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since9

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gogodawgs

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handgun_gel_comparison.jpg
 

Brad_G

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Give me a choice between a .22 short or a knife, and I'm going to pick the .22 short.

Sometimes I can't carry my full size 1911 because in shorts and a t-shirt, it drags my pants off cause it's so heavy.

My CW9 is light enough and small enough to work in that situation.

However, when I go to the gym, or go running, the CW9 will drag my gym shorts to the ground. So I carry my little NAA .22MAG.

I have no illusions that the .22MAG will do the same thing as either of those guns, but I can do a hell of a lot more damage with a .22MAG stuck to someones neck than I can with my meat cleavers!!! ;)

My other pet peave about this topic has to do with accuracy. If you can't shoot your .45, .40, 9mm, .380 or whatever, and hit anything, then it doesn't really matter what you carry.........you might as well carry a cap gun.

If you don't shoot AT LEAST once every 60 days, then you are only putting yourself at risk by carrying a gun. Again, if you can't shoot, it doesn't matter what you carry, because you are not going to hit anything anyway.

We've heard the rants about how the 5.56 round is "innacurate" and doesn't have the "lethal results" that the military needs. HOGWASH!! You know who LOVES the 5.56? Special Operations units. Why? Because they know that combining the accuracy, small package, minimul recoil, and decreased cost equals a bad ass round. In the big Army, how often do you think units, other than Infantry units, shoot their weapons? If varies, but I can tell you that it is definitly not every 60 days. That's why you hear that the 5.56 and the M4 are "not accurate" and don't have the "lethal results" needed. Because when you shoot someone in the arms, miss them 8 times, hit them in the leg three times, and miss another 9 times, then they will most likely be alive, and probably be able to get behind cover and stay in the fight. It's easy to blame the equipment........when more times than not, it's the "screw" behind the gun that's jacked up.

Carry what you can shoot, and shoot what you carry.

ALABAMA SHOOTERS ASSOCIATION
 

shad0wfax

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I tend to like the 9x19 better than the .40 S&W round, simply because there are +P and +P+ offerings in the 9x19 if I am really overly concerned about blazing massive FPS down-range.

The real reason I prefer the 9x19 to the .40 S&W would be because I can place followup shots more accurately with a quality 9mm than I can with the "snappier" .40 S&W in the same model of pistol. In other words, shooting a Springfield XD chambered in 9mm vs .40 S&W I'm much better and faster with the 9. The same goes when I compare equivalently sized Glocks or H&Ks of those calibers.

I think trying to compare the terminal ballistics of the two would be like splitting hairs. I've seen some of the 9mm HSTs from Federal that opened up to the same size as .40 S&W of the same brand.

That being said, I personally prefer to carry my .45 ACP or my .357 Magnum instead, simply because I have more first-shot-stop confidence with them than I do the 9x19 or the .40 Smith.

But if you made me choose between only a 9mm or a .40, I'd go for the 9 because I'm better with it.
 

Wheelgunner

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[font="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica"][/font][font="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica"][/font]
I'm going to avoid this argument, but I'm going to comment on this rant. To all civilians who read the above who care about their self defense, don't ever listen to someone who says "Oh you won't need that because it more than likely won't happen." It's the same argument the antis make about carrying guns. Gun fights don't have standards, they do not discriminate between soldier, cop, or civilian, and they're unpredictable by nature. Do not allow someone to give you a false sense of "Oh I don't need this because I'll never be in that situation." You don't know that, and that's why you carry in the first place. You might have to shoot through your windshield, or your car door, or through your front door, or a house door, or a wall, or through your old lady's Thanksgiving turkey. You don't know and you won't know until it happens, that's why you train for and use the tools necessary for situations you hopefully will never be in.

If you're going to ignore the "caliber myth" (foolish) make your defensive choice on what you can control better under stress, what calibre is more readily available to you, and the reliability of the weapon and calibre in less than favorable conditions.


This may be one of the best posts I have seen this year. Nicely said.
 

brokenbarrel

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Brad_G wrote:
Give me a choice between a .22 short or a knife, and I'm going to pick the .22 short.

Sometimes I can't carry my full size 1911 because in shorts and a t-shirt, it drags my pants off cause it's so heavy.

My CW9 is light enough and small enough to work in that situation.

However, when I go to the gym, or go running, the CW9 will drag my gym shorts to the ground. So I carry my little NAA .22MAG.

I have no illusions that the .22MAG will do the same thing as either of those guns, but I can do a hell of a lot more damage with a .22MAG stuck to someones neck than I can with my meat cleavers!!! ;)

My other pet peave about this topic has to do with accuracy. If you can't shoot your .45, .40, 9mm, .380 or whatever, and hit anything, then it doesn't really matter what you carry.........you might as well carry a cap gun.

If you don't shoot AT LEAST once every 60 days, then you are only putting yourself at risk by carrying a gun. Again, if you can't shoot, it doesn't matter what you carry, because you are not going to hit anything anyway.

We've heard the rants about how the 5.56 round is "innacurate" and doesn't have the "lethal results" that the military needs. HOGWASH!! You know who LOVES the 5.56? Special Operations units. Why? Because they know that combining the accuracy, small package, minimul recoil, and decreased cost equals a bad ass round. In the big Army, how often do you think units, other than Infantry units, shoot their weapons? If varies, but I can tell you that it is definitly not every 60 days. That's why you hear that the 5.56 and the M4 are "not accurate" and don't have the "lethal results" needed. Because when you shoot someone in the arms, miss them 8 times, hit them in the leg three times, and miss another 9 times, then they will most likely be alive, and probably be able to get behind cover and stay in the fight. It's easy to blame the equipment........when more times than not, it's the "screw" behind the gun that's jacked up.

Carry what you can shoot, and shoot what you carry.

ALABAMA SHOOTERS ASSOCIATION
someone else on here made an awsome and similar point a hit with a 22lr is better than a miss with 45acp...sorryi dont remember who it was but GENIUS, you cant get anymore blunt or on topic than that..:p
 

230therapy

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The statement "A hit with a 22LR is better than a miss with a 45 ACP", while true on its face, can lead the reader to a false conclusion. The problem is the delay between the hit and when the criminal either drops or stops the attack.

It's all fine and dandy that, statistically, 22LR is the most deadly round. How many minutes, hours or days pass on average for the attack to stop and the perp dies? This is crucial data that always seems to be omitted.

So, while a 22LR pistol may be "better than nothing", it probably will fail to address the immediate attack. If it's all that was available, then a good knife and a 22 caliber pistol would be what I would have. However, I'm in the fortunate position of having other options available to me.
 

Bersa.380

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Dreamer wrote:
Don't buy into the "Caliber Myth."

Ultimately, the diameter of the bullet fired from a handgun doesn't matter much. Modern powders, barrel manufacturing processes, and other technologies have pretty much moved all the major handgun calibers (9mm, .40 S&W, .45ACP, .38special, .357 Magnum, 10mm) so closely-grouped with regards to statistics that any argument from caliber to caliber is really just gun-geekery and nit-picking.

'Stopping power" of handgun ammo is the biggest myth perpetrated in the shooting community. It doesn't matter what size the bullet is, if you have bad shot placement.

You can shoot a crack-addled assailent with a whole magazine of .45acp Hydra-Shoks, and he will still be coming at you if you're hitting him in the shoulder, leg, and arm.

Or you can hit that same drug-crazed attacker with a single, high-velocity .22LR round shot from a short barrel handgun like a Walther P22, and if it is a headshot, stop him in his tracks. The fact of the matter is, .22LR is the most deadly handgun caliber in the USA today--more people are killed with that round than any other. Go ask your local coroner what bullets they most frequently pull out of DOA homicide victims. It will be .22lr, followed closely by .25 and .32 (about equal most places), with 9mm and .40 trailing a FAR distant 3rd and 4th. Of course, most of those homicides are gang-related (NOT justifiable defensive shootings), most are done at EXTREMELY close range (many are even execution-style) and most include at least one head shot and multiple body shots.

Then again, a well-placed #2 Dixon Ticonderoga pencil can literally drop an assailant in his tracks if wielded by a properly trained defender...

Don't get me wrong, I carry a full-size 1911 in .45acp, and I carry state-of-the-art defensive loads (Hydra Shoks or Winchester PDX1 Bonded). But I know that I can't expect a single round (or even three or four) to definitively stop an attacker unless i hit a vital organ, the CNS, or a major artery. And the attacker won't stop IMMEDIATELY unless I get a direct hit to the CNS...

I carry a .45acp because I know that even though I'm well-trained, accurate and competent, and my firearm is well-tuned and very accurate, in the adreneline-rush moments of defending myself (or my family) that first or second shot may not be as true as it is on the range. A large-caliber handgun will buy me more time to get a good clean shot if I need to pull the trigger more than twice, or even retreat to a more safe position, (or if in my house, to retrieve my 12ga shotgun). Big Caliber handguns are not a "guarantee", they are a "safety net" in case things don't go exactly as they should. The DO tend to inflict more damage when non-critical shots are scored, which whill buy you time to get a more "persuasive" shot if you need to. And the flash and loud report of a largeer handgun also brings with it a much more "persuasive" message than that of a smaller caliber...

Smaller caliber handguns can just piss off an attacker if you "miss the mark". They require much better shot placement to stop or deter an attacker.

In the heat of the moment of a defensive deployment of a firearm, you want to have as many aces up your sleeve as possible. Bigger guns have all four aces:
1) They are visually larger and look like you "mean business" before you even pull the trigger,
2) They tend to do more damage--even with non-critical hits,
3) When a critical hit is scored, they tend to be much more "decisive", and
4) they throw a big flash and a HUGE report from the muzzle, which looks scary as hell from the "business end", even if you miss...

You need to remember the history of the .45acp round and the 9mm round to really understand how they will work (and their appropriateness) in defensive use.

The .45acp was developed by John Browning as an answer to the ineffectiveness of the .45 Long Colt (and the .38 Special catridges used by officers) used against the Moro's of the Phillipines in the Moro Rebellion phase of the American-Phillipine War from 1899-1913. To prepare for battle, the Moro used a combination of body binding with leather, narcotics, and religious ritual to put themselves into an altered state of consciousness which left them insensible to injury. There are reports of Moro warriors being shot multiple times at close range with .45 LC and even .30 Krag rifles and still charging forward in their attacks on US Infantry troops. The .45ACP was DESIGNED, from the ground up, to stop drugged-up, heavily-clothed attackers.

The 9mm Parabellum (9mm Luger, [font="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica"]9x19mm, 9mm/08, 9mm P-08) was designed by Georg Luger in 1902 for use in a pistol he also designed for the German Military. As it was the general strategic policy for most European military organizations to adopt battle firearms that did a LOT of damage but didn't necessarily kill with one shot (a wounded enemy soldier takes a LOT more resources, and therefore causes more damage to the enemy than a dead one...), the original design for the 9MM Luger round was DESIGNED, fromt he ground up, to wound and injure, but not necessarily to be an effective "stopper"...

Modern 9mm rounds have ballistics that fall somewhere between .38 Special and .357 Magnum. The 9mm won't have the massive expansion factors that the .45acp will display, but it does penetrate well, and offers impressive terminal ballistic stats none-the-less.

The main advantages to 9mm over .45acp are increased capacity and decreased recoil.

The main advantages of .45acp over 9mm are larger wound channels/higher terminal ballistic specs, and (generally) less likelihood of over-penetration.

[/font]
[font="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica"][Rant]
[/font]
[font="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica"]I'm sure someone is going to get on here and start quoting the FBI's annual Ballistics Reports. I have the whole set from the 1990's, and was there for some of the range time (I was a NIJ contractor at the time, and involved in Body Armor testing), and I can tell you that the FBI criteria are pretty much meaningless for civilian defense purposes. They involve things like shooting through windshield glass, or a car door, or plywood, or wallboard, and STILL getting the sort of expansion and terminal ballistics that the FBI demands. That is an ENTIRELY different set of criteria than what most citizens will ever need in a defensive situation, and therefore, the FBI reports are, for all intents and purposes, nothing more than gun-geek wanking material for normal "civilian" citizens with regards to their information and it's applicability to our uses...
[/Rant]

Which should you carry?

My answer is "which you like to shoot, because the gun/round you like to shoot is the one you will practice with more often, and therefore you'll be more proficient with it. If you buy a firearm you don't like to shoot, it doesn't matter how good it's ballistic ratings are--if you can't shoot it effectively, it's just a VERY expensive piece of belt-jewelry. Modern manufacturing methods and materials, modern bullet design, and modern powder formulations have all made the tiny differences between the "major" handgun calibers pretty much a moot point. It all comes down to what YOU like to shoot, and what you are more likely to practice with, and what suits you the best (capacity, hand size, wrist strength, etc).

Again, I reiterate:

[/font]
Don't buy into the "Caliber Myth."
Did you not just debate the crap out of it above ????
 

Ca Patriot

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I have actually been shot before and it was with a .380 and I am still alive. I credit it more to the professional medical experts who performedmy surgery than the small caliber. However, I took 3 shots and if I had had a gun I could have easily returned fire for at least 60 seconds before I passed out.

I remember one of the surgeons specifically saying, "good thing you werent shot by dirty harry and his .44, it could have been alot worse".

Anyone who says bullet size and velocity dont matter have obviously never shot many animals (or humans for that matter). They have obviously never spent time in an emergency room or on shooting crime scenes.

I was shooting praire dogs in South Dakota last summer and I easily killed about 300 of them. A shot with the .17 at less than 100 yards would usually put them down but they would twitch or limp. Sometimes they would run off, probably to die later.

When I shot the .223 no matter where I hit them the animal would NEVER run off but sometimes they would twitch for a few seconds.

When I shot my 30-06 it would literally blow the animal into half or into pieces NO MATTER where I hit it.

We never used hollow points because we intended the bullets to pass through. This was because most likely the animal would be eaten later by other wildlife and we didnt want to cause any lead poisening.

Now this could be a good argument for "shot placement" but I dont think so. I would NEVER count on shot placement when it comes to shooting human beings who are an immenant threat to your life or family member.

Everyone likes to think of themselves as Doc Holliday or Cool Hand Luke. Steady under fire and never nervous. You arent. Plan accordingly.
 

.45acp

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My opinion for what it is worth, .38, 357, 9mm, .40 or .45 will all do the job when shot placement is there. We tend to get wrapped around the caliber axel with one is so much better than another....BS, ya gotta put em in the right place the.... CNS.



That said...I carry a .45 because 9mm's are for women and children....:celebrate



Just kidding...they all will do the job.





Steve
 

kwikrnu

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Why carry a .45, .40., 9mm, or .38 special when you can carry a .44 mag, .454, .460, .50ae or .500 s&w, or .223, or 7.62x39 ?
 

grimstar

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Well, I'd like to weigh in on this one, just to mention one thing no one else has. Lots of people will say that shot placement is the most important factor, and they are right, but they never seem to mention one detail that goes along with that.

Practice...and the corollary that goes along with that is logistics. To put it another way. Which one can you afford to practice with more? The price of ammo over the last couple of years has made this less of a point than in years past, but it still applies. The .45 that you shoot once every six months because of ammo cost/ availability will not serve you as well as the 9mm that you shoot every month because surplus ammo is cheap.

Just my 2 cents worth of opinion, make of it what you will.

Grimstar
 

cscitney87

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Grimstar I agree with that to a degree. I see a lot of people mention .22LR handguns because of the "plinking" factor or the "target practice" factor.. I just don't follow though- if the .22LR isn't a self defense round then practicing with the .22LR isn't going to help you shoot your .40SW.

So follow that logic..

If you shoot your 9mm once a week for an entire year; but carry your .45 ACP as your self defense handgun, well shooting a 9mm for practice isn't going to help much.

For real world practice; you honestly need to be firing the very pistol you will be carrying. Other guns and calibers just WILL NOT translate to different guns in different calibers. It's not the same. You need to practice with your carry pistol to be proficient with your carry pistol.
 

grimstar

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cscitney87 wrote:
Grimstar I agree with that to a degree. I see a lot of people mention .22LR handguns because of the "plinking" factor or the "target practice" factor.. I just don't follow though- if the .22LR isn't a self defense round then practicing with the .22LR isn't going to help you shoot your .40SW.

So follow that logic..

If you shoot your 9mm once a week for an entire year; but carry your .45 ACP as your self defense handgun, well shooting a 9mm for practice isn't going to help much.

For real world practice; you honestly need to be firing the very pistol you will be carrying. Other guns and calibers just WILL NOT translate to different guns in different calibers. It's not the same. You need to practice with your carry pistol to be proficient with your carry pistol.
Absolutely in agreement. Practice with a .22 is better than no practice at all, but there is no real substitute for practicing with what you carry. By practicing with your carry piece, you actually accomplish two things. First, of course, is that you are getting the actual practice with the handgun that you carry, building muscle memory. Second is that you are also gaining the knowledge that your carry handgun is reliable...or not...and it's far far better to know that well in advance of any bad situation.

Grimstar
 

cscitney87

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And to follow up on the price of the ammo then.. I only own a .40SW and a .45 ACP.. A box of 100 .45 ACP cost about $40 and I generally shoot 50 rounds every 30 minutes at the range. Ugh!
 

Pagan

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I like small fast moving bullets. I carry 9mm115 grain JHP's in my keltec p11 and my ruger P93, I also shoot atleasta 14 round magazine every week. Not to pricey, but just enough practice to keep me effective. I have my own range in my back yard, and have had the ability to do my own "ballistics" testing with my 9mm.

At 5 yards, my P11 will shoot a 115 grain JHP through 3 layers of painted sheet rock and a 6 inch galvanized steel oil furnace exhaust pipe, and expand to about .45 of an inch. This test was done at angle of about 45 degrees. If I had shot it at a 90 degree angle, the penetration would have far better for sure.

I also use to have a large1/4 of an inch thickaluminum plate as my back stop for pistols. And it would stop 9mm .45 .40 and .38 special, but not .357 sig at5 yards. The .357 sig were JHP's the other calibers were FMJ, or lead for the .38.

Also from what I have read, most SD shootings are more than 1 shot when pistols are used, and I train with double and triple taps more than single shots, just because it seems more on par with reality from the accounts I have read.

I vote for whatever you got, and can use well.
 

KansasMustang

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I know it's just me sayin' it, but I'd dang sure rather get hit with a 9mm than a .45. I agree the shot placement is the key to "one shot, one kill". Who of us can say that in times of extreme stress, as in someone attempting to shoot you, will have the wherewithal to place extremely accurate fires at the BG? The problem with 9mm is that it's traveling at supersonic speeds, and is therefore more likely to pass completely through the target. .40 cal and higher calibers are traveling slower and have more bullet mass, and are thereby more apt to expand and cause greater wound cavities.
I had once upon a time before changing computers a report from a forensic surgeon that told the whole tale in very specific language. His actual conclusion was that there are more kills from .45 cal than any other round, but that in the past the .357 mag being the weapon of choice for most PD's was the deadliest caliber.
Wish I could find that dang report, any help??
 

SouthernBoy

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KansasMustang wrote:
I know it's just me sayin' it, but I'd dang sure rather get hit with a 9mm than a .45. I agree the shot placement is the key to "one shot, one kill". Who of us can say that in times of extreme stress, as in someone attempting to shoot you, will have the wherewithal to place extremely accurate fires at the BG? The problem with 9mm is that it's traveling at supersonic speeds, and is therefore more likely to pass completely through the target. .40 cal and higher calibers are traveling slower and have more bullet mass, and are thereby more apt to expand and cause greater wound cavities.
I had once upon a time before changing computers a report from a forensic surgeon that told the whole tale in very specific language. His actual conclusion was that there are more kills from .45 cal than any other round, but that in the past the .357 mag being the weapon of choice for most PD's was the deadliest caliber.
Wish I could find that dang report, any help??
A faster traveling expandable bullet will expand more quickly and violently (if it expands at all) than a slower moving expandable bullet. The problem is that many expandable bullets don't expand at all in the human body. There are just so many variables that affect a bullet's performance and what is going to happen until it comes to rest. There are just no cut-and-dried answers.

A few months ago, I spend hours perusing through a plethora of data on another website about this very subject. The primary poster was a man who worked for a CSI department and also attended a lot of autopsies every week. Other posters were doctors, other CSI people, and pathologists. This was a fascinating read and clearly pointed out that the absolute is.... there are no absolutes at all. This thread is no longer available on that site, otherwise I would certainly offer the link here. There was a favoring of the larger and heavier bullets, but not for reasons many might think.

Larger and heavier bullets, because of their mass and momentum, tend to be affected a little less by heavy muscle, tendons, ligaments, and bones. Also, their sheer size works in their advantage because of the larger hole they make. But you still have to get to something vital: to stop your assailant. They did not say that a 9mm was insufficient by any means. I wish I had access to this thread for everyone here.
 

KansasMustang

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since9 wrote:
BreakingTheMold wrote:
http://img517.imageshack.us/img517/1236/handgungelcomparisonhi0.jpg


Made the option easy for me. And in that regard, the caliber of a mans guns is of a personal nature. ;)
True, the 9mm is among the least in terms of expansion. However, I can also put four rounds on a 10-yard man-sized target in less than a second, so perhaps expansion isn't everything. :)
I sure am glad I'm in the company of such combat experienced veterans. Now I want you to put those same four rounds into a man sized target when he's sending lead back atcha, and see if, after you piss your pants, you can still hit the target with the same accuracy.
As to the size and caliber of ammunition as had been said, it's every persons decision, but in truth I'd rather have a .40 (CC) and .45 ACP for my carry weapons. The .45 ACP M1911 was developed during the Moro wars in the Phillipines for the specific purpose of KNOCK down of the Moro Tribesmen who would get all hopped up on drugs, wrap themselves in vines and run right over the soldiers who had .38 cal handguns in some cases.
And again I wish I had the website for that comparison I spoke of.
Each to their own after all is said and done.
 

kwikrnu

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I'd much rather have my ak type pistol and shoot 7.62x39 over a .380 acp semi auto handgun round. 7.62 is smaller in diameter, but it more than makes up for its size in weight, velocity and energy.

.380 acp(9mm) is going to be about a 90 grain bullet, 1000fps, 200 ft/lbs

7.62mmx39mm is probably around 120 grain, 2000fps, and 1500 foot pounds

The smaller bullet wins. 30% heavier, 75% more energy, 100% faster
 
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