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Thread: LEO mis-information at CPL class

  1. #1
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    The wife attended her CPL class on saturday. The retired LEO that ran the class made several remarks about where you can carry. He stated that a CPL negates your right to open carry. If your gun comes into view from under your jacket it's "Brandishing". He told the class that they are commiting a four year felony if they carry in a Wal-mart store because they sell alcohol. He also related a story to them about a group of bikers that held a rally last fall in Fowlerville where everyone was waving guns around in the open and caused a major elevation in police presence. He had no idea that it was my wife's Christian club that hosted the event which was moderated by venerator and attended by another county deputy. This is the same guy that shot himself by an "accidental discharge" a while back in the parking lot of a local auto dealer. We've got a long way to go! Sadly this guy is also a shirt tail relative...who peed in the gene pool?

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    She should sue and get her Money Back

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    While it doesn't cover all areas,sending him acopy of the newLPD training bulletin would be a good start.

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    7th District wrote:
    While it doesn't cover all areas,*sending him a*copy of the new*LPD training bulletin would be a good start.
    Add to that the MML newsletter from last year:

    http://www.mml.org/insurance/shared/...er/2009_04.pdf

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    The retired LEO is wrong, wrong, wrong.

  6. #6
    Regular Member sprinklerguy28's Avatar
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    I would suggest forwarding all info to the board of MOC. This way we as a organization can make contact in an attempt to educate.

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    Regular Member lil_freak_66's Avatar
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    would it be out of line at a cpl class,where the instructror says open carry is not lawful for cpl holders,for a well informed student to get up with laws in hand stating that the instructor is wrong and willfully misinforming his students,which could one day potentially lead to a student being killed because they were wrongly informed they couldnt carry somewhere?
    not a lawyer, dont take anything i say as legal advice.


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    I would recommending calling the NRA and filing a complaint to inform them they need to review his "instructor" status as he is wilfully misleading students that paid to take a NRA certified course with incorrect and non course related material.

    NRA Training Department: 703-267-1430


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    lil_freak_66 wrote:
    would it be out of line at a cpl class,where the instructror says open carry is not lawful for cpl holders,for a well informed student to get up with laws in hand stating that the instructor is wrong and willfully misinforming his students,which could one day potentially lead to a student being killed because they were wrongly informed they couldnt carry somewhere?
    It didn't go quite that far but my wife did correct him a couple of times. My wife did correct him a couple of times and he said he would be glad when that class was over.

  10. #10
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    lil_freak_66 wrote:
    would it be out of line at a cpl class,where the instructror says open carry is not lawful for cpl holders,for a well informed student to get up with laws in hand stating that the instructor is wrong and willfully misinforming his students,which could one day potentially lead to a student being killed because they were wrongly informed they couldnt carry somewhere?
    It didn't go quite that far but my wife did correct him a couple of times. He said he would be glad when that class was over.

  11. #11
    Regular Member autosurgeon's Avatar
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    My brother did just this when he took the CPL class from Viper Security in Kzoo.
    Anything I post may be my opinion and not the law... you are responsible to do your own verification.

    Blackstone (1753-1765) maintains that "the law holds that it is better that ten guilty persons escape than that one innocent suffer."

  12. #12
    Regular Member lil_freak_66's Avatar
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    me personally,id bring copies of MCL's and AG opinions as well as any applicable case law to prove him wrong,id hate to see somebody go unarmed when they want to just because they think it is illegal,when in reality it is legal.

    looks like i got 2-3 years to compile all of that stuff!
    not a lawyer, dont take anything i say as legal advice.


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    Regular Member sprinklerguy28's Avatar
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    maahes wrote:
    I would recommending calling the NRA and filing a complaint to inform them they need to review his "instructor" status as he is wilfully misleading students that paid to take a NRA certified course with incorrect and non course related material.

    NRA Training Department: 703-267-1430
    This may be necessary, but why not try approaching him first. A polite conversation with supporting documents and information could possibly turn him into a supporter of OC. Immediately calling and reporting will most likely turn him away from OC even further. If he refuses to listen or update his training then report him. However I have approached several instructors on their inaccuracies, and they are now handing out MOC brochures at their class.

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    Regular Member Bronson's Avatar
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    autosurgeon wrote:
    My brother did just this when he took the CPL class from Viper Security in Kzoo.
    I took mine through Viper....I do not normally recommend them. I didn't learn anything in the class that I couldn't have learned for free with a few Google searches. I took the class from them because it was inexpensive and available during the week (I work on the weekends).

    The shooting portion of their class however was much more involved than what is minimally required and it was quite fun.

    Bronson
    Those who expect to reap the benefits of freedom, must, like men, undergo the fatigue of supporting it. Thomas Paine

  15. #15
    Regular Member autosurgeon's Avatar
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    My parents and my brother took it there and really liked the shooting portion!
    Anything I post may be my opinion and not the law... you are responsible to do your own verification.

    Blackstone (1753-1765) maintains that "the law holds that it is better that ten guilty persons escape than that one innocent suffer."

  16. #16
    Regular Member malignity's Avatar
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    I hate to say it, but having sit in on another CPL class since my own, and after hearing horror story after horror story, I'm really starting to wonder if ANY CPL instructor knows what he's talking about. I'll be first to admit that mine had a lot of wrong information too.

    Every SINGLE one I've heard of is wrong in one way shape or form. It's like, since they have the 'masses at their disposal', they purposely give wrong information to scare people into doing whatever they feel is the 'safe way to carry'.
    All opinions posted on opencarry.org are my own, and do not necessarily reflect the views of opencarry.org or Michigan Open Carry Inc.

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    sprinklerguy28 wrote:
    maahes wrote:
    I would recommending calling the NRA and filing a complaint to inform them they need to review his "instructor" status as he is wilfully misleading students that paid to take a NRA certified course with incorrect and non course related material.

    NRA Training Department: 703-267-1430
    This may be necessary, but why not try approaching him first. A polite conversation with supporting documents and information could possibly turn him into a supporter of OC. Immediately calling and reporting will most likely turn him away from OC even further. If he refuses to listen or update his training then report him. However I have approached several instructors on their inaccuracies, and they are now handing out MOC brochures at their class.
    My recommendation did not come from an OC legality perspective. From the OP, open carry was not the only misleading done by this instructor:

    He told the class that they are commiting a four year felony if they carry in a Wal-mart store because they sell alcohol
    Only half the problem represented here is misinformation on open carry, the other half is misinformation about other very important laws that havent changed in years. Sure if it was only an OC issue MOC could speak to it and help educate. But MOC isnt here for educating people on concealed carry laws, and especially shouldnt be educating the people that are being paid to teach a class thats endorsed by an organization that is also making money off of these classes.

    The amount of bad information that comes out of alot of these classes is appalling. The worst part is the majority of people taking these classes dont know the difference. When down the line something happens and either a law abiding citizen has their rights unknowingly violated or something tragic happens and all gun owners are again grouped under a bad name.

    Without attending these classes to see if anything has changed, sending a info packet or talking to the teacher or law representative serves no purpose. Now contacting the company that endorses the class and teacher and having them follow up with a few visits from a master instructor would seem to be more effective.

    Yes the one ultimately responsible for knowing, understanding and abiding by the law is the person carrying the gun, but where do we draw the line in the sand? When do we as responsible, law abiding citizens say "enough is enough" and stop playing clean-up for the mess that these bad classes are causing?



  18. #18
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    I took my CPL course from an off duty LEO. During the class he did'nt dispute that OC was legal. BUT-he did say that OC'ers are all a bunch of "yahoos"(his words) and not to get involved with them or that. My sister who took the same course, at the same time as I did came away with the impression that if you had your CPL that you could'nt OC, and I've spent the last 6 months trying to dissuade her of that notion.

  19. #19
    Regular Member Bronson's Avatar
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    xraygil1 wrote:
    My sister who took the same course, at the same time as I did came away with the impression that if you had your CPL that you could'nt OC
    This is an important point. I've instructed many things over the years and I've learned that what the instructor says and what the student hears are very different things.

    An instructor may say "While OC is legal, in my opinion you are opening yourself up to unwanted interaction with the public and law enforcement." And the student may hear "don't OC because you'll get arrested."

    I took my CPL course with my girlfriend and a good friend of mine. We all came away with different understandings of the material presented, some of which differed wildly.

    Bronson
    Those who expect to reap the benefits of freedom, must, like men, undergo the fatigue of supporting it. Thomas Paine

  20. #20
    Regular Member Evil Creamsicle's Avatar
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    malignity wrote:
    I hate to say it, but having sit in on another CPL class since my own, and after hearing horror story after horror story, I'm really starting to wonder if ANY CPL instructor knows what he's talking about. I'll be first to admit that mine had a lot of wrong information too.

    Every SINGLE one I've heard of is wrong in one way shape or form. It's like, since they have the 'masses at their disposal', they purposely give wrong information to scare people into doing whatever they feel is the 'safe way to carry'.
    ...I do know a couple that do.

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    This is an email I sent to the MOC board. Havent received a response back maybe you guys will respond.

    From: mikestilly
    Sent: Monday, March 01, 2010 12:18 PM
    To: board
    Subject: Effort with very large impact

    Hello Everyone,

    I have several items on the old website that I would like to relay to your IT team. I’m assessing currently what we’re going to keep and it looks like some of it I would be happy to relay to the IT people. I will be contacting them today.

    That is not why I’m emailing the board. I would like to make a suggestion that I had setup on my website that I would like to see put together in a MOC project. Long ago I realized that part of the problem is when people attending training for their CPLs they receive false info about open carry. I created method for people to submit instructor information on the website together with the submitters info and what took place. It was routed via (email) to the regional coordinator that handles that specific territory as a To Do item to reach out to the trainer and try an follow up with some open carry training with that trainer.

    It seems to be a common enough recurring problem to also take proactive measures. By proactive I mean pulling up lists of all the CPL instructors in the state and come up with an action plan in order to make sure they are trained on open carry. This would be a large effort but I feel that if it were done correctly would bring open carry information to the largest number of people imaginable. I feel that if the CPL instructors were fully informed even if they were anti-OC they could address it correctly and properly with the people they’re training. I do doubt that many would actually lie to their trainees rather than at least informing them about it correctly. I feel also that this would bring out much more pro OC training discussions in training classes.

    PS: Also see my thread about a MOC billboard. This is something OCDO has done in the past and I bet had a large impact on incoming new members..

    Please let me know your thoughts. I will continue to try and throw info out there to help MOC. I do want to support MOC the best that I can. Please let me know if there is anything I could do to help out further.

    Thanks,

    mikestilly

  22. #22
    Regular Member Bronson's Avatar
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    You know what? At this point I would just be happy if the CPL instructors out there would say nothing about OC rather than give false information.

    Something along the lines of "OC falls outside of the purview of this class,the goal of whichis to teach you the laws relating to CC. I can refer you to other organizationsthat specialize in researching the laws regarding OC."

    Bronson
    Those who expect to reap the benefits of freedom, must, like men, undergo the fatigue of supporting it. Thomas Paine

  23. #23
    Regular Member SlowDog's Avatar
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    Bronson wrote:
    You know what? At this point I would just be happy if the CPL instructors out there would say nothing about OC rather than give false information.

    Something along the lines of "OC falls outside of the purview of this class,the goal of whichis to teach you the laws relating to CC. I can refer you to other organizationsthat specialize in researching the laws regarding OC."

    Bronson
    +1
    Only two have offered their lives for you. A Soldier and Jesus....

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    maahes wrote:
    I would recommending calling the NRA and filing a complaint to inform them they need to review his "instructor" status as he is wilfully misleading students that paid to take a NRA certified course with incorrect and non course related material.

    NRA Training Department: 703-267-1430
    The way I read the OP, it was the retired cop that gave out the bad info, not the NRA Instructor.

  25. #25
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    Bronson wrote:
    You know what? At this point I would just be happy if the CPL instructors out there would say nothing about OC rather than give false information.

    Something along the lines of "OC falls outside of the purview of this class,the goal of whichis to teach you the laws relating to CC. I can refer you to other organizationsthat specialize in researching the laws regarding OC."

    Bronson




    As an Instructor myself, this is pretty much what I do. My focus per MI state law is the focus of the CC laws. I do mention OC, but there is not enough time in the class, to cover OC in detail.





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