traffic stop in Virginia Beach

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NovaCop10 wrote:

I don't see the huge issue with allowing an officer to take control of your weapon for the short time period of a traffic stop

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The difference between 'ahuge issue'and 'no big deal':

A 'huge issue' is when it happens to me. 'No big deal' is when it happens to you.


-- Matt Groening, adapted--

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NovaCop10 wrote:

If you are a law abiding citizen, you should encourage officers to run serial numbers during traffic stops because that would ensure more illegal weapons are taken off the streets, making your community safer.

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Welcome NovCop10

Would you also encourage that same law abiding citizen to relinquish their credit cards, cash, electronics (cell phone, Ipod, laptop), and etc during a traffic stop? All of those items have serial #'s that could be run to determine if they're illegal, i.e. stolen. And, each one of these items is the property of it's owner, no different than the firearm. Similarly, they are all subject to some form of government regulation, so that shouldn't be used as a discriminator to single out the firearm.

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bullseye wrote:

NovaCop10 wrote:

If you are a law abiding citizen, you should encourage officers to run serial numbers during traffic stops because that would ensure more illegal weapons are taken off the streets, making your community safer.

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Welcome NovCop10

Would you also encourage that same law abiding citizen to relinquish their credit cards, cash, electronics (cell phone, Ipod, laptop), and etc during a traffic stop? All of those items have serial #'s that could be run to determine if they're illegal, i.e. stolen. And, each one of these items is the property of it's owner, no different than the firearm. Similarly, they are all subject to some form of government regulation, so that shouldn't be used as a discriminator to single out the firearm.

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Use black electrical tape in to cover your serial number in Virginia. (Don't do it in California)

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NovaCop10 wrote:

Put yourself in that officer's shoes and realize that split second decisions may end your life at any moment. On a side note, please don't place your loaded handgun on your passenger seat as an effort to "openly carry" according to the law during a stop. I saw that happen last week, and it made for a scary situation for the officer, and I'm sure for the citizen as well.

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No offence intended Nova Cop, as I don't know you or how you do your duty.

What spoils the bunch is the arrogant cops that seem to think they own the world. The ones that are better than any one else that believe any one that carries shouldn't be treated with respect, but rather rudeness. These are the same ones that don't know the law and refuse to admit it, because their training is based on everything that’s illegal and nothing that is legal and their limits of.

As far as the open carried gun on the passenger seat, the only draw back to me would be the potential damage tothe weaponshould you have to hit your breaks suddenly and it slams into something.

Criminals as you should know for the most part are either going to have them in their hand, or hidden from common observation. Not saying they might not have it on the seat, but if you are approaching a car with the drivers hands on the wheel and a gun in his or her passenger seat chances are you won’t have an issue.

Va is not a state you even have to mention you are carrying by law either.It goes without saying, I guess someone just wanting to give the curtsy to the officer thatthey are carrying and the officer taking the weapon is no more than a slap in the face and a reason not to extend the courtesy the next time.

You are right however it is dangerous out there, even though you all are in the middle of it every day, that should be proof and validationthat things can happen any place, any where in a split secondand that is why many of us carry every day. Something else you are probably aware of response times very, depending on the location it could take any where from 5 to 20 minutes and in some cases even longer.

If you want to do a greater service for the people you protect, all of you should be more vocal about pro gun rights, and treat the law abiding with more respect than some of your guys give.

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NovaCop10 wrote:

I almost forgot to add..

During a traffic stop:

An officer can pull you out of your car and pat you down and your immediate area of your car for weapons if he believes you are armed (even if armed legally).

He can enter your car while you are still in it and take your weapon from your holster.

I don't understand why some of you think you could file a lawsuit if an officer does this? Please explain how this is illegal.

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You are hardly in a position to request cites (by implication) from others when you precede with question with uncited declarations of legality.

Forum Rule #7:

7) If you state a rule of law, it is incumbent upon you to try to cite, as best you can, to authority. Citing to authority, using links when available,is what makes OCDO so successful. An authority is a published source of law that can back your claim up - statute, ordinance, court case, newspaper article covering a legal issue, etc.


Cites, please, Nova10.

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NovaCop10 wrote:

SNIP On a side note, please don't place your loaded handgun on your passenger seat as an effort to "openly carry" according to the law during a stop. I saw that happen last week, and it made for a scary situation for the officer, and I'm sure for the citizen as well.

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Oh. I get it. Now, besides restrictions againstconcealed carry, you want us to openly carry in some way besides the seat because it might make a "scary situation".

Is dashboard open carry less scary for our faint-hearted patrol-person?

Or, perhaps you are advocating illegally concealing the gun in the glove box for the duration of the stop?

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SNIP If you are a law abiding citizen, you should encourage officers to run serial numbers during traffic stops because that would ensure more illegal weapons are taken off the streets, making your community safer.

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Translation: Law-abiding (but not necessarily liberty-minded) citizens should be happy the police are stretching the plain view search doctrine in a self-interested quest to boost their stats under the cover ofremoving"from the streets" a non-existent implement.

Sooooooo. What is an illegal gun, anyway?

Edited to Add: Oh, and stretching Terry, Mimms, and Baker as far as they can go, or perhaps as far as they can get away with.



Guys, if you OC on the seat or dashboard, keep the gun strapped in a holster. Let some statist cop pull it from the holster to run the serial number and he'll immediately be in violation of Arizona vs Hicks.

Briefly, in that case, a cop moved a stereo to read the serial number on the back or bottom without probable cause to believe the stereo was stolen. Thecop had only reasonable suspicion the stereowas stolen (notice the cop who runs your gun serial number does not even have reasonable suspicion--it is a total fishing expedition). The US Supreme Court said it violated the 4th Amendment for the cop to move the stereo to view the serial number.

I am not a lawyer. But,a cop taking a gun out of its holsterif the holster is lying on the car seat or dashboard is directly analogous to moving a stereo.

Arizona vs Hicks:

http://supreme.justia.com/us/480/321/case.html

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The silence is deafening...

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Nelson_Muntz wrote:

The silence is deafening...

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Reassuring and, well, predictable.

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Hmm, new people....

NovaCop10 wrote:

Back to this debate... ugh. During a traffic stop, an officer CAN seize a firearm if he wishes to do so, but only if that traffic stop was justified. The fundamental rules of Terry... reasonable suspicion that one is engaged in a criminal act (speeding for example) and that one is presently armed and dangerous (you have a loaded gun, you could be dangerous, he does not know you).

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You uh, you wouldn't happen to be giving out legal advice, would you?

Without something else to back this up, it looks like you're giving legal advice or counsel.

NovaCop10 wrote:

SNIP On a side note, please don't place your loaded handgun on your passenger seat as an effort to "openly carry" according to the law during a stop. I saw that happen last week, and it made for a scary situation for the officer, and I'm sure for the citizen as well.

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Is this acceptable?



If I seem rude, well, consider it your trial by fire. You've come in, and by nature of your posts and your screen name, claimed to be an authoritative expert, therefore, I would like your expert opinion.

Best part is that the SERPA covers the serial.

Edit: I fail at teh speling.

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I was not giving advice, only opinion. To answer some of the previous comments..
I did not mention anything about searching the car, only seizing that weapon in plain view for the purpose of safety and explained the legality of doing so. I think the comparison between seizing credit cards and handguns is a bit silly to post since we all know the differences between your VISA and Glock. Most of what you all posted deals with your own opinion on the matter, not the legality of it.

Can someone explain how it is illegal for an officer to seize an openly visible firearm during a traffic stop to which he stopped a motorist for a traffic infraction? I explained in my post how it is legal, and all I got in return was accusations of cops being arrogant, illegal seizures of other objects, and liberal opinions. If someone can explain the illegal nature of doing so, then I should email my legal instructor asap.

I do work for a large northern VA police agency, and do not want citizens to read the opinions on this site and get themselves in legal trouble. I am not against gun rights, I am actually pro gun rights and had a ccw permit before I was an officer.

Yes, that photo depicts a legal open carry, and maybe you should try to get a trademark for it.

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NovaCop10 wrote:

I was not giving advice, only opinion. To answer some of the previous comments..

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Fair enough. Gotta watch your butt around here, there's lawyers about. :shock:

Can someone explain how it is illegal for an officer to seize an openly visible firearm during a traffic stop to which he stopped a motorist for a traffic infraction?

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I would ask that you explain to me why it would be legal to seize any other form of property. Not to be flippant, but would you take someone's (fill in the blank) with little to no reason?

I explained in my post how it is legal, and all I got in return was accusations of cops being arrogant, illegal seizures of other objects, and liberal opinions.

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I had to pull up what you'd written, since I'm also fixing a laptop while I type this....

During a traffic stop, an officer CAN seize a firearm if he wishes to do so, but only if that traffic stop was justified. The fundamental rules of Terry... reasonable suspicion that one is engaged in a criminal act (speeding for example)

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AFAIK, and I'm sure someone will come in and argue with both of us, speeding is a civil infraction, not a criminal one.

If someone can explain the illegal nature of doing so, then I should email my legal instructor asap.

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Taking my property is a punitive measure for a crime I have not committed.

If we're doing pre-crime punitive measures... I won't even go there, because I need to do some registry editing on this laptop.

I do work for a large northern VA police agency,

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Not Fairfax County, is it?

(I) do not want citizens to read the opinions on this site and get themselves in legal trouble.

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We're a pretty sharp bunch, and we're pretty opinionated.

I think the debate could do us some good, if you're willing and able.

Could be a good learning experience for all.

I am not against gun rights, I am actually pro gun rights and had a ccw permit before I was an officer.

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Why'd you stop? (kidding! just some good natured ribbing)

Yes, that photo depicts a legal open carry, and maybe you should try to get a trademark for it.

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Thank you. I'm always good at coming up with inelegant, hack-job solutions that work really well.

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NovaCop10 wrote:

I am actually pro gun rights and had a ccw permit before I was an officer.

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Virginia does not issue ccw permits. Virginia issues CHP's.

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ABNO,

I see your argument about the infraction being civil, but I argue that it is a criminal stop. Even so, the main point of my argument is that it is a legal detention and that it is reasonable to assume someone is armed (plain view of firearm or the motorist admitting to having a firearm). With that combination, it would be legal to temporarily detain that firearm. It is not stretching Terry V Ohio at all. The purpose is not to investigate the firearm, but for officer safety (terry frisk rule), although most officers would make sure it's legally being carried. I'm not even saying that all officers would seize the gun temporarily or that they should, I'm just saying that it is legal to do so. It would be illegal for an officer to keep you longer on the basis of that open carry or to stop you for the sole purpose that you are open carrying. Seizing other forms of property during a traffic stop is an issue not dealing with my reasoning to why you can take a firearm during this instance. I won't even begin to get into that topic.

Not a fan of Fairfax County? ha. I won't say exactly where I work for obvious reasons. I will say that my department gives officers training specifically geared towards open carry after a few incidents have caught officers off guard and misinformed (there was a law in many jurisdictions stating that carrying a handgun was illegal without a permit that was repealed, but the repeal was never fully communicated to the police). Federal, state, and local laws change continuously and it's difficult at times to keep up.

Ha, I enjoy the opinions I read on here, and like the debate. That's why I keep coming back. I'm always up for a good debate and always respect the opinions of others. I agree with many aspects of open carrying and legal concealed carry (although I believe concealed carrying has many more advantages).

Ed, I understand VA is a CHP state, but I did not live in VA when I had my ccw (which I applied for on my 21st Bday).

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I could see reckless driving, evading and eluding, DUI, etc. as criminal, but a simple moving violation (simple speeding, improper lane change/failure to signal, driving too slowly)...none of these conjure up an image of an orange jumpsuit as a county/state resident. They may be a brief detention for a warning or summons issue, but they are civil infractions and certainly not misdemeanors or felonies.

As for Terry, the "and dangerous" is a prerequisite condition, not an optional element, i.e. "armed and maybe dangerous." I would argue that if the individual is in obvious compliance with the law regarding carry method, that the "and dangerous" stipulation has clearly not been met. Provided the driver doesn't put you in a dangerous situation (handling the weapon during the stop), in what danger could an officer possibly be? A patrol officer could easily draw and fire if endangered (even retreat for cover as necessary) with the driver still buckled into a seat, unable to easily turn around, vehicle off, etc. You wouldn't seize a Kitchen Aid hand mixer if it were in the front seat, so why a legally carried firearm? (naysayers: that mixer would hurt if I clocked someone with it)

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AIC,

I can see your argument and agree with you that there is a gray area surrounding the seriousness of a traffic infraction when it comes to Terry. However, you can still be placed in cuffs and transported to jail for running a red light (if you fail to sign the summons, if there's a belief you may disregard the summons, etc.). I argue that a traffic detention would apply to Terry, especially since you can use a Terry frisk for someone who stop that you even reasonably suspect has committed a crime.

The only issue about a traffic stop is that the officer has absolutely no idea who is sitting behind that wheel when he or she walks up to the window. I wish there was a way to tell that a person who is open carrying a firearm is not dangerous. For the most part most citizens open carrying (just like most, if not all, of you on this site are law abiding citizens who pose no threat). Your argument that an officer would be able to easily return fire while writing a ticket is untrue. With a bulky gun belt and tricky retention holster combined with the process of running a license and writing a ticket leaves police extremely vulnerable.

On a side note, personally I have never encountered an open carry firearm during a stop. I have encountered concealed carry and found firearms hidden after a search of a car. However, I believe if I encountered a driver open carrying, I would:
Request backup, have the backup officer keep an eye on the driver at the window and speak with him/her while I run the license/issue the ticket or warning. Of course if they have a VCDL sticker.. they are getting the ticket. J/K.

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NovaCop10 wrote:

Of course if they have a VCDL sticker.. they are getting the ticket. J/K.

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Explain please.

Yata hey

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Grapeshot wrote:

NovaCop10 wrote:

Of course if they have a VCDL sticker.. they are getting the ticket. J/K.

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Explain please.

Yata hey

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+1????????????????????????

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NovaCop10 wrote:

if I encountered a driver open carrying, I would:
Request backup, have the backup officer keep an eye on the driver at the window and speak with him/her while I run the license/issue the ticket or warning. Of course if they have a VCDL sticker.. they are getting the ticket.

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I still smell the new polish on your shoes... either you are a brand new rookie cop, not in Fairfax County, Fairfax City, Vienna, Herndon, Falls Church (well.. maybe there.. lol) or Loudoun, or you are not a cop at all.. and IF you are, I smell trouble the first time you stop an OpenCarrier that knows the laws and his rights. My Bull@#$% meter is not quite pegged.. but it's on the right side of the halfway mark.

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ed wrote:

NovaCop10 wrote:

if I encountered a driver open carrying, I would:
Request backup, have the backup officer keep an eye on the driver at the window and speak with him/her while I run the license/issue the ticket or warning. Of course if they have a VCDL sticker.. they are getting the ticket.

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I still smell the new polish on your shoes... either you are a brand new rookie cop, not in Fairfax County, Fairfax City, Vienna, Herndon, Falls Church (well.. maybe there.. lol) or Loudoun, or you are not a cop at all.. and IF you are, I smell trouble the first time you stop an OpenCarrier that knows the laws and his rights. My Bull@#$% meter is not quite pegged.. but it's on the right side of the halfway mark.

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Just had mine recalibrated.

Yata hey