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Thread: Something is going to give soon. Either Concealed Carry, Or Open Carry is going to be Illegal

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    I was listening to the Armed American Radio, And there is a possibility of Open Carry, Or Concealed Carry might be Illegal. If Concealed Carry is going to be outlawed then Open Carry Laws will have to be lightened up won`t they? Would anyone be able to carry in a vehicle, establishment that sells alcoholic beverages, ETC? If Open Carry is outlawed then would anyone be able to Carry Concealed with out going thru all of the bull crap process that people are required right now?

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    never believe anything you hear and only half of what you see!!!!

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    One of them might be outlawed, MIGHT. It is just something out there, I don`t know how to take it, Just letting people know what is floating around now. And if it is on this AAR show, I tend to lean more to the side of something being real.

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    Regular Member autosurgeon's Avatar
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    First of all this type of hype is what caused the ammunition shortage.

    Second what makes anyone think just BC one of the two is infringed that the other will be relaxed???

    That is not how the libtards work IMOP!
    Anything I post may be my opinion and not the law... you are responsible to do your own verification.

    Blackstone (1753-1765) maintains that "the law holds that it is better that ten guilty persons escape than that one innocent suffer."

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    Laws, especially in this state, don't make sense. How you could try to reason what would happen if they get changed is beyond me.

    You are getting concerned listening to a show primarily done by anti OC people.

    The constitution of the US, and this state pretty much mandate that OC is to remain legal. A large number of Michigan law makers have CPL's and have no vested interest in messing with OC. If they were going to try to mess with OC, it would be on the Michigan web site.

    I don't know what you could tend toward believing is real when you have listed nothing of substance.




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    cabman1 wrote:
    never believe anything you hear and only half of what you see!!!!
    +1 for cabman

    As far as what was discussed on the radio show, that means nothing to me. Until something is put into vote at the state capitol, its nothing more than unfounded fearful thinking.

    Where is the wrangler when you need them...

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    AAR isn`t exactly a pro OC place, But there are people that OC on that show. I am not leaning on this reference 100%, I am just letting people know what might be possible.

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    wally1120 wrote:
    I was listening to the Armed American Radio, And there is a possibility of Open Carry, Or Concealed Carry might be Illegal. If Concealed Carry is going to be outlawed then Open Carry Laws will have to be lightened up won`t they? Would anyone be able to carry in a vehicle, establishment that sells alcoholic beverages, ETC? If Open Carry is outlawed then would anyone be able to Carry Concealed with out going thru all of the bull crap process that people are required right now?
    Nope. Florida outlawed OC when it passed shall issue Concealed Weapon Permit (CWP) law. Still gotta jump through hoops to get CWP. And there is NO OC and "non-accidental" printing is like "brandishing".

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    wally1120 wrote:
    I was listening to the Armed American Radio, And there is a possibility of Open Carry, Or Concealed Carry might be Illegal. If Concealed Carry is going to be outlawed then Open Carry Laws will have to be lightened up won`t they? Would anyone be able to carry in a vehicle, establishment that sells alcoholic beverages, ETC? If Open Carry is outlawed then would anyone be able to Carry Concealed with out going thru all of the bull crap process that people are required right now?
    I didn't hear the program so I can't address that but I can give my opinion about whether OC or CC would be targeted for scrutiny... and OC would be my guess.

    My thoughts/opinions are below... feel free to comment .. y'all will anyway...

    CC has worked out quite well in Michigan so far. OC is causing a stir. CC, even though the permit is a restriction on the 2nd Amendment "shall not be infringed", the 2nd Amendment so far isn't binding on the States. And Michigan's Constitution is worded slightly differently than the 2nd Amendment....

    STATE CONSTITUTION (EXCERPT)
    CONSTITUTION OF MICHIGAN OF 1963

    "§ 6 Bearing of arms.
    Sec. 6.
    Every person has a right to keep and bear arms for the defense of himself and the state."

    Please note there isn't any wording about "shall not be infringed" therein....... and the very presence of CC permits show that "right" has already been defined in one area of "bear arms".

    So it appears to me requiring a permit to "bear" arms in a specific manner and making all other manner of bearing illegal, would not cause a conflict with Michigan's Constitution.

    In short, I think it is open to making it illegal to OC but still allowing CC ,would not be a conflict of Michigan's Constitution. After all... "a right" to "bear" arms still exists... as long as the "person" meets the requirements of law.

    Now I'm not an attorney... or a Constitutional scholar...or perhaps I am reading the whole thing wrong since I'm mostly a stupid fish (dum bass) when it comes to figuring out legal language....

    Now... is there something of substance out there in the wind? I haven't heard of anything............... yet. I have heard rumblings (unsubstantiable rumors, gossip) from LE... and, make no mistake, LE is politically influential.

    Added: Something about that "a right" wording bothers me also... it doesn't say "the right" but I can't put my finger on it and I will have to ponder just exactly what the difference is there.........

    Gun control isn't about the gun at all.... for those who want gun control it is all about their own fragile egos, their own lack of self esteem, their own inner fears, and most importantly... their own desire to dominate others. And an openly carried gun is a slap in the face to all of those things.

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    I say dump CC outright. That way, the cops could assume that if youre concealed, you are a criminal. As it is, if you conceal, you damage the right to keep and bear arms, which IMO is a crime.

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    Bikenut wrote:
    ."

    Please note there isn't any wording about "shall not be infringed" therein....... and the very presence of CC permits show that "right" has already been defined in one area of "bear arms".

    So it appears to me requiring a permit to "bear" arms in a specific manner and making all other manner of bearing illegal, would not cause a conflict with Michigan's Constitution.
    I cannot argue with anythiong you said in your post.

    But as long as I need a permit to carry, say, in a grocery store because they sell alcohol, or need a permit to gain access to my gun in my car, then I have been seperated from my rights.

    Also, hopefully scotus will agree with the forefathers and apply the A2 to the people o0f this country that it wasintended for

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    Regular Member lil_freak_66's Avatar
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    autosurgeon wrote:
    First of all this type of hype is what caused the ammunition shortage.

    Second what makes anyone think just BC one of the two is infringed that the other will be relaxed???

    That is not how the libtards work IMOP!
    are you saying the ammo shortage was a bad thing?????

    sure it was hard to find ammo and firearms...BUT it was because people were buying like crazy,gun ownership went up,and production couldnt even keep up!

    i think that it was a great thing,other than i had to wait 2 months before being able to get ahold of a SINGLE box of 7.62x54R


    not a lawyer, dont take anything i say as legal advice.


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    stainless1911 wrote:
    I say dump CC outright. That way, the cops could assume that if youre concealed, you are a criminal. As it is, if you conceal, you damage the right to keep and bear arms, which IMO is a crime.
    I suppose you would know this first hand... you did CC [according to a court of law and eyewitness testimony], it did damage your right to keep and bear arms, and it was a crime.

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    Nope. Brady dream. Neither will be deemed illegal.

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    TheMrMitch wrote:
    Nope. Brady dream. Neither will be deemed illegal.
    +1 to an out of stater who gets it...

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    Concealed carry is a state licensed and taxed privilege for the few while open carry is the right for all Michigan citizens. If the legislature attempted to eliminate open carry, they would be illegally taking away the right mentioned in the state constitution. And, at this point in time,the political backlash for trying to eliminate concealed carry would be enormous. Not that there aren't plenty of idiot gun-grabbers out there who would love to take your guns, but they are not the majority. The rumor is just that.....a rumor, the wishful thinking of those who hate concealed carry, open carry, or any citizen exercising their right and responsibility to defend themselves, their family, their community, their State, or their nation.

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    Someones been drinking too much of the coolAID. These threads are beginning to look like the libtards. THE SKY IS FALLING THE SKY IS FALLING OMG OMG OMG OMG... Lets all be afraid to OC because a radio show said something against OC. OMG OMG lets prepare for WW3!

    Do you feel that the spread of fear will win you some brownie points? Because the info in the post has as much credibility as monkeys flying out of my ass.

    You want to hear more phony stuff like this go to MSNBC an watch their failing programs.

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    lil_freak_66 wrote:
    autosurgeon wrote:
    First of all this type of hype is what caused the ammunition shortage.

    Second what makes anyone think just BC one of the two is infringed that the other will be relaxed???

    That is not how the libtards work IMOP!
    are you saying the ammo shortage was a bad thing?????

    sure it was hard to find ammo and firearms...BUT it was because people were buying like crazy,gun ownership went up,and production couldnt even keep up!

    i think that it was a great thing,other than i had to wait 2 months before being able to get ahold of a SINGLE box of 7.62x54R

    It wasn't just the increase in gun ownership that spurred the ammo shortage. It was also fed by hype (Obama coming to take guns and the 500% ammo tax, along with other rumors that helped spur the buying binge) leading people to believe they needed to stock up on ammo they will most likely never use or want.

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    Evil Creamsicle wrote:
    stainless1911 wrote:
    I say dump CC outright. That way, the cops could assume that if youre concealed, you are a criminal. As it is, if you conceal, you damage the right to keep and bear arms, which IMO is a crime.
    I suppose you would know this first hand... you did CC [according to a court of law and eyewitness testimony], it did damage your right to keep and bear arms, and it was a crime.
    I wasnt concealing, so it wasnt a crime. It shouldnt be a crime to begin with. But yes it did damage my rights, which according to A2 and the michigan constitution, is in and of itself a crime.

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    Bikenut wrote:
    wally1120 wrote:
    I was listening to the Armed American Radio, And there is a possibility of Open Carry, Or Concealed Carry might be Illegal. If Concealed Carry is going to be outlawed then Open Carry Laws will have to be lightened up won`t they? Would anyone be able to carry in a vehicle, establishment that sells alcoholic beverages, ETC? If Open Carry is outlawed then would anyone be able to Carry Concealed with out going thru all of the bull crap process that people are required right now?
    I didn't hear the program so I can't address that but I can give my opinion about whether OC or CC would be targeted for scrutiny... and OC would be my guess.

    My thoughts/opinions are below... feel free to comment .. y'all will anyway...

    CC has worked out quite well in Michigan so far. OC is causing a stir. CC, even though the permit is a restriction on the 2nd Amendment "shall not be infringed", the 2nd Amendment so far isn't binding on the States. And Michigan's Constitution is worded slightly differently than the 2nd Amendment....

    STATE CONSTITUTION (EXCERPT)
    CONSTITUTION OF MICHIGAN OF 1963

    "§ 6 Bearing of arms.
    Sec. 6.
    Every person has a right to keep and bear arms for the defense of himself and the state."

    Please note there isn't any wording about "shall not be infringed" therein....... and the very presence of CC permits show that "right" has already been defined in one area of "bear arms".

    So it appears to me requiring a permit to "bear" arms in a specific manner and making all other manner of bearing illegal, would not cause a conflict with Michigan's Constitution.

    In short, I think it is open to making it illegal to OC but still allowing CC ,would not be a conflict of Michigan's Constitution. After all... "a right" to "bear" arms still exists... as long as the "person" meets the requirements of law.

    Now I'm not an attorney... or a Constitutional scholar...or perhaps I am reading the whole thing wrong since I'm mostly a stupid fish (dum bass) when it comes to figuring out legal language....

    Now... is there something of substance out there in the wind? I haven't heard of anything............... yet. I have heard rumblings (unsubstantiable rumors, gossip) from LE... and, make no mistake, LE is politically influential.

    Added: Something about that "a right" wording bothers me also... it doesn't say "the right" but I can't put my finger on it and I will have to ponder just exactly what the difference is there.........
    EVERY PERSON has the RIGHT.... As long as they issue their little license to everyone not a felon and do it for free without classes, etc. then fine. But as long as you define how and who gets to bare arms whether OC OR CC then the right is being denied.
    An Amazon best seller "MY PARENTS OPEN CARRY" http://www.myparentsopencarry.com/

    *The information contained above is not meant to be legal advice, but is solely intended as a starting point for further research. These are my opinions, if you have further questions it is advisable to seek out an attorney that is well versed in firearm law.

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    Regular Member Bailenforcer's Avatar
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    wally1120 wrote:
    I was listening to the Armed American Radio, And there is a possibility of Open Carry, Or Concealed Carry might be Illegal. If Concealed Carry is going to be outlawed then Open Carry Laws will have to be lightened up won`t they? Would anyone be able to carry in a vehicle, establishment that sells alcoholic beverages, ETC? If Open Carry is outlawed then would anyone be able to Carry Concealed with out going thru all of the bull crap process that people are required right now?
    It makes no sense really.
    Concealed carry has it's roots in self protection in areas where open carry would be detrimental. As an investigator the last thing I needed was to be outed by the gun(s) I carried. I often worked plain clothes. Open carry is fine for anyone who chooses it as it suits them, but for some of us the display of a holstered wepons caused problems during certain investigative situations.

    Granny doesn't need to have a magnum on her hip for every thug to see, I would rather have granny concealed carry because she won't be able to resist a physical confrontation. The element of surprise best suits her situation.


    Frankly we need to do as Vermont and have NO permit required carry for NON felons. Lets register the crimianls not the honest law abiding people.
    Exo 22:2 "If anyone catches a thief breaking in and hits him so that he dies, he is not guilty of murder.
    Luke 22:36: "Then said he unto them, But now, he that hath a purse, let him take it, and likewise his scrip: and he that hath no sword, let him sell his garment, and buy one." Luk 11:21 "When a strong man, with all his weapons ready, guards his own house, all his belongings are safe.

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    Bailenforcer wrote:
    wally1120 wrote:
    I was listening to the Armed American Radio, And there is a possibility of Open Carry, Or Concealed Carry might be Illegal. If Concealed Carry is going to be outlawed then Open Carry Laws will have to be lightened up won`t they? Would anyone be able to carry in a vehicle, establishment that sells alcoholic beverages, ETC? If Open Carry is outlawed then would anyone be able to Carry Concealed with out going thru all of the bull crap process that people are required right now?
    It makes no sense really.
    Concealed carry has it's roots in self protection in areas where open carry would be detrimental. As an investigator the last thing I needed was to be outed by the gun(s) I carried. I often worked plain clothes. Open carry is fine for anyone who chooses it as it suits them, but for some of us the display of a holstered wepons caused problems during certain investigative situations.

    Granny doesn't need to have a magnum on her hip for every thug to see, I would rather have granny concealed carry because she won't be able to resist a physical confrontation. The element of surprise best suits her situation.


    Frankly we need to do as Vermont and have NO permit required carry for NON felons. Lets register the crimianls not the honest law abiding people.
    I like your thinking of having NO PERMITS for CC. After all that is what the CONSTITUTION SAYS.

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    CC will not be banned - no way. Here is why:

    - It will cause tremendous uproar from current CPL holders. Remember, the number of CPL holders grew just from a few thousand 10 years ago to over 200,000 or so today and growing. This is a lot of unhappy constituents
    - Politicians learned very well that anti-gun agendas do not bring a lot of political benefits. May be scoring short term points but a loosing position.
    - Dozens of states became "shall issue" in the last 15 years. No state ever reversed its "shall issue" laws

    I strongly believe that OC will not be banned either:

    - Language in Michigan Constitution is very definitive. It says: "Every person has a right to keep and bear arms for the defense of himself and the state." According to my research virtually any state that prohibits OC has something in it Constitution that allows this prohibition. For example, Texas prohibits OC. Sure enough, its Constitution is written in the way that allows it. It says: "Every citizen shall have the right to keep and bear arms in the lawful defense of himself or the State; but the Legislature shall have power, by law, to regulate the wearing of arms, with a view to prevent crime"
    See the difference? My poit is that prohibiting OC in Michigan will surely require a Constitutional Amendment. History shows, that heavy public demand or outcry is needed to force a Constitutional Amendment. I do not see this happening with OC. Just a bunch of unhappy police chiefs gun haters is not enough. Last time Michigan amended its constitution was when we introduced cap on property values. This happened because virtually every homeowner was hurting due to skyrocketing property taxes due to skyrocketing home values. So, no OC is here to stay.

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    defcon1 wrote:
    Concealed carry is a state licensed and taxed privilege for the few while open carry is the right for all Michigan citizens.

    No, it's not. The right to bear arms is in the Constitution, but the way in which that is done is up to the Legislature. In addition, the Constitution can be changed by ballot initiative. Unlikely, but possible. It means you have to be on your best behavior not to jeopardize the exercise of your rights.


    If the legislature attempted to eliminate open carry, they would be illegally taking away the right mentioned in the state constitution.

    No. The Supreme Court case in DC only said that the absolute prohibition by the DC City Council of ANY ownership was unreasonable. They further said that ownership is subject to reasonable rules and restrictions. It's just that D.C.'s total ban on gun ownership was not reasonable.

    And, at this point in time,the political backlash for trying to eliminate concealed carry would be enormous.

    Depends. If there are a boat-load of incidents getting bad press, political climates can easily change. Don't rock the boat.


    Not that there aren't plenty of idiot gun-grabbers out there who would love to take your guns, but they are not the majority.


    But support for open carry is likewise not a majority- it's just a small segment of the population. The majority, if there is one, is somewhere in between those to ends of the political spectrum. Lots of people think owning a gun is a right, but carrying one in public should be subject to increased regulation.

    The rumor is just that.....a rumor, the wishful thinking of those who hate concealed carry, open carry, or any citizen exercising their right and responsibility to defend themselves, their family, their community, their State, or their nation.



    Pollingreport.com:

    "In general, do you feel the laws covering the sale of handguns should be made more strict, less strict, or kept as they are now?"
    4/22-26/09

    More Strict: 60%

    Less Strict: 7%
    Kept as they are:
    32%
    Unsure: 1%

    Source: http://www.pollingreport.com/guns.htm

  25. #25
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    James_Liv_Co wrote:
    defcon1 wrote:
    Concealed carry is a state licensed and taxed privilege for the few while open carry is the right for all Michigan citizens.

    No, it's not. The right to bear arms is in the Constitution, but the way in which that is done is up to the Legislature. In addition, the Constitution can be changed by ballot initiative. Unlikely, but possible. It means you have to be on your best behavior not to jeopardize the exercise of your rights.


    If the legislature attempted to eliminate open carry, they would be illegally taking away the right mentioned in the state constitution.

    No. The Supreme Court case in DC only said that the absolute prohibition by the DC City Council of ANY ownership was unreasonable. They further said that ownership is subject to reasonable rules and restrictions. It's just that D.C.'s total ban on gun ownership was not reasonable.

    And, at this point in time,the political backlash for trying to eliminate concealed carry would be enormous.

    Depends. If there are a boat-load of incidents getting bad press, political climates can easily change. Don't rock the boat.


    Not that there aren't plenty of idiot gun-grabbers out there who would love to take your guns, but they are not the majority.


    But support for open carry is likewise not a majority- it's just a small segment of the population. The majority, if there is one, is somewhere in between those to ends of the political spectrum. Lots of people think owning a gun is a right, but carrying one in public should be subject to increased regulation.

    The rumor is just that.....a rumor, the wishful thinking of those who hate concealed carry, open carry, or any citizen exercising their right and responsibility to defend themselves, their family, their community, their State, or their nation.



    Pollingreport.com:

    "In general, do you feel the laws covering the sale of handguns should be made more strict, less strict, or kept as they are now?"
    4/22-26/09

    More Strict: 60%

    Less Strict: 7%
    Kept as they are:
    32%
    Unsure: 1%

    Source: http://www.pollingreport.com/guns.htm
    Dude, cherry-pick data much? You should AT LEAST source the one you used:

    CBS News/New York Times Poll. April 22-26, 2009. N=973 adults nationwide. MoE ± 3.

    There are NO METRICS about the DEMOGRAPHIC BREAKDOWN for the poll. Not Good!

    Here is my cherry-picked data from the same source that at least provide some baseline metric (like already owning guns):

    ABC News/Washington Post Poll. April 21-24, 2009. N=1,072 adults nationwide. MoE ± 3 (for all adults).

    "What do you think is the best way to reduce gun violence in this country: by passing stricter gun control laws, or by stricter enforcement of existing laws?" Options rotated. Half sample.

    Stricter Laws 27%
    Stricter Enforcement 61%
    Both (vol.) 5%
    Neither (vol.) 4%
    Unsure 2%

    "Do you or does anyone in your house own a gun, or not?"

    Yes 41%
    No 58%


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