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Thread: Green Tree Mall

  1. #1
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    I like alot of the people here carry my firearm everywhere I go and have run into several businesses that ban guns. I have noticed that the stores that ban guns post a no gun sticker or a sign on the entrance to their establishment and although I dont agree with them I observe the Signs.

    Recently I visited the Green Tree mall In Clarksville Indiana and to my surprise had several officers walk up to me and escort me from the mall. Once outside I was told I am in violation of state gun laws by carrying in a pplace of business that bans firearms. To make a long story short it cost me alot of time and money to get this straightend out thankfully I was able to keep my permit.

    My issue is this. Look at the entrances of the Green Tree mall nonwhere does it say anything about firearms. I was shown a small sighn well away from the entrance in a place I wouldnt look normaly for anything as my mind is on shopping not on reading the walls. I may be wrong as gun laws are always changeing but it is my understanding the a no guns permitted sign or a sticker must be placed on a aentrance door or in a highly visable conspicous location. feel free to let me know if im in error and if you know of a way to better fight this issue if I ever run into it again

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    Regular Member Beau's Avatar
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    Interesting situation.What time and money did it take to get this straightened out? What was it that they charged you with? I ask because signs have no force of law in Indiana.

    Where you would run into a problem is if you were asked to leave and you refused. Then you could be charged with trespass.
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    Lexis Nexis: Colorado law pertaining to firearms.
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    +1 Beau. If you ever find yourself in that position, simply ask them to cite which law you are breaking. They can't conjure up a random charge that doesn't exist. In this case, it sounds as though that's what they did--that puts the LEO's department in a great position of liability. Certainly a formal complaint is in order.

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    langzaiguy wrote:
    +1 Beau. If you ever find yourself in that position, simply ask them to cite which law you are breaking. They can't conjure up a random charge that doesn't exist. In this case, it sounds as though that's what they did--that puts the LEO's department in a great position of liability. Certainly a formal complaint is in order.
    Yes indeed here in good old Indiana if the business has a sign posted indicating no guns are allowed then you better heed the warning otherwise as my fellow hoosier found out it can be costly to you.

    I am all for OC but in cases like this then I'm happy enough to have to keep it concealed.


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    Beau wrote:
    I ask because signs have no force of law in Indiana.

    Where you would run into a problem is if you were asked to leave and you refused. Then you could be charged with trespass.
    I can't speak for the town that he was in but I guarantee you that here in Terre Haute, Indianaif the sign prohibits it and you enter into said business you will be removed and if you resist you will be arrested. I don't know the IC number backing this up but I guarantee the officer will be more than happy to give it to you as he take you straight to jail.

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    I don't live in IN, and am certainly no expert on IN law, but is there any authority behind the "no guns" signs? As I understand things, it is not against the law to carry in such places--it's simply considered trespassing if you refuse to leave. Is this not the case?

    If it is the case, then a lawsuit is plausible and a complaint is certainly in order--unless Besaw refused to leave and the charge was 'trespassing'.

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    EdwardNorton wrote:
    Beau wrote:
    I ask because signs have no force of law in Indiana.

    Where you would run into a problem is if you were asked to leave and you refused. Then you could be charged with trespass.
    I can't speak for the town that he was in but I guarantee you that here in Terre Haute, Indianaif the sign prohibits it and you enter into said business you will be removed and if you resist you will be arrested. I don't know the IC number backing this up but I guarantee the officer will be more than happy to give it to you as he take you straight to jail.
    http://www.handgunlaw.us/states/indiana.pdf

    I disagree that entering a posted establishment is a firearm violation of Indiana statute. I do agree however that if told to leave and you refuse, you mayface a tresspass charge (arrested). North Carolina, for example, is very specific about posted establishments and if in fact this was the case in Indiana, Handgunlaw, would have this prohibition clearly spelled-out on their site (See Link).

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    Besaw Family Indiana wrote:
    I like alot of the people here carry my firearm everywhere I go and have run into several businesses that ban guns. I have noticed that the stores that ban guns post a no gun sticker or a sign on the entrance to their establishment and although I dont agree with them I observe the Signs.

    Recently I visited the Green Tree mall In Clarksville Indiana and to my surprise had several officers walk up to me and escort me from the mall. Once outside I was told I am in violation of state gun laws by carrying in a pplace of business that bans firearms. To make a long story short it cost me alot of time and money to get this straightend out thankfully I was able to keep my permit.

    My issue is this. Look at the entrances of the Green Tree mall nonwhere does it say anything about firearms. I was shown a small sighn well away from the entrance in a place I wouldnt look normaly for anything as my mind is on shopping not on reading the walls. I may be wrong as gun laws are always changeing but it is my understanding the a no guns permitted sign or a sticker must be placed on a aentrance door or in a highly visable conspicous location. feel free to let me know if im in error and if you know of a way to better fight this issue if I ever run into it again
    Always remember BFI that you can be arrested anytime, anywhere and then it's on your dime to get yourself out of the otherwise lawful activity you were originally charge with. In your case at Green Tree, you obviously were not in violation due to no conviction, while retaining your permit.

    Private property, as you may already know, trumps and you can be asked to leave, not come back, etc, and the mall is not required by law to post such a prohibition for it to be enforce by the property owners. See my previous post above for firearm laws in Indiana.

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    Besaw Family Indiana wrote:

    My issue is this. Look at the entrances of the Green Tree mall nonwhere does it say anything about firearms. I was shown a small sighn well away from the entrance in a place I wouldnt look normaly for anything as my mind is on shopping not on reading the walls. I may be wrong as gun laws are always changeing but it is my understanding the a no guns permitted sign or a sticker must be placed on a aentrance door or in a highly visable conspicous location. feel free to let me know if im in error and if you know of a way to better fight this issue if I ever run into it again
    I believe the OP's question wasn't regarding his actions or the LEO's actions.
    He's wanting to know what the law is regarding the signage. He said he was shown a sign but it was way off to the side of the entrance and in small lettering.

    Does Indiana have a statute that requires "No weapons" signs to be in a conspicuous location, have certain wording or size lettering the way Texas does?
    Quote Originally Posted by NavyLT View Post
    Him: "I carry my gun concealed"
    Me: "You're not very good at it"
    Him: "What do you mean?"
    Me: "I know you have a gun"
    End of conversation.

  10. #10
    Regular Member Beau's Avatar
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    turbodog wrote:

    I believe the OP's question wasn't regarding his actions or the LEO's actions.
    He's wanting to know what the law is regarding the signage. He said he was shown a sign but it was way off to the side of the entrance and in small lettering.

    Does Indiana have a statute that requires "No weapons" signs to be in a conspicuous location, have certain wording or size lettering the way Texas does?
    Signs make no difference in IN. It does not matter if the sign is 10 feet tall or the size of a postage stamp. It doesn't matter if there is no sign.

    Signs in IN carry no force of law. So no, a businesss does not have to post a sign. If they do post a sign think of it as apolite suggestion.They can at anytime ask you to leave for any reason though. Usually not so politely.

    Also, if you are asked to leave for carrying please do not say that there was no signage. This will just prompt the business to put them up. It's just as easy to say, I'm sorry. I wasn't aware of your policy. If they tell you it's posted at the entrance just say that you must have missed it. Again, don't say thatit isn't therebecause you checked. If it's not there it soon will be. and if it is there then you look like an idiotfor missing it.
    Colorado Gun Owners - COGO
    http://www.ColoradoGunOwners.com

    A discussion forum for Colorado Gun Owners.

    Colorado Firearm law.
    http://www.lexisnexis.com/hottopics/colorado/
    Lexis Nexis: Colorado law pertaining to firearms.
    Title 18, Article 12

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    SpringerXDacp wrote:
    EdwardNorton wrote:
    Beau wrote:
    I ask because signs have no force of law in Indiana.

    Where you would run into a problem is if you were asked to leave and you refused. Then you could be charged with trespass.
    I can't speak for the town that he was in but I guarantee you that here in Terre Haute, Indianaif the sign prohibits it and you enter into said business you will be removed and if you resist you will be arrested. I don't know the IC number backing this up but I guarantee the officer will be more than happy to give it to you as he take you straight to jail.
    http://www.handgunlaw.us/states/indiana.pdf

    I disagree that entering a posted establishment is a firearm violation of Indiana statute. I do agree however that if told to leave and you refuse, you mayface a tresspass charge (arrested). North Carolina, for example, is very specific about posted establishments and if in fact this was the case in Indiana, Handgunlaw, would have this prohibition clearly spelled-out on their site (See Link).
    This is only a portion of the Indiana Code in regards to signs preventing one from going into a business with a no guns allowed sign.

    >>> IC 35-43-2-2
    Criminal trespass; denial of entry; permission to enter;

    (b) A person has been denied entry under subdivision (a)(1) of this section when the person has been denied entry by means of:
    (1) personal communication, oral or written; <<<

    I didn't want to put the entire law here as it would just go on and on which would bore most to read. This is however the "base" violation which would lead to more charges before it is all said and done.

    I also read in that pdf file that you an take a firearm into a restaurant that serves alcohol. It doesn't matter what .US law may or may not clarify, said decisions are left to not only the state but local municipalities as well. If there is the sign on the entrance door or adjacent window and you proceed inside you are subject to being arrested, charged and sentenced. It may be a BS kind of deal but that's how they roll here.

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    EdwardNorton wrote:
    This is only a portion of the Indiana Code in regards to signs preventing one from going into a business with a no guns allowed sign.

    >>> IC 35-43-2-2
    Criminal trespass; denial of entry; permission to enter;

    (b) A person has been denied entry under subdivision (a)(1) of this section when the person has been denied entry by means of:
    (1) personal communication, oral or written; <<<

    I didn't want to put the entire law here as it would just go on and on which would bore most to read. This is however the "base" violation which would lead to more charges before it is all said and done.

    I also read in that pdf file that you an take a firearm into a restaurant that serves alcohol. It doesn't matter what .US law may or may not clarify, said decisions are left to not only the state but local municipalities as well. If there is the sign on the entrance door or adjacent window and you proceed inside you are subject to being arrested, charged and sentenced. It may be a BS kind of deal but that's how they roll here.
    We've had the discussion on signs several times on another forum, about the only way a sign for a business could possibly work in IN is if it stated "no firearms allowed, anyone bringing firearms into the building will be considered trespassing" that was from an attorney who specializes in firearm law in IN. The signs mentioned in that statute are regarding no trespassing signs like you would find at the entrance to a private drive or a private area inside a public building ie employees only no trespassing.

    And yes you can carry into a restaurant that serves alcohol, actually you can carry into a bar. You can even drink.

    And IN has partial preemption localities can only regulate firearms on property they own, not including streets. ie they can say no guns in parks etc. and restrict sales by a business within 200 ft of schools and for 72 hrs in a state of emergency. Unless they were passed before 1/1/1994.

    IC 35-47-11-2
    Regulation of firearms by units other than townships
    Sec. 2. Notwithstanding IC36-1-3, a unit may not regulate in any manner the ownership, possession, sale, transfer, or transportation of firearms (as defined in IC35-47-1-5) or ammunition except as follows:
    (1) This chapter does not apply to land, buildings, or other real property owned or administered by a unit, except highways (as defined in IC8-23-1-23) or public highways (as defined in IC8-2.1-17-14).
    (2) Notwithstanding the limitation in this section, a unit may use the unit's planning and zoning powers under IC36-7-4 to prohibit the sale of firearms within two hundred (200) feet of a school by a person having a business that did not sell firearms within two hundred (200) feet of a school before April 1, 1994.
    (3) Notwithstanding the limitation in this section, a legislative body of a unit other than a township may adopt an emergency ordinance or a unit other than a township may take other action allowed under section 6 of this chapter to regulate the sale of firearms anywhere within the unit for a period of not more than seventy-two (72) hours after the regulatory action takes effect.

  13. #13
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    EdwardNorton wrote:
    SpringerXDacp wrote:
    EdwardNorton wrote:
    Beau wrote:
    I ask because signs have no force of law in Indiana.

    Where you would run into a problem is if you were asked to leave and you refused. Then you could be charged with trespass.
    I can't speak for the town that he was in but I guarantee you that here in Terre Haute, Indianaif the sign prohibits it and you enter into said business you will be removed and if you resist you will be arrested. I don't know the IC number backing this up but I guarantee the officer will be more than happy to give it to you as he take you straight to jail.
    http://www.handgunlaw.us/states/indiana.pdf

    I disagree that entering a posted establishment is a firearm violation of Indiana statute. I do agree however that if told to leave and you refuse, you mayface a tresspass charge (arrested). North Carolina, for example, is very specific about posted establishments and if in fact this was the case in Indiana, Handgunlaw, would have this prohibition clearly spelled-out on their site (See Link).
    This is only a portion of the Indiana Code in regards to signs preventing one from going into a business with a no guns allowed sign.

    >>> IC 35-43-2-2
    Criminal trespass; denial of entry; permission to enter;

    (b) A person has been denied entry under subdivision (a)(1) of this section when the person has been denied entry by means of:
    (1) personal communication, oral or written; <<<

    I didn't want to put the entire law here as it would just go on and on which would bore most to read. This is however the "base" violation which would lead to more charges before it is all said and done.

    I also read in that pdf file that you an take a firearm into a restaurant that serves alcohol. It doesn't matter what .US law may or may not clarify, said decisions are left to not only the state but local municipalities as well. If there is the sign on the entrance door or adjacent window and you proceed inside you are subject to being arrested, charged and sentenced. It may be a BS kind of deal but that's how they roll here.
    The law you cite has nothing to do with signs stating "no guns." It has to do with being warned to leave the property and not come back, including written notification of trespass. Yes, there is a form that you can fill out and have an individual sign as notification that if they return to the property they are trespassing. Yes, I have done this.

    It is not trespass until you either 1) refuse to leave after being told to leave or 2) return to the property after being told not to return. Carrying a gun on posted property is not trespassing, by any law.

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    Some States, such as South Carolina or Texas, have specific Laws that disallow Carry, namely Concealed Carry for those two States, for certain signs posted conspicuously that comply to State requirements for font and verbiage.

    However, in Indiana, a no Guns Sign, like Georgia, which ismy State, means nothing.

    If you are asked to leave, Person to Person, that is when Indiana Law for Tresspassing comes into play if you either, among other things:

    1. Refuse to leave, OR

    2. Return to the Property.

    This is per Indiana Code 35-43-2-2.

    This Code is extensive, therefore, one may want to read it in its entireity.


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    I was in University Park mall the other day and they do not allow the carrying of firearms open or concealed (how could they enforce a rule about doing something concealed?) the only sign I saw was in the mall by the restrooms by the food court! I have sent a email to the management asking why they have this rule I doubt ill get a response. But in the meantime add then to the list of anti gun businesses. Also stopped in at Midwest Gun Exchange an extremely friendly place to visit!



    University park mall

    6501 North Grape Road
    Mishawaka, IN 46545


    (574) 271-5531



    Midwest Gun Exchange

    3415 Grape Road

    Mishawaka, Indiana 46545

    574-257-0020

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