LEO mis-information at CPL class

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The wife attended her CPL class on saturday. The retired LEO that ran the class made several remarks about where you can carry. He stated that a CPL negates your right to open carry. If your gun comes into view from under your jacket it's "Brandishing". He told the class that they are commiting a four year felony if they carry in a Wal-mart store because they sell alcohol. He also related a story to them about a group of bikers that held a rally last fall in Fowlerville where everyone was waving guns around in the open and caused a major elevation in police presence. He had no idea that it was my wife's Christian club that hosted the event which was moderated by venerator and attended by another county deputy. This is the same guy that shot himself by an "accidental discharge" a while back in the parking lot of a local auto dealer. We've got a long way to go! Sadly this guy is also a shirt tail relative...who peed in the gene pool?

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She should sue and get her Money Back

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While it doesn't cover all areas,sending him acopy of the newLPD training bulletin would be a good start.

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7th District wrote:

While it doesn't cover all areas, sending him a copy of the new LPD training bulletin would be a good start.

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Add to that the MML newsletter from last year:

http://www.mml.org/insurance/shared/publications/leaf_newsletter/2009_04.pdf

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The retired LEO is wrong, wrong, wrong.

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I would suggest forwarding all info to the board of MOC. This way we as a organization can make contact in an attempt to educate.

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would it be out of line at a cpl class,where the instructror says open carry is not lawful for cpl holders,for a well informed student to get up with laws in hand stating that the instructor is wrong and willfully misinforming his students,which could one day potentially lead to a student being killed because they were wrongly informed they couldnt carry somewhere?

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I would recommending calling the NRA and filing a complaint to inform them they need to review his "instructor" status as he is wilfully misleading students that paid to take a NRA certified course with incorrect and non course related material.

NRA Training Department: 703-267-1430

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lil_freak_66 wrote:

would it be out of line at a cpl class,where the instructror says open carry is not lawful for cpl holders,for a well informed student to get up with laws in hand stating that the instructor is wrong and willfully misinforming his students,which could one day potentially lead to a student being killed because they were wrongly informed they couldnt carry somewhere?

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It didn't go quite that far but my wife did correct him a couple of times. My wife did correct him a couple of times and he said he would be glad when that class was over.

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lil_freak_66 wrote:

would it be out of line at a cpl class,where the instructror says open carry is not lawful for cpl holders,for a well informed student to get up with laws in hand stating that the instructor is wrong and willfully misinforming his students,which could one day potentially lead to a student being killed because they were wrongly informed they couldnt carry somewhere?

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It didn't go quite that far but my wife did correct him a couple of times. He said he would be glad when that class was over.

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My brother did just this when he took the CPL class from Viper Security in Kzoo.

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me personally,id bring copies of MCL's and AG opinions as well as any applicable case law to prove him wrong,id hate to see somebody go unarmed when they want to just because they think it is illegal,when in reality it is legal.

looks like i got 2-3 years to compile all of that stuff!

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maahes wrote:

I would recommending calling the NRA and filing a complaint to inform them they need to review his "instructor" status as he is wilfully misleading students that paid to take a NRA certified course with incorrect and non course related material.

NRA Training Department: 703-267-1430

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This may be necessary, but why not try approaching him first. A polite conversation with supporting documents and information could possibly turn him into a supporter of OC. Immediately calling and reporting will most likely turn him away from OC even further. If he refuses to listen or update his training then report him. However I have approached several instructors on their inaccuracies, and they are now handing out MOC brochures at their class.

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autosurgeon wrote:

My brother did just this when he took the CPL class from Viper Security in Kzoo.

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I took mine through Viper....I do not normally recommend them. I didn't learn anything in the class that I couldn't have learned for free with a few Google searches. I took the class from them because it was inexpensive and available during the week (I work on the weekends).

The shooting portion of their class however was much more involved than what is minimally required and it was quite fun.

Bronson

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My parents and my brother took it there and really liked the shooting portion!

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I hate to say it, but having sit in on another CPL class since my own, and after hearing horror story after horror story, I'm really starting to wonder if ANY CPL instructor knows what he's talking about. I'll be first to admit that mine had a lot of wrong information too.

Every SINGLE one I've heard of is wrong in one way shape or form. It's like, since they have the 'masses at their disposal', they purposely give wrong information to scare people into doing whatever they feel is the 'safe way to carry'.

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sprinklerguy28 wrote:

maahes wrote:

I would recommending calling the NRA and filing a complaint to inform them they need to review his "instructor" status as he is wilfully misleading students that paid to take a NRA certified course with incorrect and non course related material.

NRA Training Department: 703-267-1430

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This may be necessary, but why not try approaching him first. A polite conversation with supporting documents and information could possibly turn him into a supporter of OC. Immediately calling and reporting will most likely turn him away from OC even further. If he refuses to listen or update his training then report him. However I have approached several instructors on their inaccuracies, and they are now handing out MOC brochures at their class.

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My recommendation did not come from an OC legality perspective. From the OP, open carry was not the only misleading done by this instructor:

He told the class that they are commiting a four year felony if they carry in a Wal-mart store because they sell alcohol

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Only half the problem represented here is misinformation on open carry, the other half is misinformation about other very important laws that havent changed in years. Sure if it was only an OC issue MOC could speak to it and help educate. But MOC isnt here for educating people on concealed carry laws, and especially shouldnt be educating the people that are being paid to teach a class thats endorsed by an organization that is also making money off of these classes.

The amount of bad information that comes out of alot of these classes is appalling. The worst part is the majority of people taking these classes dont know the difference. When down the line something happens and either a law abiding citizen has their rights unknowingly violated or something tragic happens and all gun owners are again grouped under a bad name.

Without attending these classes to see if anything has changed, sending a info packet or talking to the teacher or law representative serves no purpose. Now contacting the company that endorses the class and teacher and having them follow up with a few visits from a master instructor would seem to be more effective.

Yes the one ultimately responsible for knowing, understanding and abiding by the law is the person carrying the gun, but where do we draw the line in the sand? When do we as responsible, law abiding citizens say "enough is enough" and stop playing clean-up for the mess that these bad classes are causing?

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I took my CPL course from an off duty LEO. During the class he did'nt dispute that OC was legal. BUT-he did say that OC'ers are all a bunch of "yahoos"(his words) and not to get involved with them or that. My sister who took the same course, at the same time as I did came away with the impression that if you had your CPL that you could'nt OC, and I've spent the last 6 months trying to dissuade her of that notion.

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xraygil1 wrote:

My sister who took the same course, at the same time as I did came away with the impression that if you had your CPL that you could'nt OC

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This is an important point. I've instructed many things over the years and I've learned that what the instructor says and what the student hears are very different things.

An instructor may say "While OC is legal, in my opinion you are opening yourself up to unwanted interaction with the public and law enforcement." And the student may hear "don't OC because you'll get arrested."

I took my CPL course with my girlfriend and a good friend of mine. We all came away with different understandings of the material presented, some of which differed wildly.

Bronson

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malignity wrote:

I hate to say it, but having sit in on another CPL class since my own, and after hearing horror story after horror story, I'm really starting to wonder if ANY CPL instructor knows what he's talking about. I'll be first to admit that mine had a lot of wrong information too.

Every SINGLE one I've heard of is wrong in one way shape or form. It's like, since they have the 'masses at their disposal', they purposely give wrong information to scare people into doing whatever they feel is the 'safe way to carry'.

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...I do know a couple that do.