cscitney87
Regular Member
imported post
The bigger the hole; the quicker the loss of blood pressure; the slower the bad guy moves.
The bigger the hole; the quicker the loss of blood pressure; the slower the bad guy moves.
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Stopping power
- Thread starter ffemt1079
- Start date
SpringerXDacp
New member
imported post
SouthernBoy wrote:
SouthernBoy wrote:
I'm not a member at GT but I do remember the thread. It was one of the best threads, hands down, I've ever read on ballistics (penetration, expansion, incapacitation, etc). The thread should have been stickied, of course, with all the flaming posts removed.
kwikrnu
Banned
imported post
cscitney87 wrote:
The bullet with more energy is likely to make two two holes and a larger wound cavity.
cscitney87 wrote:
You have to make sure you actually wound the person. Is the criminal wearing thick clothing? Trying to run you over with a car?
Yugoslav 7.62x39mm - The Yugoslav copper-jacketed, lead-core, flat-base bullet, even when fired from the same Kalashnikov assault rifle, acts very differently in tissue. It typically travels point-forward for only about 9cm before yawing. Due to the lead core, this bullet flattens somewhat as it yaws, squeezing a few small lead fragments out at its open base, but this does not add significantly to its wounding potential. Referring to the wound profile of the Soviet AK-47 bullet (Fig. 2) and blotting out the first 17cm of the projectile path will leave a good approximation of what one might expect from this bullet.
Since this bullet would be travelling sideways through most of its path in an abdominal wound, it would be expected to cut a swath over three times the dimension made by the bullet travelling point forward. In addition to the larger hole in organs from the sideways-travelling bullet, the tissue surrounding the bullet path will be stretched considerably from temporary cavitation. Actual damage from the stretch of cavitation can vary from an almost explosive effect, widely splitting a solid organ such as the liver, or a hollow one such as the bladder if it is full at the time it is hit, to almost no observable effect if the hollow organs (such as intestines) when hit contain little liquid and/or air. The exit wound may be punctate or oblong, depending on the bullet's orientation as it struck the abdominal wall at the exit point. The exit wound could be stellate if sufficient wounding potential remains at this point on the bullet path. The thigh entrance wound will be small and punctate but the exit wound will probably be stellate, measuring up to 11 cm from the tips of opposing splits. The stellate exit wound results from the temporary cavity simply stretching the skin beyond its breaking point. These stellate wounds generally bleed very little. Small-to medium-sized vessels are certainly cut or torn, but the temporary cavity tearing action generally stimulates the tiny muscles in the vessel walls to constrict and clots will form in their open ends, limiting blood loss. Being wide open, these wounds tend to drain and heal amazingly well even in situations of limited surgical resources. This increased tissue disruption of the leg will, of course, temporarily limit the mobility of the person hit to a greater extent than wounds causing less tissue disruption.
http://www.uthr.org/SpecialReports/Military_rifle_bullet_wound_patterns.htm
here is a nice site
cscitney87 wrote:
The bullet with more energy is likely to make two two holes and a larger wound cavity.
cscitney87 wrote:
You have to make sure you actually wound the person. Is the criminal wearing thick clothing? Trying to run you over with a car?
Yugoslav 7.62x39mm - The Yugoslav copper-jacketed, lead-core, flat-base bullet, even when fired from the same Kalashnikov assault rifle, acts very differently in tissue. It typically travels point-forward for only about 9cm before yawing. Due to the lead core, this bullet flattens somewhat as it yaws, squeezing a few small lead fragments out at its open base, but this does not add significantly to its wounding potential. Referring to the wound profile of the Soviet AK-47 bullet (Fig. 2) and blotting out the first 17cm of the projectile path will leave a good approximation of what one might expect from this bullet.
Since this bullet would be travelling sideways through most of its path in an abdominal wound, it would be expected to cut a swath over three times the dimension made by the bullet travelling point forward. In addition to the larger hole in organs from the sideways-travelling bullet, the tissue surrounding the bullet path will be stretched considerably from temporary cavitation. Actual damage from the stretch of cavitation can vary from an almost explosive effect, widely splitting a solid organ such as the liver, or a hollow one such as the bladder if it is full at the time it is hit, to almost no observable effect if the hollow organs (such as intestines) when hit contain little liquid and/or air. The exit wound may be punctate or oblong, depending on the bullet's orientation as it struck the abdominal wall at the exit point. The exit wound could be stellate if sufficient wounding potential remains at this point on the bullet path. The thigh entrance wound will be small and punctate but the exit wound will probably be stellate, measuring up to 11 cm from the tips of opposing splits. The stellate exit wound results from the temporary cavity simply stretching the skin beyond its breaking point. These stellate wounds generally bleed very little. Small-to medium-sized vessels are certainly cut or torn, but the temporary cavity tearing action generally stimulates the tiny muscles in the vessel walls to constrict and clots will form in their open ends, limiting blood loss. Being wide open, these wounds tend to drain and heal amazingly well even in situations of limited surgical resources. This increased tissue disruption of the leg will, of course, temporarily limit the mobility of the person hit to a greater extent than wounds causing less tissue disruption.
http://www.uthr.org/SpecialReports/Military_rifle_bullet_wound_patterns.htm
here is a nice site
grimstar
Regular Member
imported post
KansasMustang wrote:
Are you really argueing that less accurate shooting under stress makes the case for carrying a handgun with a *smaller* ammo capacity? It would seem to me that not being able to make reliable hits under stress would be a better arguement for having more lead to throw downrange until you do make a good hit.
Practice and the habits and muscle memory that develop from it are the only way to make good hits on target. If you can afford to shoot any caliber you want, as much as you want, then by all means, choose whatever you like. I will agree that, all other things being equal, the bigger bullet will give you better odds. However, without plenty of practice, all things will NOT be equal.
I am not argueing against the .40 or the .45. I AM argueing that a 9mm that you shoot more often, either because of comfort or cost, will be more effective than something you don't, or won't, practice with.
I am also not argueing for smaller calibers like the .22...some bullets just don't poke a big enough hole in things, it's true. .38, .357, 9mm, etc. seem to be the minimum size that works in a reliable manner.
There is a famous saying that still holds true..."Beware the man with only one gun, he probably knows how to use it!"
Practice, practice, practice...and then practice some more.
Grimstar
KansasMustang wrote:
Ahh...the eternal arguement continues. "Knockdown power" is a myth, unless you are talking about massive levels of energy in large caliber rifle bullets. A baseball bat is more capable of knocking something down than a pistol bullet...bullets are for punching holes in things.since9 wrote:I sure am glad I'm in the company of such combat experienced veterans. Now I want you to put those same four rounds into a man sized target when he's sending lead back atcha, and see if, after you piss your pants, you can still hit the target with the same accuracy.BreakingTheMold wrote:True, the 9mm is among the least in terms of expansion. However, I can also put four rounds on a 10-yard man-sized target in less than a second, so perhaps expansion isn't everything.http://img517.imageshack.us/img517/1236/handgungelcomparisonhi0.jpg
Made the option easy for me. And in that regard, the caliber of a mans guns is of a personal nature.
As to the size and caliber of ammunition as had been said, it's every persons decision, but in truth I'd rather have a .40 (CC) and .45 ACP for my carry weapons. The .45 ACP M1911 was developed during the Moro wars in the Phillipines for the specific purpose of KNOCK down of the Moro Tribesmen who would get all hopped up on drugs, wrap themselves in vines and run right over the soldiers who had .38 cal handguns in some cases.
And again I wish I had the website for that comparison I spoke of.
Each to their own after all is said and done.
Are you really argueing that less accurate shooting under stress makes the case for carrying a handgun with a *smaller* ammo capacity? It would seem to me that not being able to make reliable hits under stress would be a better arguement for having more lead to throw downrange until you do make a good hit.
Practice and the habits and muscle memory that develop from it are the only way to make good hits on target. If you can afford to shoot any caliber you want, as much as you want, then by all means, choose whatever you like. I will agree that, all other things being equal, the bigger bullet will give you better odds. However, without plenty of practice, all things will NOT be equal.
I am not argueing against the .40 or the .45. I AM argueing that a 9mm that you shoot more often, either because of comfort or cost, will be more effective than something you don't, or won't, practice with.
I am also not argueing for smaller calibers like the .22...some bullets just don't poke a big enough hole in things, it's true. .38, .357, 9mm, etc. seem to be the minimum size that works in a reliable manner.
There is a famous saying that still holds true..."Beware the man with only one gun, he probably knows how to use it!"
Practice, practice, practice...and then practice some more.
Grimstar
SouthernBoy
Regular Member
imported post
SpringerXDacp wrote:
SpringerXDacp wrote:
Yeah, that's ashamed. I'm glad you saw it. I am of a mind to listen to those who have "been there and done that" since experience is the best teacher. However, I also know that anything that CAN happen is candidate for WILL happen.
SouthernBoy
Regular Member
imported post
KansasMustang wrote:
KansasMustang wrote:
I have always believed, and a few incidences have proven to me, that no one really knows how they will behave in an extreme situation until it is staring them in the face like right now... unless they have experienced similar situations in the past. It amazes me to hear someone say that they would, "blow the MF away" when in fact like you said, they more likely will piss their pants freak out.since9 wrote:I sure am glad I'm in the company of such combat experienced veterans. Now I want you to put those same four rounds into a man sized target when he's sending lead back atcha, and see if, after you piss your pants, you can still hit the target with the same accuracy.BreakingTheMold wrote:True, the 9mm is among the least in terms of expansion. However, I can also put four rounds on a 10-yard man-sized target in less than a second, so perhaps expansion isn't everything.http://img517.imageshack.us/img517/1236/handgungelcomparisonhi0.jpg
Made the option easy for me. And in that regard, the caliber of a mans guns is of a personal nature.
As to the size and caliber of ammunition as had been said, it's every persons decision, but in truth I'd rather have a .40 (CC) and .45 ACP for my carry weapons. The .45 ACP M1911 was developed during the Moro wars in the Phillipines for the specific purpose of KNOCK down of the Moro Tribesmen who would get all hopped up on drugs, wrap themselves in vines and run right over the soldiers who had .38 cal handguns in some cases.
And again I wish I had the website for that comparison I spoke of.
Each to their own after all is said and done.
SpringerXDacp
New member
imported post
SouthernBoy wrote:
SouthernBoy wrote:
Ah yes, Murphy's Law don't ya know. Not being a member there as I mentioned previously, why is the Caliber Corner forum limited to only two pages--doesn't make sense?
SouthernBoy
Regular Member
imported post
SpringerXDacp wrote:
SpringerXDacp wrote:
Good question, 'cause when that particular thread of which you and I spoke was running, it went well beyond two pages. I haven't looked to see if they have an archive section, but I would love to read that thread again - minus the flames as you noted.
SouthernBoy
Regular Member
imported post
SpringerXDacp wrote:
http://glocktalk.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1165386
SpringerXDacp wrote:
Hey guess what? I found the thread of which we spoke!! The two page limit for Caliber Corner is the default and you can change that to find older threads. So here it is. I'm going to go back and read this again.
http://glocktalk.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1165386
SpringerXDacp
New member
imported post
Thanks, I just sent a PM with link to RussP asking if he would chime in on this discussion.
Thanks, I just sent a PM with link to RussP asking if he would chime in on this discussion.
SouthernBoy
Regular Member
imported post
SpringerXDacp wrote:
SpringerXDacp wrote:
Great. It's a long read but worth it and I would like to hear what Russ has to say if you don't mind.Thanks, I just sent a PM with link to RussP asking if he would chime in on this discussion.
RussP
Regular Member
imported post
If you're asking my input on stopping power, I knew 100 times more after reading the GT thread than I did before...well, almost. It is all about what organs, veins, arteries are hit, as was said. A COM hit at the incorrect angle just might not cause mortal injuries. A shot to the correct pelvic area can break bones, cut nerves and sever arteries resulting in immobilization and a quick bleed out.
There is a torso target out there with anatomical features printed on it. I've seen one in person. There is probably an iPhone anatomy app, but that might slow you down a bit...
Why don't you contact the OP of the GT thread and invite him over here. If he'd prefer not coming, ask if you can quote his posts. If that's agreeable, make certain to quote the entire post. Keep everything in context.
If you're asking my input on stopping power, I knew 100 times more after reading the GT thread than I did before...well, almost. It is all about what organs, veins, arteries are hit, as was said. A COM hit at the incorrect angle just might not cause mortal injuries. A shot to the correct pelvic area can break bones, cut nerves and sever arteries resulting in immobilization and a quick bleed out.
There is a torso target out there with anatomical features printed on it. I've seen one in person. There is probably an iPhone anatomy app, but that might slow you down a bit...
Why don't you contact the OP of the GT thread and invite him over here. If he'd prefer not coming, ask if you can quote his posts. If that's agreeable, make certain to quote the entire post. Keep everything in context.
Felid`Maximus
Activist Member
imported post
For anyone interested in terminal ballistics, the FBI document "Handgun Wounding Factors and Effectiveness" is an article that should be read.
http://www.firearmstactical.com/hwfe.htm
For anyone interested in terminal ballistics, the FBI document "Handgun Wounding Factors and Effectiveness" is an article that should be read.
http://www.firearmstactical.com/hwfe.htm
kwikrnu
Banned
imported post
RussP wrote:
RussP wrote:
:lol:
Ole Man Dan
Regular Member
imported post
I'm a retired Firearms instructor/Police Detective Lieutenant. I've had a good bit of experience in shootings.
Most from investigating them, and one from being involved.
In 31 years I saw quite a few people shot with 9mm.,.40 cal. and .45, It's been my experience that a good center of mass shot usually got the job done. HOWEVER...
IMHO: Most shot 'Center Mass',with the larger caliber weapons, usually bled out faster.
My observations caused me to retire my Sig 226 in 9mm. and switch to my Sig 220,in .45ACP.
I'm a retired Firearms instructor/Police Detective Lieutenant. I've had a good bit of experience in shootings.
Most from investigating them, and one from being involved.
In 31 years I saw quite a few people shot with 9mm.,.40 cal. and .45, It's been my experience that a good center of mass shot usually got the job done. HOWEVER...
IMHO: Most shot 'Center Mass',with the larger caliber weapons, usually bled out faster.
My observations caused me to retire my Sig 226 in 9mm. and switch to my Sig 220,in .45ACP.