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Thread: Close to having to shoot a man

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    Regular Member greengum's Avatar
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    I just got back from the PRK. While I was down there I stayed at hotels from South OC to the Valley and in between for business. I ALWAYS bring my trusty revolver named Lucy, but I do not OC very often for fear of a 626.9 violation. I do keep my gun with me in my room just in case.

    My last day in Kali starts off with me checking into a hojo in the City of Orange. My gun is in my trunk. While I am waiting for my room key I hear some yelling. I turn around to notice a gentleman wearing only a pair of pants. He is drenched in sweat and clearly aggravated. He enters the lobby and starts yelling at the clerk about his room key while also making sure he let everyone know in a 1/2 mile radius the "he don't give a @#$%!" He is standing about 1 foot from me and is staring at me. I said to him "Hi". I figured saying hi would be better then ignoring the wack job. He didn't think so.


    I get my key and leave to the store assuming the clerk would be calling the cops. I return an hour later.I am now OCing. I get to my room to find it has the random chemical cleaning odor no I prop the door open to let it air out. I grab my phone to start the 1000 calls I needed to make right outside of my room.

    Well about 20 minutes goes by, and I light a smoke to get my addiction out of the way before I get settled into my room. It is about 4 in the afternoon. I hear someone coming up the stairs and sure enough its the loony toons gentleman from earlier. This time I am on the end of his rants. I guess by saying hi to him earlier offended him. As he closes the gap between us in about 5 seconds I realize I have no @#$%ing clue what I should do if things got a lot more complicated. I have never had any training but I remmeber the first thing that came to my mind was to make sure he could not make a reasonable attempt to take my gun from me.

    Things got worse real fast. I think he was reciting lyrics from an old 80's gangsta rap song when he does the old "huff and puff". I consciencly kept my non gun side facing him so if @#$% went down I could basically straight hand him to keep him away from my gun. He starts hitting me in my back, not like a fist punch in a bar fight but more like a taughting slap to provoke a fight but with enough force to show he was serious.

    I was focused on his hands to make sure he didnt have a weapon. Instantly picked up on the odor of booze, and also that he was having troubles standing. He raised his hands like a boxer at the start of a round. The moment of truth has arrived. What is your move?

    The whole time I was surprised I never got the adrenalin rush you usually recieve in high stressed situations when the good old fight or flight kicks in. But I was 100% aware of everything going on around with pin point precision but was perfectly calm at the same time.

    I decided that (maybe a really bad move) I would try to reason with this guy in a mellow but direct tone as to not aggrivate the situation even more. The thought of instantly drawing my gun and acting all swat team on him would not do much good, meaning I figured overly aggresive yelling and movements would only make the situation worse being he was clearly drunk and half a bubble off. On the other hand I still have no idea what this guy is capable of.

    I tell him in a very calm voice that he needs to go find somewhere else to play, and that if he wants to strike me again he would have deadly consequences. I also told him that I don't have an issue with him and I only want to get some sleep. While I said this I got a gap of about 4 feet between us. I make sure he see's my holstered gun. I then inform him that I hope this misunderstanding could be resolved without having to get a funeral involved.


    As I recount this story it sounds to me like I was never in a really serious situation but is all happened within seconds.

    My somewhat rational plan worked! He had a moment of clarity when he saw my gun. He back off waaaaaay off. If he had lunged forward I'm very sure that everyone involved would be having a really bad day. He waked away from me in a dejected posture and informed me he would be calling his contacts at the CIA to run a background check on me.


    Overall I really don't know how to feel about how I handled myself. I remember thinking that I prolly would have found my way back to my room somehow and call the police hoping they would come to rescue me if I was unarmed, and being scared to death the whole time. I also believe that is was the knowledge of me being able to effectively killing him in seconds is why I remained calm. I really don't want to have to kill another man unless I dont have any other viable options but there is 0 doubt in my mind if he had made a move to my gun or continued and escalate in striking me I would have.

    I will say, not being a victim is a pretty good feeling.

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    Regular Member 1245A Defender's Avatar
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    EMNofSeattle wrote: Your idea of freedom terrifies me. So you are actually right. I am perfectly happy with what you call tyranny.....

    If ever a time should come, when vain and aspiring men shall possess the highest seats in Government, our country will stand in need of its experienced patriots to prevent its ruin.

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  3. #3
    Regular Member greengum's Avatar
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    Done!


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    Really interesting story, because it raises a lot of questions, including whether a drunk individual poses a direct risk to life and limb. Was there an immediate need to use deadly force, even if he attacked you?

    In California for example, there is an assumption and requirement for a citizen to retreat if possible and use alternative force.

    If you had shot him, you'd probably be sitting in jail in most states, unfortunately.

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    Close only counts in horseshoes and hand grenades.

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    Anti-Saldana Freedom Fighter bigtoe416's Avatar
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    Nice work greengum. You handled yourself in a way that diffused the situation without anybody having to get hurt. You can't hope for anything better than that. Well done.

    My only question for the group is whether or not greengum should have called the police in this situation. We've heard before that the first to call the police after a confrontation is usually perceived as the good guy. In this situation the drink man probably didn't have the state of mind to do something as clever as call the police and act innocent. Obviously greengum didn't need to contact authorities because he was satisfied with the end result.

    Pace wrote:
    In California for example, there is an assumption and requirement for a citizen to retreat if possible and use alternative force.
    Is there a legal citation for this? I hear this a lot but can't recall ever seeing a citation.



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    I do not believe there is a duty to retreat. However, if one does not, it looks bad in court. YMMV, SS4D.

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    did you have plenty of time to go back in your room and lock the door? thats what the law would probably say. to avoid any confrontation. and more then likely you might have only gotten your ass kicked not killed so maybe excessive force from you if you were to shoot him.

  9. #9
    Regular Member greengum's Avatar
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    Retreating back to my room was not really an option. I had it propped open with a chair. I never considered flat running either. It would be like Ray Lewis vs. Archie Bunker. My reasoning and actions were based on personal beliefs and not on legal justification. I figured if I made it very clear I would kill him if he was physical with me again I would at least be justified in my own mind, and if maintaining personal liberty and my own life to unjustified outside threats and physical attacks is a punishable offense then something is seriously wrong.

    Imagine this guy did that to a cop? or an old lady? or a guy in a wheelchair? or your daughter? When does it ever get justified? Aren't all men created equal that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the persuit of happiness? Should a woman wait for a stranger to penetrate her before she fights back with deadly force to make sure he had an intent to rape?

    Most of us here OC and these situations almost never come up. We all say the mantra's of why we carry, mostly for personal defense and some for political statements. I mean, ask yourself honestly in a matter of seconds in the heat of the moment, do you pull the trigger? If not what would justify each one of you personally to do it? Where is your proverbial line in the sand?



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    Regular Member greengum's Avatar
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    Pace wrote:
    Really interesting story, because it raises a lot of questions, including whether a drunk individual poses a direct risk to life and limb. Was there an immediate need to use deadly force, even if he attacked you?

    In California for example, there is an assumption and requirement for a citizen to retreat if possible and use alternative force.

    If you had shot him, you'd probably be sitting in jail in most states, unfortunately.
    My only option would be deadly force. It is not like I have a multitude of options at my disposal. I don't carry tazers or pepper spray or a billy club, nor can I attempt a roundhouse kick!



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    California doesnt have any duty to retreat law. We just went over that in criminology class last week. If they present a clear threat to life or limb then you can shoot them in order to end the threat.

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    poothrowingape wrote:
    California doesnt have any duty to retreat law. We just went over that in criminology class last week. If they present a clear threat to life or limb then you can shoot them in order to end the threat.
    This is true however in my opinion, youshould at least make aminimal effort to walk away from the situationor at leasttake somesteps to avoid the situation.

    I am not saying that you should place yourself in any danger, but it looks better in both civil court and in the eyes of the police/detectives/DA if you made aneffort to avoid the situation.

    There are of course some situations where this is not possible (in your own home, you are cornered by a violent susp. ect.) but if it looks like you escalated the situation or PUT YOURSELF into that situation, you make your self more vulnerable to criminal and civil action.


    ,


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    State Researcher HankT's Avatar
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    greengum wrote:
    Overall I really don't know how to feel about how I handled myself. I remember thinking that I prolly would have found my way back to my room somehow and call the police hoping they would come to rescue me if I was unarmed, and being scared to death the whole time. I also believe that is was the knowledge of me being able to effectively killing him in seconds is why I remained calm. I really don't want to have to kill another man unless I dont have any other viable options but there is 0 doubt in my mind if he had made a move to my gun or continued and escalate in striking me I would have.

    I will say, not being a victim is a pretty good feeling.
    Well done. Fully in compliance with HankT's Postulate of Civilian Self-Defense© :

    It is a bad strategy to shoot an unarmed person.

    Failure to follow the wisdom and guidanceimplicit inHPCSD© results in trauma, regret and various legal, moral and psychic costs. All of which, you avoided, gg. Good work.

    Remember, HPCSD© always applies. Even with a drunken CIA wannabe.

    Did you report the assault by him upon you?

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    Regular Member greengum's Avatar
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    No, it really didn't even cross my mind to contact the police. I was not about to go through the whole deal with the cops and be questioned and maybe even charged. I have a few life rules I live by. One of them is to almost never talk to the police unless I need their help to protect my Rights. My 2nd did that job for free and without attitude. The police would have just been drama. But that has really no bearing on why I made this thread.


    This should be a thought exercise we all should do.

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    You are correct, my apologies. California however does require you to use only sufficient force. Ie, shooting someone not armed, will end you in Jail.

    I am not as familiar with California criminal code as much as I am for some other states, mainly NY, AZ, NV, CO.

    poothrowingape wrote:
    California doesnt have any duty to retreat law. We just went over that in criminology class last week. If they present a clear threat to life or limb then you can shoot them in order to end the threat.

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    Makes me think you just made this up. Anyone with half a brain would have realized that the other possibility would be that he would call the police and said you were a raving nutcase with a gun, and then they'd ask why you didnt call the police....



    greengum wrote:
    No, it really didn't even cross my mind to contact the police. I was not about to go through the whole deal with the cops and be questioned and maybe even charged. I have a few life rules I live by. One of them is to almost never talk to the police unless I need their help to protect my Rights. My 2nd did that job for free and without attitude. The police would have just been drama. But that has really no bearing on why I made this thread.


    This should be a thought exercise we all should do.

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    Regular Member greengum's Avatar
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    This did happen at Howard Johnsons on Katella and the 55 freeway this weekend.

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    Regular Member greengum's Avatar
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    The reason I suggested that this be a thought exercise for everyone else is the fact that before this I didn't know where I would stand.

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    Anti-Saldana Freedom Fighter bigtoe416's Avatar
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    Pace wrote:
    You are correct, my apologies. California however does require you to use only sufficient force. Ie, shooting someone not armed, will end you in Jail.
    Citation?

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    Campaign Veteran marshaul's Avatar
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    Pace wrote:
    In California for example, there is an assumption and requirement for a citizen to retreat if possible and use alternative force.
    Please don't spread FUD.

    Quite the contrary, California has a reasonably strong castle law.

    California Penal Code § 198.5:
    Any person using force intended or likely to cause death or
    great bodily injury within his or her residence shall be presumed to
    have held a reasonable fear of imminent peril of death or great
    bodily injury to self, family, or a member of the household when that
    force is used against another person, not a member of the family or
    household, who unlawfully and forcibly enters or has unlawfully and
    forcibly entered the residence and the person using the force knew or
    had reason to believe that an unlawful and forcible entry occurred.

    As used in this section, great bodily injury means a significant
    or substantial physical injury.
    http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/s...d.php?t=273331

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    Campaign Veteran marshaul's Avatar
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    Also this deals with situations outside the home:

    California Penal Code § 197:
    Homicide is also justifiable when committed by any person in
    any of the following cases:
    1. When resisting any attempt to murder any person, or to commit a
    felony, or to do some great bodily injury upon any person; or,
    2. When committed in defense of habitation, property, or person,
    against one who manifestly intends or endeavors, by violence or
    surprise, to commit a felony, or against one who manifestly intends
    and endeavors, in a violent, riotous or tumultuous manner, to enter
    the habitation of another for the purpose of offering violence to any
    person therein; or,
    3. When committed in the lawful defense of such person, or of a
    wife or husband, parent, child, master, mistress, or servant of such
    person, when there is reasonable ground to apprehend a design to
    commit a felony or to do some great bodily injury, and imminent
    danger of such design being accomplished; but such person, or the
    person in whose behalf the defense was made, if he was the assailant
    or engaged in mutual combat, must really and in good faith have
    endeavored to decline any further struggle before the homicide was
    committed; or,
    4. When necessarily committed in attempting, by lawful ways and
    means, to apprehend any person for any felony committed, or in
    lawfully suppressing any riot, or in lawfully keeping and preserving
    the peace.
    In fact, not only do we have no "duty to retreat", Californians are legally allowed to come to the aid of fellow citizens in danger, with lethal force if necessary, even when the defender's life is not in danger, and in fact may be put in greater danger in order to assist the victim of a violent felony.

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    I was focused on his hands to make sure he didnt have a weapon. Instantly picked up on the odor of booze, and also that he was having troubles standing. He raised his hands like a boxer at the start of a round. The moment of truth has arrived. What is your move?
    So you shot an unarmed man who was too drunk to even stand up and want to call it self defense. If so please do not tell that to anyone. Maybe you left out the part about him weighing 400 pounds and you were afraid he was going to all on you and squish you. You did well by walking away but they way you have described it there is no way you would have been justified in shooting him even if he had charged you.Even in aCastle Doctine scenario the amout of force usedmust be proportional to the danger. That is why you shouldn't shoot someone who is knocking on your doorin the middle of the afternoon unless you know they are BG's.

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    Regular Member OPS MARINE's Avatar
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    Wonderful job!! I am glad that neither you or he became a physically injured party. I hope you don't get assaulted like that again, but if you do, this clearly shows you exercise good judgment.

    I guess it's not really anyone's reaction to flat out run...but it is an option. I would if I had to.
    "Most people respect the badge. Everybody... respects the gun."

  24. #24
    Regular Member greengum's Avatar
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    My point is that situations like this are not black and white. There are so many variables that when it comes down to it. Even someone who is drunk can kill you just the same. As far as the whole unarmed argument some are using, all I can say is a couple good punches from a grown man at the right place will cause serious damage and even death.

    But like I said earlier, my biggest fear was him going after my weapon. Even the law is vague. How many punches must I take? What if he tackles me? Must he draw blood on me? Should I stand there and get beaten up or worse because I should be afraid of possible prosocution by one side or a beating on the other? If he would not have stopped when i threatened him I would have chosen option 3. Defend myself on both fronts and hope that I was rightious in my actions.

    I can say that if it had escalated I would not have an issue defending myself from an attacker. This is stuff people learn in Kindergarten. Don't hit others, don't take what is not yours. These are not some advanced concepts. If he is striking me with no intention of stopping I would have not lost a bunch of sleep in firing on him. I warned him, made sure he saw the gun and he made the right decision to leave.






  25. #25
    State Researcher HankT's Avatar
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    greengum wrote:
    HankT wrote:
    greengum wrote:
    Overall I really don't know how to feel about how I handled myself. I remember thinking that I prolly would have found my way back to my room somehow and call the police hoping they would come to rescue me if I was unarmed, and being scared to death the whole time. I also believe that is was the knowledge of me being able to effectively killing him in seconds is why I remained calm. I really don't want to have to kill another man unless I dont have any other viable options but there is 0 doubt in my mind if he had made a move to my gun or continued and escalate in striking me I would have.

    I will say, not being a victim is a pretty good feeling.
    Well done. Fully in compliance with HankT's Postulate of Civilian Self-Defense© :

    It is a bad strategy to shoot an unarmed person.

    Failure to follow the wisdom and guidanceimplicit inHPCSD© results in trauma, regret and various legal, moral and psychic costs. All of which, you avoided, gg. Good work.

    Remember, HPCSD© always applies. Even with a drunken CIA wannabe.

    Did you report the assault by him upon you?
    No, it really didn't even cross my mind to contact the police. I was not about to go through the whole deal with the cops and be questioned and maybe even charged. I have a few life rules I live by. One of them is to almost never talk to the police unless I need their help to protect my Rights. My 2nd did that job for free and without attitude. The police would have just been drama. But that has really no bearing on why I made this thread.
    You're making up the "rules" as you go along. And they seem to be totally self-serving and ad hoc.

    And somewhat unethical. Failing to report a crime is unethical since you have a responsibility to society.

    But you didn't. Why? Because everything goes back to the gun for you....the gun decides what you do...

    Good luck wit dat "rule."

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