Question from Dave Workman's book.....

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So I have been reading through Dave Workman's book (I know you're a forum member here). I read through the traffic stop section and read the part were it talks about surrendering your pistol to an officer. Under the paragraph labeled "A word of caution" it says that "You are under no legal obligation to surrender your pistol to that officer."

Now this is completely the opposite of what I thought had to happen. I was under the impression that if you are pulled over for a traffic stop and asked to step out of the car that you are sort of being detained. Subsequently if you are asked to surrender your pistol for officer safety, you have to give it up.

I love the book so far and understand that it is not legal advice. I appreciate it very much for what it is, good sound advice. Thanks, and please discuss.

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My advice, don't consent to anything that you are not legally required to do, if the officer wants to disarm you, DON'T touch your weapon, let him/her remove it, that way they are responsible for any outcome such as accidental discharge or whatever.



Resist verbally (be careful with tone of voice, nothing threatening), don't resist physically. Your day in court will come.

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Steve,

As you know I am no lawyer.

I believe the intent of that statement is under the idea that you are not being charged with a crime then you have no legal obligation to surrender your firearm. Obviously, if the officer has reasonable suspicion then that's another story.

Now, you can split hairs but here's the grey area. If an officer feels that their safety is in question in questioning anyone they will often ask to take your firearm to make them feel safer.

As Poosharker mentioned don't make any physical move but do verbally say your rights. The officer may ormay not (most likely will take your firearm) but that istheir choice.Againas Poosharker mentioned you can file charges later.

For the immediate situationdo not make any movement but again let them know you protest them taking your firearm. Let the situation cool down andlater file your concerns with theappropriate venue.

Hope this helps and see you next time.

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Workman could have been a bit more detailed about the statement that he made...if that is in fact what he stated. You have no obligation to willfully surrender your handgun...that being said, if the officer demands to take the handgun from you for whatever reason, you let him do it. If he was in the wrong for disarming you, there will be rammifications for his unlawful action.

Officers have a way of getting you to give them the OK to take your handgun, even if it is temporary. They will ask you, and most people don't realize that they are giving the officer the OK, because of course, we have nothing to hide....but if we give them the OK, they have the right to disarm us, to search us etc. if we give them the OK.

I always look at it this way. If the officer is asking me if he/she can do something, he/she has no probable cause or legal right to do it which is why he/she is asking for my consent. YOU MUST verbalize that you object. But, if the officer decides anyhow to disarm you, allow the officer to do what he/she feels is his/her job to do. The legality of the action taken can be sorted out later.

Scenero:

Officer pulls Sylvia over. Officer asks Sylvia to step out of the vehicle. Sylvia steps out of the vehicle. Officer asks Sylvia if it is OK to search her person, Sylvia says no. Officer insists, Sylvia says "I am not consenting to a search." Officer says that he/she is searching regarless. Sylvia does not resist, but verbalizes objection. Officer asks Sylvia if he/she may search Sylvias vehicl. Sylvia says no. Officer says that he/she is going to search anyhow. Sylvia objects verbally, but does not obstruct.

You get the point.

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Exercising your rights until asked not to, evidently. Don't worry boys, we'll take the Kings men to court to get our powder and ball back. Don't raise your voice, they might get upset. The American Revolution was not a court case, and it's disgusting the way so many pro-rights minded folks defer to lawyers, judges and policeman to decide what, when, and how they can exercise their rights.

If the laws and Constitution in Washington changed tomorrow to a mirror image of Chicago, Illinois, would you stop carrying?

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since its a traffic stop there is no RAS to search you or your car...
if you are ORDERED to exit the car, lock the doors, take your keys, and get out...
tell him over, and over, that you dont concent to any searches, that he has no RAS or PC to detain you longer the required to write your traffic ticket..

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thanks for the comments/sound advice guys. i always assumed that if an officer needs to take my gun, i wouldnt reach for it.......

i kind of have the proper etiquette down, but this one just kind of threw me for a loop.

sylvia - that statement was quoted directly from the book

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aktion wrote:

If the laws and Constitution in Washington changed tomorrow to a mirror image of Chicago, Illinois, would you stop carrying?

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That would give me every reason in the world to start! :uhoh:

Here's what I do in a traffic stop:
I open my glovebox and grab my registration. Then I pull my ID and insurance card from my wallet andrest my handsin front of the steering column. It's from this point I'm asked for my information and the data is run through. Sometimes I'll be asked really dumb questions like "is this your car" or "where are you headed tonight?"

At least I say they're dumb because I'm always stopped right before I can make the turn into a restaurant and I've been harassed by enough kids every other night for the police to know it's my vehicle. Anyway, nothing ever escalates. I make it easy for the patrolmen because they usually worry about seeing the person's hands, valid insurance...That sort of thing. Not once have I been asked to exit my vehicle.In fact, I don't think they want me to. Whenever they see how I'm dressed they kind of back off a bit. I've asked them to inspect the outside of my vehicle a few times though. I still can't believe how many times I've been stopped because they "saw a light out" or something to that effect. I have yet to see what they mean. :?

In the imaginarycase where I am in fact asked to leave my vehicle, I doso inone slick motion. Iplace my left hand on the door and lock it with my thumb. Nobody's getting in my vehicle from any of the other doors either. Easy.

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Also, one last thing of note....I re read my OP and I would suppose it could be taken that I am saying Dave is wrong or I was "calling him out on it".....I am not, by any means at all. Just wanted to get some clarification on it......I very much respect Daves opinions, and that of the general membership here.

Young......I will most definitely see you next time

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aktion wrote:

If the laws and Constitution in Washington changed tomorrow to a mirror image of Chicago, Illinois, would you stop carrying?

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I am a woman of principle. So in answer to the above question...I would still carry. I reject immoral laws on principle.

The immoral law would be the state legislating, and perpetuatingvictimization.

I will offer up what I like to call Sylvia's "6 levels of engagement" (I live my life by these rules)

1. Relate (human to human)

2. Educate

3. Demand

4. cause and effect (you do this, and I will do that)

5. Force

6. Walk away (perpetuate) *unacceptable*

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DaemonForce wrote:

... I've been stopped because they "saw a light out" or something to that effect. I have yet to see what they mean. :?

In the imaginarycase where I am in fact asked to leave my vehicle, I doso inone slick motion. Iplace my left hand on the door and lock it with my thumb. Nobody's getting in my vehicle from any of the other doors either. Easy.

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Re: a light out.

I was pulled over in college when I was DDing for a group of friends. They hadn't even made it to the bars, but we were a car full of guys and it was a Friday night. As we were pulled over, the officer asked "have you been drinking." My response was "why did you pull me over?" He said "I couldn't read your license plate." I suggested he get his eyes checked. He asked me to follow his finger, I said "if you're pulling me over because you couldn't read my plate, why are you asking me to follow your finger?" He responded some vague answer, but I said "I refuse to this search as it has no probable cause."

He left me alone, and the night went on.

Re: leaving a vehicle.

If asked, roll up the windows, open the door, lock all doors, close door, pocket keys. If the officer says "I need your keys" respond "not without a warrant you don't." Then ask "am I being detained?" If they say they would like to search anything, say "I respectfully refuse." If they ask why, if you have nothing to hide, respond "respectfully, that's none of your business, and my personal affairs, and I still refuse." Should they continue to press it, remain verbally opposed, but make no physical movement of resistance (barring physical abuse...) - let them dig their own legal grave.

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If I might add something to this discussion it would be to never inform the stopping officer that you are armed unless asked or just before exiting the vehicle if asked to exit. Just prior to informing the officer of your being armed it is wise to place both of your hands on the top center of the steering wheel where the fact that they are empty is easily observed. The only time I have ever been disarmed by an officer is when I was stopped and "told" to exit at gun point. Unusual circumstances to say the least. Pierce county got me confused with an armed robbery suspect that was driving the same type and color of vehicle. He was also wearing an old field jacket and was unshaven. The only thing that got the cuffs off was the fact that the officers (multiple) double checked the description of the perp and realized that I was not 6'4" tall. I'm only 5'8" tall and was I believe much to polite to be who they were looking for. After uncuffing me and returning my .45 they all apologized profusely for any alarm or discomfort they had caused me. Considering the description they were working from I informed them that I had no issues with them and applauded their professionalism in the way they went about their duty.

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Woot woot for not informing officers of legally possessed items!!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CAepItFDXc4&feature=related

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my god man!! how do your pants stay up if your dick is above your belt buckle?
"thats my dick,, oh so thats your penis! sorry about that,,, thats alright!

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1245A Defender wrote:

my god man!! how do your pants stay up if your dick is above your belt buckle?
"thats my dick,, oh so thats your penis! sorry about that,,, thats alright!

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Man, everybody knows you have to coil it a few times before you can walk around dressed like that. :?

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steble01 wrote:

So I have been reading through Dave Workman's book (I know you're a forum member here). I read through the traffic stop section and read the part were it talks about surrendering your pistol to an officer. Under the paragraph labeled "A word of caution" it says that "You are under no legal obligation to surrender your pistol to that officer."

Now this is completely the opposite of what I thought had to happen.

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Well, I'm not certain why there is any confusion.

There's a follow-up to that remark in my book, and I sorta doubt you stopped reading at the end of that sentence.

I follow that up with the remarks of a veteran cop of my acquaintance who explains court precedent and officer training, and it notes the bit about "officer discretion."

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1245A Defender wrote:

my god man!! how do your pants stay up if your dick is above your belt buckle?
"thats my dick,, oh so thats your penis! sorry about that,,, thats alright!

Click to expand...

There aught to be a law, zip ties or duct tape man, pick one!

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Dave Workman wrote:

I follow that up with the remarks of a veteran cop of my acquaintance who explains court precedent and officer training, and it notes the bit about "officer discretion."

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Personally, if an officer feels he/she would be "safer" disarming me while we have a talk than he/she can do that, and I suppose the legalities of it will be worked out following being disarmed. As I said, I would object verbally.

I thought that the book you wrote was 1000 times better than Ayoob's book. But then, that is just my opinion.

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I would like to ask the following:

Am I alone in carrying a Digital Camera in my car? Am I alone in thinking it may actually be worthwhile to install it to the dash in my vehicle, just for those moments where an officer may try to violate my rights? Cameras are cheap enough that you could have multiples facing different directions, and running large amounts of memory for your daily drive.

Heck, it could also be great to have when that minivan swerves in front of you within inches, then dives on the brakes to make your life miserable.

I'm sure many here have already written me off as "nuts" (YEEEHAW BY THE WAY!), but I find it absolutely awesome that we have this technology today, and it isn't simply limited to law enforcement.

In years past, and unfortunately, you had only the word of the officer to count on...

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Hey hey, get thattuh pic-a-nic basket!