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Thread: Would you have killed the man in my situation?

  1. #1
    Regular Member greengum's Avatar
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    I just got back from the PRK. While I was down there I stayed at hotels from South OC to the Valley and in between for business. I ALWAYS bring my trusty revolver named Lucy, but I do not OC very often for fear of a 626.9 violation. I do keep my gun with me in my room just in case.

    My last day in Kali starts off with me checking into a hojo in the City of Orange. My gun is in my trunk. While I am waiting for my room key I hear some yelling. I turn around to notice a gentleman wearing only a pair of pants. He is drenched in sweat and clearly aggravated. He enters the lobby and starts yelling at the clerk about his room key while also making sure he let everyone know in a 1/2 mile radius the "he don't give a @#$%!" He is standing about 1 foot from me and is staring at me. I said to him "Hi". I figured saying hi would be better then ignoring the wack job. He didn't think so.


    I get my key and leave to the store assuming the clerk would be calling the cops. I return an hour later. I get all my luggage together ***editted** holstered my gun to OC from my car to my room. No crazy guy in sight and I remember thinking what an idiot I was to openly break a bad law. I get to my room to find it has the random chemical cleaning odor no I prop the door open to let it air out. I grab my phone to start the 1000 calls I needed to make right outside of my room.

    Well about 20 minutes goes by, and I light a smoke to get my addiction out of the way before I get settled into my room. It is about 4 in the afternoon. I hear someone coming up the stairs and sure enough its the loony toons gentleman from earlier. This time I am on the end of his rants. I guess by saying hi to him earlier offended him. As he closes the gap between us in about 5 seconds I realize I have no @#$%ing clue what I should do if things got a lot more complicated. I have never had any training but I remmeber the first thing that came to my mind was to make sure he could not make a reasonable attempt to take my gun from me.

    Things got worse real fast. I think he was reciting lyrics from an old 80's gangsta rap song when he does the old "huff and puff". I consciencly kept my non gun side facing him so if @#$% went down I could basically straight hand him to keep him away from my gun. He starts hitting me in my back, not like a fist punch in a bar fight but more like a taughting slap to provoke a fight but with enough force to show he was serious.

    I was focused on his hands to make sure he didnt have a weapon. Instantly picked up on the odor of booze, and also that he was having troubles standing. He raised his hands like a boxer at the start of a round. The moment of truth has arrived. What is your move?

    The whole time I was surprised I never got the adrenalin rush you usually recieve in high stressed situations when the good old fight or flight kicks in. But I was 100% aware of everything going on around with pin point precision but was perfectly calm at the same time.

    I decided that (maybe a really bad move) I would try to reason with this guy in a mellow but direct tone as to not aggrivate the situation even more. The thought of instantly drawing my gun and acting all swat team on him would not do much good, meaning I figured overly aggresive yelling and movements would only make the situation worse being he was clearly drunk and half a bubble off. On the other hand I still have no idea what this guy is capable of.

    I tell him in a very calm voice that he needs to go find somewhere else to play, and that if he wants to strike me again he would have deadly consequences. I also told him that I don't have an issue with him and I only want to get some sleep. While I said this I got a gap of about 4 feet between us. I make sure he see's my holstered gun. I then inform him that I hope this misunderstanding could be resolved without having to get a funeral involved.


    As I recount this story it sounds to me like I was never in a really serious situation but is all happened within seconds.

    My somewhat rational plan worked! He had a moment of clarity when he saw my gun. He back off waaaaaay off. If he had lunged forward I'm very sure that everyone involved would be having a really bad day. He waked away from me in a dejected posture and informed me he would be calling his contacts at the CIA to run a background check on me.


    Overall I really don't know how to feel about how I handled myself. I remember thinking that I prolly would have found my way back to my room somehow and call the police hoping they would come to rescue me if I was unarmed, and being scared to death the whole time. I also believe that is was the knowledge of me being able to effectively killing him in seconds is why I remained calm. I really don't want to have to kill another man unless I dont have any other viable options but there is 0 doubt in my mind if he had made a move to my gun or continued and escalate in striking me I would have.

    I will say, not being a victim is a pretty good feeling.

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    I am haveing some trouble following the details of your story butthree things stand out. No one got hurt, no one got killed and you are not in jail awaiting bail and having to find an attorney. With that conclusion you handled it well. Now his buddies in the CIA may run a background check on yout but if they don't find anything....:P

    I may have reported him to the desk clerk and ask him to call the cops but that would probably wind up withme having to answer a lot of questions and when/if I told them aboutmy gunI would still probably wind up arrested. You showed restraint and is a great asset in a situation like you encountered.

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    Regular Member flagellum's Avatar
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    I thought that went quite well. I've always felt that is you don't have to hurt someone, don't. It also seems that OC was a factor in getting the guy to back off, which is good to hear.
    "You need only reflect that one of the best ways to get yourself a reputation as a dangerous citizen these days is to go about repeating the very phrases which our founding fathers used in the struggle for independence."
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    Greengum, My two cents worth…
    First, I am a Vietnam vet from the 60’s …and yes I have seen combat.
    There is never a good time to take the life of another human being…
    You made a good choice by not engaging the drunk…
    Just a short story of something that happened to me a little while back…
    I was in my shorts and T shirt walking my little dog down the street…two young (19-20) yo Mexican street kids approached me carrying there back packs and looking all rumpled and such…walked up to me and…..said…
    Guy1; give me cigarette
    Me; don’t smoke sorry
    Guy2; give change
    Me ; no money sorry
    Guy1; give watch
    Me: you guys need to just move along….
    Guy 1: (reaches into a bed roll and from the middle starts to pull out a piece of pipe) he stood about 3 feet in front of me with his buddy at his side….
    Guy1: I take what I want..
    I reached over grabbing his hand, twisting it backwards and an elbow strike to the exposed elbow, braking it, then taking him to the ground… a short kick to the second guy sending him running as I kicked his buddy in the head so he wouldn’t get up….
    I then called 911…explained what happened. It took just minutes for the cops to arrive…
    After a few minutes of questions and answers, a sergeant placed me under arrest….
    I ask why? He asks me how many of them were there …I said two…cop; were you surrounded. Me; just two of them with that pipe, cop; was any one behind you?.,. me; no ..cop why didn’t you turn and run? Me; I don’t run from anything…
    I was arrested, booked and brought before a judge…I got a lawyer and went to court for, aggravated assault and battery with special circumstances’…guy1, had a broken wrist, torn elbow joint, broken jaw and loss of vision in one eye…
    Yes, I was carrying a hand gun at the time; I also had my CCW and Id with me…a non issue…
    After a few months I was called into the DA’s office by my lawyer, where all the charges were dropped and my gun and CCW was returned to me with a thank you….
    I spent 2 nights in jail, and $8675.00 in attorney fees…. And went home….
    Just think what it would have cost if had shot the guy…….
    Guy1, got 3 years in jail for his attack on me….


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    Shooting an unarmed fellow who has punched you is pretty dicey. The prosecutor and jurors may have a hard time relating to the situation, and may have little empathy. I am glad you were able to resolve it without it going further.

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    Under the circumstances, I believe you handled the situation about as well as could have been expected.

    To answer your question, I would not have shot the guy either.

    Allow me to preface the rest of this by stating IANAL, so I'm not sure about the potential legal ramifications, but I think you would have been in trouble. What I do recall is from my CCW training class.

    Along with the usual indoctrination against OC, he did have a few points I think were valid. He explained to us that a firearm is a lethal weapon. It should not be used to defend yourself against a non-lethal attack(fist fight) unless you have reasonable suspicion/justification that the person is a bonafide walking lethal weapon.

    I was told(I'm not sure about the legal validity about this) even if you were physically assaulted, you can not draw your weapon without a justifiable fear for your life. Some belligerent drunk guy taking swings at you is not likely going to make you fear for your life.

    I think you handled the situation very well, and your situational awareness was spot on(making sure you had your non-gun side towards him, and putting distance between the two of you). That being said, as soon as he struck you, I think you would have been justified in knocking his ass out cold and calling the police to have him arrested.

    On the other hand, had you done so and there were no witnesses around to corroborate your side of the story, things could have gotten dicey(especially since you were carrying). I applaud you for showing restraint and being able to de-escalate the situation without violence.



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    I wouldn't have drawn or fired either.

    I am confused however, were you inside your room, right outside your room, or someplace further away? From your story it seems you were right outside? If that were the case I would have backed into the room and closed the door, locking it.

    If you were in your room, I would have probably been more forceful ala Dons story, told him to leave, made sure he knew I was armed, and on his next strike to me, broken his nose and taken him to the ground.

    If you were someplace further from your room, I would have probably made it aware to him that I was armed as soon as possible. Failing his common sense kicking in at that point, I would have tried talking him down while trying to retreat to either my room, or someplace more public, whichever is closest.

    I agree with everybody else, you did well in restraining your actions, and think that use of deadly force would have ended badly for you, at least in the short-medium term. Hopefully had it escalated to that, the clerk from earlier could have recounted his interaction with the drunk and possibly helped your case. I can only hypothesize on what I would have done, and everything changes when it's hitting the fan in real time instead of armchair quarterbacking, so who knows.

    The tricky part in any confrontation is your being allowed to use reasonable force to defend yourself. Breaking a nose is almost always a good first step in physical defense, it requires only 7 lbs of force, and invokes pain, eye watering reducing vision, difficulty breathing, and a tell tale blood trail.

    Just my 2 cents.

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    even this "disparity of force" is a misnomer,, im 6/1 175, trim and fit, but im not a trained fighter...

    i really dont think i have to wait until ive been HIT once or alot,, when 1 good punch can knock a guy out!!

    i think a gun ,, "shown up front", OCd, strong side, and "early on" in the "confrontation",, that i dont need to get attacked,, that its a "clear cut case" of "dont you dare escalate any more sh5t with me"!

    you did exactly what YOU needed to do,, if any thing i would way you gave him too many chances to get to and hurt you.

    he was drunk,, and you measured his danger to you just about right,,,

    thanks the the story,, i have one too that happened in calif about 1984, but ive never told it yet.

    probably a parking lot robbery, but i let him see the gun at about 25 ft away and he turned to go the other way.
    EMNofSeattle wrote: Your idea of freedom terrifies me. So you are actually right. I am perfectly happy with what you call tyranny.....

    If ever a time should come, when vain and aspiring men shall possess the highest seats in Government, our country will stand in need of its experienced patriots to prevent its ruin.

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    Regular Member Vegas Rick's Avatar
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    "even this "disparity of force" is a misnomer,, im 6/1 175, trim and fit, but im not a trained fighter...

    i really dont think i have to wait until ive been HIT once or alot,, when 1 good punch can knock a guy out!!

    i think a gun ,, "shown up front", OCd, strong side, and "early on" in the "confrontation",, that i dont need to get attacked,, that its a "clear cut case" of "dont you dare escalate any more sh5t with me"!"

    That's the primary reason I switched from CC to OC. Even unloaded OC is a big deterrent, IMHO.
    "Let your gun be your companion on all your walks."
    -- Thomas Jefferson
    who might have wished he carried my .45ACP G-36 1+6+1

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    Rick, I think your reasoning is solid regarding OC verses CC it many cases…I do know if I CC and get into a situation where I may be threatened and open my jacket to show off my shoulder holster it can be construed as “brandishing a weapon…..OC works fine as long as you don’t put your hand on it…
    Just my opinion….

    Don

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    There's no law about brandishing a firearm in this state.

    The closest thing is:

    NRS 202.320 Drawing deadly weapon in threatening manner.

    1. Unless a greater penalty is provided in NRS 202.287, a person having, carrying or procuring from another person any dirk, dirk-knife, sword, sword cane, pistol, gun or other deadly weapon, who, in the presence of two or more persons, draws or exhibits any of such deadly weapons in a rude, angry or threatening manner not in necessary self-defense, or who in any manner unlawfully uses that weapon in any fight or quarrel, is guilty of a misdemeanor.

    2. A sheriff, deputy sheriff, marshal, constable or other peace officer shall not be held to answer, under the provisions of subsection 1, for drawing or exhibiting any of the weapons mentioned therein while in the lawful discharge of his duties.
    So merely opening your jacket to display a concealed firearm would not be criminal in any way. The law requires that you draw or exhibit the weapon. And exposing an otherwise concealed firearm is no more "exhibiting" than open carry.

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    doninvegas wrote:
    After a few minutes of questions and answers, a sergeant placed me under arrest….
    I ask why? He asks me how many of them were there …I said two…cop; were you surrounded. Me; just two of them with that pipe, cop; was any one behind you?.,. me; no ..cop why didn’t you turn and run? Me; I don’t run from anything…
    In Utah in you are in a place legally, meaning you are not tresspassing you do not have to retreat!

    It is easier to just give the guy $20 or a $100 watch then some lawyer over $8,000!, in the State that event happened in! That Cop must hate Law Adbiding Citizens and and Vets who protect themselves! That Cop must have thought if more people were like this guy, I would be out of a job!
    Utah Certified Concealed Firearms Permit Instructor
    NRA Pistol Instructor & RSO

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    timf343 wrote:
    There's no law about brandishing a firearm in this state.

    The closest thing is:
    NRS 202.320 Drawing deadly weapon in threatening manner.

    1. Unless a greater penalty is provided in NRS 202.287, a person having, carrying or procuring from another person any dirk, dirk-knife, sword, sword cane, pistol, gun or other deadly weapon, who, in the presence of two or more persons, draws or exhibits any of such deadly weapons in a rude, angry or threatening manner not in necessary self-defense, or who in any manner unlawfully uses that weapon in any fight or quarrel, is guilty of a misdemeanor.

    2. A sheriff, deputy sheriff, marshal, constable or other peace officer shall not be held to answer, under the provisions of subsection 1, for drawing or exhibiting any of the weapons mentioned therein while in the lawful discharge of his duties.
    So merely opening your jacket to display a concealed firearm would not be criminal in any way. The law requires that you draw or exhibit the weapon. And exposing an otherwise concealed firearm is no more "exhibiting" than open carry.
    Thanks for the info Tim, I never could find it in the laws ether...Just something one of the Chiefs told me when i ask the question of a CC wepon being exposed....

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    Pistol Pete Utah wrote:
    doninvegas wrote:
    After a few minutes of questions and answers, a sergeant placed me under arrest….
    I ask why? He asks me how many of them were there …I said two…cop; were you surrounded. Me; just two of them with that pipe, cop; was any one behind you?.,. me; no ..cop why didn’t you turn and run? Me; I don’t run from anything…
    In Utah in you are in a place legally, meaning you are not tresspassing you do not have to retreat!

    It is easier to just give the guy $20 or a $100 watch then some lawyer over $8,000!, in the State that event happened in! That Cop must hate Law Adbiding Citizens and and Vets who protect themselves! That Cop must have thought if more people were like this guy, I would be out of a job!
    It was a Rolex and i wasn't going to give it up...I think the cop was mad because i never told him i was cc, and the fact that i kicked the guy when he was down...I think the cop just dident like my attitude....he was kind of young and Mexican/American...

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    greengum wrote:
    Overall I really don't know how to feel about how I handled myself. I remember thinking that I prolly would have found my way back to my room somehow and call the police hoping they would come to rescue me if I was unarmed, and being scared to death the whole time. I also believe that is was the knowledge of me being able to effectively killing him in seconds is why I remained calm. I really don't want to have to kill another man unless I dont have any other viable options but there is 0 doubt in my mind if he had made a move to my gun or continued and escalate in striking me I would have.

    I will say, not being a victim is a pretty good feeling.
    Well done. Fully in compliance with HankT's Postulate of Civilian Self-Defense© :

    It is a bad strategy to shoot an unarmed person.

    Failure to follow the wisdom and guidanceimplicit inHPCSD© results in trauma, regret and various legal, moral and psychic costs. All of which, you avoided, gg. Good work.

    Remember, HPCSD© always applies. Even with a drunken CIA wannabe.

    Did you report the assault by him upon you? If not, why not?

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    As a CCW instructor I get asked a thousand senarios...what should I do or what should I have done? No one really knows what they will do when that moment arrives. No matter how aware you try to be, if its upon you...you're going to depend on instinct. If you've trained properly that instinctive behavior, chances are, will serve you. The rule of "retreat" was used against you. Maybe, just maybe, you would have been justified in drawing your gun in the face of a deadly weapon (the pipe). This many times neutralizes the assalant when he faces a superior weapon. As you drew....you could have started a retreat....covering your back so to speak because you couldn't know if your retreat could have been done safely and that IS a condition of "retreat". Chances are they both would have turned and at least walked away. Then you should have called 911 and make sure you do it before the assalant does it first, accusing you of threatening them with a gun. The police obviously made a bad decision in your case...something that's been happening way too much lately. I know of many inocents and those who were the victims being arrested. I don't know what the cops are thinking when they behave this way. Sorry if I sound like a monday morning quarterback but I have the advantage of being able to think about it for a while...something you didn't have. The "castle doctrine" would have kept you from being arrested. The Nevada legislature was supposed to consider it in their past sesson....using the Texas law as a guideline. I don't know what became of it.

    By the way this reply was to doninvegas.....sorry ifI clicked the wrong "reply" button.


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    shooting basics wrote:
    As a CCW instructor I get asked a thousand senarios...what should I do or what should I have done? No one really knows what they will do when that moment arrives. No matter how aware you try to be, if its upon you...you're going to depend on instinct. If you've trained properly that instinctive behavior, chances are, will serve you. The rule of "retreat" was used against you. Maybe, just maybe, you would have been justified in drawing your gun in the face of a deadly weapon (the pipe). This many times neutralizes the assalant when he faces a superior weapon. As you drew....you could have started a retreat....covering your back so to speak because you couldn't know if your retreat could have been done safely and that IS a condition of "retreat". Chances are they both would have turned and at least walked away. Then you should have called 911 and make sure you do it before the assalant does it first, accusing you of threatening them with a gun. The police obviously made a bad decision in your case...something that's been happening way too much lately. I know of many inocents and those who were the victims being arrested. I don't know what the cops are thinking when they behave this way. Sorry if I sound like a monday morning quarterback but I have the advantage of being able to think about it for a while...something you didn't have. The "castle doctrine" would have kept you from being arrested. The Nevada legislature was supposed to consider it in their past sesson....using the Texas law as a guideline. I don't know what became of it.
    I am sure you are right...we do what is needed...I am over 65 and I just figured these little punks were just going to take what they wanted...2 tours with the Navy SF tought me....no one takes what is mine...with out a discussion....

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    Ahhh, I was wondering when Hank would chime in. I ALMOST got to the bottom of the page before I saw that ever present doofus statement. Thanks for the daily chuckle buddy.

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