/her job to do. The legality of the action taken can be sorted out later.

    Scenero:

    Officer pulls Sylvia over. Officer asks Sylvia to step out of the vehicle. Sylvia steps out of the vehicle. Officer asks Sylvia if it is OK to search her person, Sylvia says no. Officer insists, Sylvia says "I am not consenting to a search." Officer says that he/she is searching regarless. Sylvia does not resist, but verbalizes objection. Officer asks Sylvia if he/she may search Sylvias vehicl. Sylvia says no. Officer says that he/she is going to search anyhow. Sylvia objects verbally, but does not obstruct.

    You get the point.
    I don't mind watching the OC-Community (tea party 2.0's, who have hijacked the OC-Community) cannibalize itself. I do mind watching OC dragged through the gutter. OC is an exercise of A Right. I choose to not OC; I choose to not own firearms. I choose to leave the OC-Community to it's own self-inflicted injuries, and eventual implosion. Carry on...

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    Exercising your rights until asked not to, evidently. Don't worry boys, we'll take the Kings men to court to get our powder and ball back. Don't raise your voice, they might get upset. The American Revolution was not a court case, and it's disgusting the way so many pro-rights minded folks defer to lawyers, judges and policeman to decide what, when, and how they can exercise their rights.

    If the laws and Constitution in Washington changed tomorrow to a mirror image of Chicago, Illinois, would you stop carrying?

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    Regular Member 1245A Defender's Avatar
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    since its a traffic stop there is no RAS to search you or your car...
    if you are ORDERED to exit the car, lock the doors, take your keys, and get out...
    tell him over, and over, that you dont concent to any searches, that he has no RAS or PC to detain you longer the required to write your traffic ticket..

    EMNofSeattle wrote: Your idea of freedom terrifies me. So you are actually right. I am perfectly happy with what you call tyranny.....

    If ever a time should come, when vain and aspiring men shall possess the highest seats in Government, our country will stand in need of its experienced patriots to prevent its ruin.

    Stand up for your Rights,, They have no authority on their own...

    All power is inherent in the people,
    it is their right and duty to be at all times ARMED!

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    thanks for the comments/sound advice guys. i always assumed that if an officer needs to take my gun, i wouldnt reach for it.......

    i kind of have the proper etiquette down, but this one just kind of threw me for a loop.

    sylvia - that statement was quoted directly from the book

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    aktion wrote:
    If the laws and Constitution in Washington changed tomorrow to a mirror image of Chicago, Illinois, would you stop carrying?
    That would give me every reason in the world to start!

    Here's what I do in a traffic stop:
    I open my glovebox and grab my registration. Then I pull my ID and insurance card from my wallet andrest my handsin front of the steering column. It's from this point I'm asked for my information and the data is run through. Sometimes I'll be asked really dumb questions like "is this your car" or "where are you headed tonight?"

    At least I say they're dumb because I'm always stopped right before I can make the turn into a restaurant and I've been harassed by enough kids every other night for the police to know it's my vehicle. Anyway, nothing ever escalates. I make it easy for the patrolmen because they usually worry about seeing the person's hands, valid insurance...That sort of thing. Not once have I been asked to exit my vehicle.In fact, I don't think they want me to. Whenever they see how I'm dressed they kind of back off a bit. I've asked them to inspect the outside of my vehicle a few times though. I still can't believe how many times I've been stopped because they "saw a light out" or something to that effect. I have yet to see what they mean. :?

    In the imaginarycase where I am in fact asked to leave my vehicle, I doso inone slick motion. Iplace my left hand on the door and lock it with my thumb. Nobody's getting in my vehicle from any of the other doors either. Easy.

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    Also, one last thing of note....I re read my OP and I would suppose it could be taken that I am saying Dave is wrong or I was "calling him out on it".....I am not, by any means at all. Just wanted to get some clarification on it......I very much respect Daves opinions, and that of the general membership here.

    Young......I will most definitely see you next time

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    Regular Member Beretta92FSLady's Avatar
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    aktion wrote:
    If the laws and Constitution in Washington changed tomorrow to a mirror image of Chicago, Illinois, would you stop carrying?
    I am a woman of principle. So in answer to the above question...I would still carry. I reject immoral laws on principle.

    The immoral law would be the state legislating, and perpetuatingvictimization.

    I will offer up what I like to call Sylvia's "6 levels of engagement" (I live my life by these rules)

    1. Relate (human to human)

    2. Educate

    3. Demand

    4. cause and effect (you do this, and I will do that)

    5. Force

    6. Walk away (perpetuate) *unacceptable*


    I don't mind watching the OC-Community (tea party 2.0's, who have hijacked the OC-Community) cannibalize itself. I do mind watching OC dragged through the gutter. OC is an exercise of A Right. I choose to not OC; I choose to not own firearms. I choose to leave the OC-Community to it's own self-inflicted injuries, and eventual implosion. Carry on...

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    DaemonForce wrote:
    ... I've been stopped because they "saw a light out" or something to that effect. I have yet to see what they mean. :?

    In the imaginarycase where I am in fact asked to leave my vehicle, I doso inone slick motion. Iplace my left hand on the door and lock it with my thumb. Nobody's getting in my vehicle from any of the other doors either. Easy.
    Re: a light out.

    I was pulled over in college when I was DDing for a group of friends. They hadn't even made it to the bars, but we were a car full of guys and it was a Friday night. As we were pulled over, the officer asked "have you been drinking." My response was "why did you pull me over?" He said "I couldn't read your license plate." I suggested he get his eyes checked. He asked me to follow his finger, I said "if you're pulling me over because you couldn't read my plate, why are you asking me to follow your finger?" He responded some vague answer, but I said "I refuse to this search as it has no probable cause."

    He left me alone, and the night went on.

    Re: leaving a vehicle.

    If asked, roll up the windows, open the door, lock all doors, close door, pocket keys. If the officer says "I need your keys" respond "not without a warrant you don't." Then ask "am I being detained?" If they say they would like to search anything, say "I respectfully refuse." If they ask why, if you have nothing to hide, respond "respectfully, that's none of your business, and my personal affairs, and I still refuse." Should they continue to press it, remain verbally opposed, but make no physical movement of resistance (barring physical abuse...) - let them dig their own legal grave.




    "If we were to ever consider citizenship as the least bit matter of merit instead of birthright, imagine who should be selected as deserved representation of our democracy: someone who would risk their daily livelihood to cast an individually statistically insignificant vote, or those who wrap themselves in the flag against slightest slights." - agenthex

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    If I might add something to this discussion it would be to never inform the stopping officer that you are armed unless asked or just before exiting the vehicle if asked to exit. Just prior to informing the officer of your being armed it is wise to place both of your hands on the top center of the steering wheel where the fact that they are empty is easily observed. The only time I have ever been disarmed by an officer is when I was stopped and "told" to exit at gun point. Unusual circumstances to say the least. Pierce county got me confused with an armed robbery suspect that was driving the same type and color of vehicle. He was also wearing an old field jacket and was unshaven. The only thing that got the cuffs off was the fact that the officers (multiple) double checked the description of the perp and realized that I was not 6'4" tall. I'm only 5'8" tall and was I believe much to polite to be who they were looking for. After uncuffing me and returning my .45 they all apologized profusely for any alarm or discomfort they had caused me. Considering the description they were working from I informed them that I had no issues with them and applauded their professionalism in the way they went about their duty.

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    Regular Member OrangeIsTrouble's Avatar
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    Woot woot for not informing officers of legally possessed items!!

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CAepI...eature=related


    Been harassed by the police? Yelled at by the anti-gun neighbors? Mother doesn't approve?

    Then this is the place for you! Click here to get back at them!

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    Regular Member 1245A Defender's Avatar
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    my god man!! how do your pants stay up if your dick is above your belt buckle?
    "thats my dick,, oh so thats your penis! sorry about that,,, thats alright!
    EMNofSeattle wrote: Your idea of freedom terrifies me. So you are actually right. I am perfectly happy with what you call tyranny.....

    If ever a time should come, when vain and aspiring men shall possess the highest seats in Government, our country will stand in need of its experienced patriots to prevent its ruin.

    Stand up for your Rights,, They have no authority on their own...

    All power is inherent in the people,
    it is their right and duty to be at all times ARMED!

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    1245A Defender wrote:
    my god man!! how do your pants stay up if your dick is above your belt buckle?
    "thats my dick,, oh so thats your penis! sorry about that,,, thats alright!
    Man, everybody knows you have to coil it a few times before you can walk around dressed like that. :?

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    steble01 wrote:
    So I have been reading through Dave Workman's book (I know you're a forum member here). I read through the traffic stop section and read the part were it talks about surrendering your pistol to an officer. Under the paragraph labeled "A word of caution" it says that "You are under no legal obligation to surrender your pistol to that officer."

    Now this is completely the opposite of what I thought had to happen.
    Well, I'm not certain why there is any confusion.

    There's a follow-up to that remark in my book, and I sorta doubt you stopped reading at the end of that sentence.

    I follow that up with the remarks of a veteran cop of my acquaintance who explains court precedent and officer training, and it notes the bit about "officer discretion."

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    Regular Member FMCDH's Avatar
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    1245A Defender wrote:
    my god man!! how do your pants stay up if your dick is above your belt buckle?
    "thats my dick,, oh so thats your penis! sorry about that,,, thats alright!
    There aught to be a law, zip ties or duct tape man, pick one!

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    Regular Member Beretta92FSLady's Avatar
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    Dave Workman wrote:
    I follow that up with the remarks of a veteran cop of my acquaintance who explains court precedent and officer training, and it notes the bit about "officer discretion."
    Personally, if an officer feels he/she would be "safer" disarming me while we have a talk than he/she can do that, and I suppose the legalities of it will be worked out following being disarmed. As I said, I would object verbally.

    I thought that the book you wrote was 1000 times better than Ayoob's book. But then, that is just my opinion.
    I don't mind watching the OC-Community (tea party 2.0's, who have hijacked the OC-Community) cannibalize itself. I do mind watching OC dragged through the gutter. OC is an exercise of A Right. I choose to not OC; I choose to not own firearms. I choose to leave the OC-Community to it's own self-inflicted injuries, and eventual implosion. Carry on...

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    I would like to ask the following:

    Am I alone in carrying a Digital Camera in my car? Am I alone in thinking it may actually be worthwhile to install it to the dash in my vehicle, just for those moments where an officer may try to violate my rights? Cameras are cheap enough that you could have multiples facing different directions, and running large amounts of memory for your daily drive.

    Heck, it could also be great to have when that minivan swerves in front of you within inches, then dives on the brakes to make your life miserable.

    I'm sure many here have already written me off as "nuts" (YEEEHAW BY THE WAY!), but I find it absolutely awesome that we have this technology today, and it isn't simply limited to law enforcement.

    In years past, and unfortunately, you had only the word of the officer to count on...
    Quote Originally Posted by Beretta92FSLady View Post
    Personal responsibility is a facade created by religious people in particular...
    On "Personal Responsibility just after the previous, in the same exact thread.
    Quote Originally Posted by Beretta92FSLady View Post
    Religion uses is as a tool, they did not create it.
    The wheels on the bus go round and round...round and round.

    Quote Originally Posted by Beretta92FSLady View Post
    You think that I am ill-equipped...hit me with your best shot Einstein, I am calling you out.


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    Hey hey, get thattuh pic-a-nic basket!
    Quote Originally Posted by Beretta92FSLady View Post
    Personal responsibility is a facade created by religious people in particular...
    On "Personal Responsibility just after the previous, in the same exact thread.
    Quote Originally Posted by Beretta92FSLady View Post
    Religion uses is as a tool, they did not create it.
    The wheels on the bus go round and round...round and round.

    Quote Originally Posted by Beretta92FSLady View Post
    You think that I am ill-equipped...hit me with your best shot Einstein, I am calling you out.


    Quote Originally Posted by Beretta92FSLady View Post
    Free will is only slightly a conscious exercise...

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    Dave Workman wrote:
    steble01 wrote:
    So I have been reading through Dave Workman's book (I know you're a forum member here). I read through the traffic stop section and read the part were it talks about surrendering your pistol to an officer. Under the paragraph labeled "A word of caution" it says that "You are under no legal obligation to surrender your pistol to that officer."

    Now this is completely the opposite of what I thought had to happen.
    Well, I'm not certain why there is any confusion.

    There's a follow-up to that remark in my book, and I sorta doubt you stopped reading at the end of that sentence.

    I follow that up with the remarks of a veteran cop of my acquaintance who explains court precedent and officer training, and it notes the bit about "officer discretion."
    Yeah Dave....I did keep reading, It was just that one sentence that caught me off guard. I guess I could have been a little more clear. I was pretty familiar with police stops and how they are run, though I did not know that you had no legal requirement to surrender your pistol when asked for it during a traffic stop. Obviously I know that a cop cant just walk up to you in the street and say "give me your gun". Thats why I am reading the book though.....full of good stuff.

    Thanks for writing it......

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    Sylvia Plath wrote:
    I thought that the book you wrote was 1000 times better than Ayoob's book. But then, that is just my opinion.
    Well, that's very kind of you.

    Glad you liked it.



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    slowfiveoh wrote:
    Am I alone in carrying a Digital Camera in my car? Am I alone in thinking it may actually be worthwhile to install it to the dash in my vehicle, just for those moments where an officer may try to violate my rights? Cameras are cheap enough that you could have multiples facing different directions, and running large amounts of memory for your daily drive.
    Check this thread...
    http://opencarry.mywowbb.com/view_topic.php?id=38854

    Just put a pen in your pocket and push the button when you see the red lights in your rear view mirror.



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    My only run-in happend as follows (keeping in mind it's been awhile, and my memory isn't %100):

    I was driving on the lil highway that connects Montesano to Hwy 101. Just before I left Montesano city limits I buzz by a patrol car and he promptly pulls me over. Officer (forget his name now) walks up and does the, "Do you know why I pulled you over today?". I smile, with my hands on 10 and 2 and say, "I am pretty sure I was speeding a little."

    I was just about to inform him of my handgun when he looks at me and says, "Do you have a weapon in the car?" At this point I'm thinking that he is the John Edwards of police officers for having that kind of ESP. I say, "Yes, I do."."Where is it?" He asks me. "It is underneath my right armpit".....at this point he looks at me kind of puzzled (more on this later) and asks me if I have a permit. I let him know that I did have a CPL and that my wallet is on my dash, and he has my permission to look through it so that I don't have to remove my hands if he would like.

    He spends a minute looking through my wallet before looking at me with a big grin and asks me point blank if I am going to shoot him. I was a little taken back, but managed to tell him no, that of course I would not shoot him. He smiles again and said to me, "Good! Cause I can't find a damn thing in this wallet"

    As he takes my info I asked him if I should keep my hands on the wheel while he is away. He chuckles and tells me that as long as I don't try and shoot him I can have my hands wherever I want them to be.

    He comes back to the car, tells me that he isn't going to write me a ticket but that I need to slow down a bit until I hit the speed change sign. He then points to my passenger seat, and says, "That's why I asked about the gun, I wasn't expecting a pistol." And as I look to my passenger seat I suddenly remember the 3 brand new PMags that I had just bought for my AR-15 at home. He thanked me for behing honest and making his stop a little easier. He actually stuck around for a few minutes BS'ing about the magazines and how Monte was testing them out with the GHSO, talked about my carry gun, and his issued sidearm.

    All in all it was a nice carry experience with law enforcement. I was happy, and it provided a good laugh for both of us.

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    NavyLT wrote:
    Norman wrote:
    He spends a minute looking through my wallet before looking at me with a big grin and asks me point blank if I am going to shoot him. I was a little taken back, but managed to tell him no, that of course I would not shoot him. He smiles again and said to me, "Good! Cause I can't find a damn thing in this wallet"
    How about, "I will make you a deal, I won't touch my gun if you don't touch yours!"*
    That worked for me once. Cocked and locked Govt Model...Lotta coppers don't want to mess with a cocked pistol!

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