• We are now running on a new, and hopefully much-improved, server. In addition we are also on new forum software. Any move entails a lot of technical details and I suspect we will encounter a few issues as the new server goes live. Please be patient with us. It will be worth it! :) Please help by posting all issues here.
  • The forum will be down for about an hour this weekend for maintenance. I apologize for the inconvenience.
  • If you are having trouble seeing the forum then you may need to clear your browser's DNS cache. Click here for instructions on how to do that
  • Please review the Forum Rules frequently as we are constantly trying to improve the forum for our members and visitors.

If Open Carry or Concealed Carry was to be banned which one would you prefer?

If one form of carry was to be banned what would you prefer to be banned?

  • Ban Open Carry

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • Ban Concealed Carry

    Votes: 0 0.0%

  • Total voters
    0

mikestilly

Regular Member
Joined
Jul 6, 2009
Messages
1,869
Location
Macomb County, Michigan, USA
imported post

sprinklerguy28 wrote:
People never cease to amaze me. A poll on restricting the 2A on a 2A website. A better question is what can happen if all gun owners put their petty differences and bickering aside and for once stand together to fight the government as a group in solidarity.

I did not and will vote on this poll.

I completely agree and feel exactly the same way about this thread.

Wally what is your goal by opening 3+ threads on the banning of OC? Do you have ulterior motives?
 

wally1120

Regular Member
Joined
May 5, 2009
Messages
693
Location
Jackson, Michigan, USA
imported post

For everyone getting pissed off at me over this thread, Please don`t. This is just a what if thing, I am sorry if I offended by making this thread, But why do people get so worked up? And I am not talking just about this thread, There are many other threads that get out of lineas well.



If you are offened by this thread, don`t come back to it and read what has been posted here. I am just asking people a simply question on something, Not trying to make anyone upset. I know this may seem like BS what this thread is about, But we may one day have one of the options of carry banned, I AM NOT SAYING IT WILL HAPPEN, NOR DO I WANT EITHER ONE TO BE CANNED. I think any form of carry is good, But sometimes OC isn`t always such a good idea.
 

wally1120

Regular Member
Joined
May 5, 2009
Messages
693
Location
Jackson, Michigan, USA
imported post

I opened 2 threads, I wish I wouldn`t have even sayed anything now. I heard this on a Radio Station that I listen to every week, And I thought I would let you guys know that there was/still is a possibility of eith one of them being banned. I don`t know if this is true or not. But with all of the other crap that is getting thrown at us, It is a possibility. Please don`t critize me for passing something on that I heard, Once again I DON`T KNOW IF IT IS TRUE OR NOT, BUT IT IS A POSSIBLE. I am sorry to break the bad news for everyone, but not everything can be good.



AGAIN I DON`T KNOW HOW TRUE ANY OF THIS IS. I HEARD IT ON A RADIO SHOW I LISTEN TO. AND WITH EVERYTHING ELSE THAT HAS BEEN THROWN AT US SINCE OBAMMMMMMA GOT INTO OFFICE. I DON`T KNOW HOW TO TAKE THIS INFORMATION, IT COULD BE TRUE, THEN AGAIN IT MAY NOT BE TRUE, TIME WILL TELL.
 

stainless1911

Banned
Joined
Dec 19, 2009
Messages
8,855
Location
Davisburg, Michigan, United States
imported post

wally1120 wrote:
I wish I wouldn`t have even sayed anything now.

Oh dont feel bad, It has been a productive discussion, and fun to see how people feel about it. It was a good topic.

I still feel that CC is something better left to those who are trying to get away with something. Dreamer said it better than I could over on the "What do you say" thread.

Dreamerwrote :


Open Carry has historically been the way that honest, law-abiding, honerable citizens went about their business--from the medieval times of carrying swords up to the early 20th Century.

Historically, Concealed Carry has been viewed with distrust. Prior to the 20th Century, the only people who carried their weapons concealed were criminals, spies, and assassins. Concealed Carry has historically been the purview of the scoundrel, specifically BECAUSE he was trying to hide his weapon so that he could surprise his victims. Honest, law-abiding citizens carried their firearms openly so everyone would know they were the "good guys".

The relatively recent trend (in the last 20 years) toward CC as a preferred mode of carry is historically perplexing. It takes a mode of carry that has historically been viewed as dishonorable and turned it into a "privilege" for the wealthy, the politically connected, and the "upper class". This came on the heels of decades of increasingly restrictive gun laws that ALL have their roots in disarming non-whites following the Civil War, and then increasing in restrictiveness in the 1940s and 1950s during the Civil Rights movement.

Keeping the poor, and blacks and hispanics disarmed has ALWAYS been the root motivation for ALL gun control laws in the USA. This is an historical fact. The growth of the "Concealed Carry Movement" in the 1980s and 1990's was not so much a reclaiming of citizen's gun rights, as it was a reinforcement of Jim Crow laws disarming the dispossessed and disenfranchised while allowing the "privileged classes" to maintain their arms. It allowed the "privileged" to carry for self-defense, while giving the "authorities" the flexibility to deny permits to "the wrong kinds of people", meaning the poor, and the minorities.

Open Carry is based on the Constitution, ancient English common law, and hundreds of years of international case law and social tradition.

It is a HUMAN RIGHT, not a privilege. Any citizen who is not otherwise "prohibited" to own a firearm may, in MOST states in the Union, carry openly. In fact there are only 8 states (and DC) that do not allow OC. Lawfull OC is, in fact the RULE, not the exception, nationwide. It's just that most don't practice it for fear of harassment by LEO's, or harassment by anti-gun hoplophobic citizens who have been programmed--through nearly a century of propaganda--that self defense is not an individual right and responsibility.

However, the Federal Courts have ruled in several cases (the most striking of which is Warren v. Washington DC) that law enforcement officers are under NO legal or statutory obligation to provide personal protection or safety for individuals. That leaves this responsibility SQUARELY in the hands of the individual.

Self Defense is a Human Right. Just like the right to worship as one sees fit, or the right to publish or speak one's own mind, or the right to assemble to address the government for redress of grievances.
 

Killer1306

Regular Member
Joined
Mar 1, 2010
Messages
22
Location
Mendon
imported post

quit attacking the tred it is a good Q

you should look at the pros and cons of each form of carry

i voted against CC because bad guys seeing a lode of people waking around
with guns would scare them shitless and cause less crimes to occur

CC has no effect on what others do becaues it is not seen the only thing that would happen it that guns would be used more often because the idiots commiting crimes dont relize that there are guns allaround them

i dont condone cuting any of them because if they were able to that would ba a steping stone to geting rid of the other

i agree that people should fight for their rights but some people can have to much freedom and there should be restrictions to only allow people that deserve or have earned certin rights not any idiot that trys to claim a right
 

stainless1911

Banned
Joined
Dec 19, 2009
Messages
8,855
Location
Davisburg, Michigan, United States
imported post

Killer1306 wrote:
quit attacking the tred it is a good Q


i agree that people should fight for their rights but some people can have to much freedom and there should be restrictions to only allow people that deserve or have earned certin rights not any idiot that trys to claim a right

The only problem with that is, that once you get started on requirements, is that it doesnt stop. I know it sounds good on the surface, but its the infection that it causes that is the problem. Like a cutesy kids bandaid stuck on an unsanitised burn.

If you give them an inch, ya know.

The libs would likely make the classes obscure, and prohibitively expensive, and the requirements for passing such a class would be set at such a standard that few could pass.
 

autosurgeon

Regular Member
Joined
Sep 29, 2008
Messages
3,831
Location
Lawrence, Michigan, United States
imported post

And that is where some people show they don't understand how our country was founded.

The founders stated that we were born with the rights not that we had to earn them. Some people lose rights when they do bad things... but other than that we cannot start deciding which rights we want certain people to have when we do that we are no better than Hitler or Pol Pot or any other dictator.
 

Bailenforcer

Regular Member
Joined
Nov 3, 2009
Messages
1,077
Location
City
imported post

wally1120 wrote:
If one form of carry was to be outlawed what form of carry would you like to see go out the door?

Which ever you decide you want axed please give a reason why you want that form relieved. And give a reason why you want what ever form of carry to still stand.
I wouldn't choose to ban any. The question was worded all wrong.
I prefer concealed carry for my situation, but I do carry open sometimes in certain situations. But due to my past and former employment concealed carry is best for me most of the time.
 

Killer1306

Regular Member
Joined
Mar 1, 2010
Messages
22
Location
Mendon
imported post

autosurgeon wrote:
The founders stated that we were born with the rights not that we had to earn them. Some people lose rights when they do bad things... but other than that we cannot start deciding which rights we want certain people to have when we do that we are no better than Hitler or Pol Pot or any other dictator.
There are inalienable rights and that is not what we are talking about. I’m just saying that for you to have the privilege to carry a deadly weapon around with you should be earned not a given.

The rights that we have today and cherish were not a given they were earned. We as a people had to fight a war to become a nation. There are the inalienable rights that we as a nation believe should not be violated. Then there are amendments that give certain rights that can be lost if you do some thing wrong and there are some that you get if you do things right like be responsible for yourself and others and do what you need to get the right you want. To carry a hidden pistol you need to get a CPL which has requirements you must do.

No, in fact it would not be like Hitler he gave rights by race and religion which he saw as perfect; not by people living above the standard expected and working to gain a privilege or "right" as an individual that they wished to have and have shone that they will not abuse the right once it is earned.
 

Bailenforcer

Regular Member
Joined
Nov 3, 2009
Messages
1,077
Location
City
imported post

wally1120 wrote:
For everyone saying Concealed carry should be banned, You are aware that nobody would be able to carry in a Vehicle, ETSA, ETC. Unless they lighten the laws on what OCers can do.
Great point an with the insane number of carjackings that happen daily in this country, most are never reported on by the media, you need the right to carry in a vehicle.

Frankly we need Vermont style carry. This is how I would do it.

All forms of carry in any venue or situation should be legal with NO permits required. Felons not convicted of "violent felonies" can carry also. (remember most things not a felony in 1970 is today) Violent felonies would include things like home invasions, B&E, Robbery, FA Felonious assault, rape, Murder ect. You get the point.

This law would include all quasi public places IE stores eateries, schools, colleges. Private property is NOT a public store or place. Frankly I am fed up with the private property misinterpretations to limit our rights.
All Government buildings would be free to carry zones except court rooms during a trial, carry in the court house would be ok.

NO inform the Police would be required unless the officer places you under arrest.

Bars would also be free to carry zones unless the carry person starts to consume alcohol, then the .08 would be the limit. I don't drink yet I have ate at a bar and drank a soda, so why are my rights being removed because someone else may be irresponsible?


Self defense is a right, not a gift.
 

Taurus850CIA

Regular Member
Joined
Jun 15, 2008
Messages
1,072
Location
, Michigan, USA
imported post

Killer1306 wrote:
autosurgeon wrote:
The founders stated that we were born with the rights not that we had to earn them. Some people lose rights when they do bad things... but other than that we cannot start deciding which rights we want certain people to have when we do that we are no better than Hitler or Pol Pot or any other dictator.
There are inalienable rights and that is not what we are talking about. I’m just saying that for you to have the privilege to carry a deadly weapon around with you should be earned not a given.

The rights that we have today and cherish were not a given they were earned. We as a people had to fight a war to become a nation. There are the inalienable rights that we as a nation believe should not be violated. Then there are amendments that give certain rights that can be lost if you do some thing wrong and there are some that you get if you do things right like be responsible for yourself and others and do what you need to get the right you want. To carry a hidden pistol you need to get a CPL which has requirements you must do.

No, in fact it would not be like Hitler he gave rights by race and religion which he saw as perfect; not by people living above the standard expected and working to gain a privilege or "right" as an individual that they wished to have and have shone that they will not abuse the right once it is earned.
Wrong. The bill of rights was written to GUARANTEE those rights, rights which were, and still are (or should be) unalienable and basic, due to anyone who breathes. Your "interpretation" is incorrect, sir. Do some homework. Study the history of the founding documents.
 

Bronson

Regular Member
Joined
Jul 14, 2008
Messages
2,126
Location
Battle Creek, Michigan, USA
imported post

Killer1306 wrote:
There are inalienable rights and that is not what we are talking about. I’m just saying that for you to have the privilege to carry a deadly weapon around with you should be earned not a given.

The right to defend yourself from bodily harm or death is as inalienable and basic as it gets.

Bronson
 

Bailenforcer

Regular Member
Joined
Nov 3, 2009
Messages
1,077
Location
City
imported post

Killer1306 wrote:
autosurgeon wrote:
The founders stated that we were born with the rights not that we had to earn them. Some people lose rights when they do bad things... but other than that we cannot start deciding which rights we want certain people to have when we do that we are no better than Hitler or Pol Pot or any other dictator.
There are inalienable rights and that is not what we are talking about. I’m just saying that for you to have the privilege to carry a deadly weapon around with you should be earned not a given.

The rights that we have today and cherish were not a given they were earned. We as a people had to fight a war to become a nation. There are the inalienable rights that we as a nation believe should not be violated. Then there are amendments that give certain rights that can be lost if you do some thing wrong and there are some that you get if you do things right like be responsible for yourself and others and do what you need to get the right you want. To carry a hidden pistol you need to get a CPL which has requirements you must do.

No, in fact it would not be like Hitler he gave rights by race and religion which he saw as perfect; not by people living above the standard expected and working to gain a privilege or "right" as an individual that they wished to have and have shone that they will not abuse the right once it is earned.
Earned?!?!

Are you kidding? Are you serious?

Who determines the standards on earning this right? You? Hitler? Stalin? Nancy Pelosi? Obama?

I hope you were joking, really I can't believe such a deluded statement came from this site. To carry a dealy weapon is a GOD given right by birth. The revolution was not a war to earn rights, it was a war to regain rights stolen by a despot dictator, from people who were clueless what un alienable rights are. Notice I never said Inalienable?

Does anyone here know what the difference between unalienable and inalienable is?

Inalienable can be taken away.

Unalienable can never be taken away. The original constitution said UNalienble. God given means Unalienable thus no man can take it away.

I grow tired of the unimformed dupes in the gun community who can't grasp the fundamental issue here.

You argue that if you do something wrong your rights can be removed? HELL NO! By who's standard do we remove them? Shall I list the people again starting with Hitler? Stalin? and so on?

We have become a society thats' so entrenched in evil the ones who proclaim to not be still harbor evils notions.
Let me explain. if a man makes errors on his income tax it becomes a felony and so he should loose all his rights by virtue of the sole descretion of the IRS a Federal Feral beast?

Once we had a honest society where when a man pays for his errors he still maintained his rights. Now we fall for this game where we loose all our rights for a felony and everyone agrees like morons and fails to see the slippery slope. fast forward from 1980 and literally thousands of petty crimes are now felonies. Is anyone paying attention here? Soon a parking ticket will either be a federal crime or felony.

here's something to think about. Over 20 cities are saying they will be completely bankrupt by 2012, and the Federal Governement will have to take them over and supply basic law enforcement needs, this includes DETROIT, Troy Harper Woods, and a host of Michigan cities. If the Feds do as planned and provide law enforcement, any crime becomes FEDERAL at their descretion. So you resist a FEDERAL officer and you are slapped with assaulting a FEDERAL officer? yes that's a felony. Am I the only one who see's where this is headed?

The natural rights of life and liberty are UNALIENABLE. Bouviers Law Dictionary 1856 Edition
"Unalienable: incapable of being alienated, that is, sold and transferred." Black's Law Dictionary, Sixth Edition, page 1523:


You can not surrender, sell or transfer unalienable rights, they are a gift from the creator to the individual and can not under any circumstances be surrendered or taken. All individual's have unalienable rights.

Inalienable rights: Rights which are not capable of being surrendered or transferred without the consent of the one possessing such rights. Morrison v. State, Mo. App., 252 S.W.2d 97, 101.
You can surrender, sell or transfer inalienable rights if you consent either actually or constructively. Inalienable rights are not inherent in man and can be alienated by government. Persons have inalienable rights. Most state constitutions recognize only inalienable rights.
We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable rights, that among these are life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness. That to secure these rights, governments are instituted among men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed. That whenever any form of government becomes destructive to these ends, it is the right of the people to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new government, laying its foundation on such principles and organizing its powers in such form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their safety and happiness. DECLARATION OF INDEPENDENCE...

Men are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable rights,-'life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness;' and to 'secure,' not grant or create, these rights, governments are instituted. That property which a man has honestly acquired he retains full control of, subject to these limitations: First, that he shall not use it to his neighbor's injury, and that does not mean that he must use it for his neighbor's benefit; second, that if the devotes it to a public use, he gives to the public a right to control that use; and third, that whenever the public needs require, the public may take it upon payment of due compensation. BUDD v. PEOPLE OF STATE OF NEW YORK, 143 U.S. 517 (1892)

http://www.gemworld.com/USA-Unalienable.htm






Is anyone paying attention yet?
 

Bailenforcer

Regular Member
Joined
Nov 3, 2009
Messages
1,077
Location
City
imported post

Bronson wrote:
Killer1306 wrote:
There are inalienable rights and that is not what we are talking about. I’m just saying that for you to have the privilege to carry a deadly weapon around with you should be earned not a given.

The right to defend yourself from bodily harm or death is as inalienable and basic as it gets.

Bronson
Wrong it is an unalienable right....
 

Evil Creamsicle

Regular Member
Joined
Sep 11, 2009
Messages
1,264
Location
Police State, USA
imported post

Bailenforcer wrote:
Bronson wrote:
Killer1306 wrote:
There are inalienable rights and that is not what we are talking about. I’m just saying that for you to have the privilege to carry a deadly weapon around with you should be earned not a given.

The right to defend yourself from bodily harm or death is as inalienable and basic as it gets.

Bronson
Wrong it is an unalienable right....


And how do you earn it Killer, by being raped? Killed?

Anyway, to answer the original question, if one form of carry was banned I would choose.... committing a f***ing felony because once a free man is armed, he cannot be disarmed. Only defeated.


Edited to add: I agree with Szerdi. We do not need to 'live with it'. We have many ways to vote people in office that will fix the issues, and many legal ways to deem new laws unconstitutional. Failing that, The Bill of Rights has an amendment that [basically] says that if the government is infringing our rights, we can overthrow it and put in place a new one that will uphold them.
 
Top