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Thread: Looked down the barrel of a 1911 this morning

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    I found out last night that somebody had stolen my credit card information and was using it to spend a whole bunch of money down in Mexico. When I discovered this, with help from my bank, they told me I needed to file a fraud report with the sheriff's so they could reimburse me the money that was fraudulently spent. So, I went in this morning to the Peninsula Detachment of the Pierce County Sheriff's to file a fraud report.

    I paid particular attention to my appearance so as to appear more credible (although it shouldn't matter, but we all know it does), button down shirt and gray slacks. As per my norm I was OCing my 1911.

    When I reached the counter I told the receptionist what I needed to do and barely a second later a deputy opens the door next to the counter window(rather hastily) and says that I need to go put my gun back in my vehicle. I calmly state that I just need to file a fraud report and I would be on my way. I could see two more officers standing just through the door. One of those two officers says that they will not take my report until I go put my gun back in my truck. I ask if they're refusing to take my report.

    At that time, one of them behind the counter draws his pistol and walks through the door with it pointed at me (very nice 1911 I might add), and the other one walks through the door with pistol drawn, but down at his side (glock maybe, couldn't tell). My heart starts racing a little at this point, but I still feel calm and can speak logically as I try to explain yet again that I'm just there to file a report of an actual crime.

    The one with the gun pointed at me (yes, I have all there names but am witholding them for the time being), orders me to put my hands on the counter and the other one with pistol drawn relieves me of my pistol, wallet and stops for a while at the recorder in my pocket (yes it was recording ) but I don't think he could figure out what it was so he moved on.

    After all that the officer said he would hold onto my gun while he was running the numbers. I tried to tell him that even during a legitimate detainment (this was obviously not a legitimate one) they could only seize the weapon for officer safety and not investigatory purposes. He smiled and walked off. At this point one of them sees the extra mags on my offside (don't know how they missed them the first time) and takes those as well.

    Finally they deign to take my report. The first one that I spoke with comes back out and takes my report right there in the middle of the entrance, seems a little unprofessional in my opinion but I've never had to file a police report before and so, didn't know the procedure. I give them all the information I know about the fraud, they give me a case number to give to my bank and then walk me outside where they return my pistol and mags. One of them handed me back my wallet while inside.

    So, now I have two problems/questions. I have to gather some additional information from my bank and turn it into the sheriff's, which means I have to go back to the department. Should I carry/not carry, OC/CC? I think I already know what I'm going to do but always love to hear others opinions as well. Also, I would usually not think twice about filing a complaint with the department and the officers, but seeing as how they're investigating the fraud for me, I'm wondering if filing a complaint would negatively effect my case and the ability to get my money reimbursed (which I need for rent). Thoughts or opinions?
    DISCLAIMER: This post may contain libertarian ideas and language that are consistent with the Declaration of Independence and the Constitution, including a belief in liberty, rule of law, and natural rights. It may also contain opinions critical of government and the tyrannies being committed by such. If you are an authoritarian, statist, or other freedom hater, side effects of reading this post may include high blood pressure, loose stool, severe genital itching, and diarrhea of the mouth.

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    If I was in your shoes, I would be talking to a lawyer to see if you have cause to file a lawsuit.

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    44Brent wrote:
    If I was in your shoes, I would be talking to a lawyer to see if you have cause to file a lawsuit.
    Maybe, but I've been down that road before with a prior incident involving Pierce County Sheriff and Gig Harbor PD. I went as far as contacting Randy Loun and doing some paperwork, back when Randy still practised. But I didn't have the money to follow through then and I definitely don't have the money to follow through now.
    DISCLAIMER: This post may contain libertarian ideas and language that are consistent with the Declaration of Independence and the Constitution, including a belief in liberty, rule of law, and natural rights. It may also contain opinions critical of government and the tyrannies being committed by such. If you are an authoritarian, statist, or other freedom hater, side effects of reading this post may include high blood pressure, loose stool, severe genital itching, and diarrhea of the mouth.

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    Wow, I'm so impressed you kept your cool during this situation. I know I'd be super nervous if someone pointed their gun at me without cause, police or not. Since they are investigating your case, I would play it cool for the time being and not file a complaint until later. Maybe a phone call to the department head so you can discuss the issue and get it straightened out. This may allow those officers to get some extra training on how to properly handle a situation like this in the future.

    Good luck on your case. Keep us updated.

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    State Researcher Bill Starks's Avatar
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    A letter to the Sheriff and a print out of RCW 9.41.300 section 1a for them to read...?

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    If theres a chance for any knid on settlement you should be able to find a lawyer on contingency. I think the best thing to start with is a letter to the sheriffs dept. demanding an apology for their unproffesional behavior, and lack of knowledge on Washington state law. Definitly get the news involved. IMO I doubt you get could any money from suing.
    If you voted for Obama to prove you are not a racist...
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    Might concider small claims court too, since pointing a loaded .45 at your face probably warranted cause for alarm. Press 9.41.270 against them and persue charges against that officer and max compensation from them for the "fear" you had to deal with, request info on how they are trained etc. How you would expect that behaviour from a thug, not an representative of the state/county (and law).
    it's really cheap to file small claims, and even if you dont win, it still senda a message, and might gather attention of the court regarding how the police can behave. Police need to be more civil towards all of us a citizens.

    P.S. Ask the chief if he thinks this incident will help him stay on for another term... Or ask the mayor/city council if he/they actually ALLOW the police to treat people this way when they are requesting help.
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    NavyLT wrote:
    Who cares if THEY investigate your fraud case or not? As long as the bank gives you your money back. Personally, I would pursue the complaint against the sherrif's office as far as I could.
    What if they tell the bank something bogus about my fraud case when the bank calls them.

    I'm thinking that I'll just wait until the bank/Visa returns the money to my account and then press the complaint.
    DISCLAIMER: This post may contain libertarian ideas and language that are consistent with the Declaration of Independence and the Constitution, including a belief in liberty, rule of law, and natural rights. It may also contain opinions critical of government and the tyrannies being committed by such. If you are an authoritarian, statist, or other freedom hater, side effects of reading this post may include high blood pressure, loose stool, severe genital itching, and diarrhea of the mouth.

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    Magix wrote:
    Wow, I'm so impressed you kept your cool during this situation. I know I'd be super nervous if someone pointed their gun at me without cause, police or not. Since they are investigating your case, I would play it cool for the time being and not file a complaint until later. Maybe a phone call to the department head so you can discuss the issue and get it straightened out. This may allow those officers to get some extra training on how to properly handle a situation like this in the future.

    Good luck on your case. Keep us updated.
    My heart was definitely racing, but I found that I was still calm and could speak logically.
    DISCLAIMER: This post may contain libertarian ideas and language that are consistent with the Declaration of Independence and the Constitution, including a belief in liberty, rule of law, and natural rights. It may also contain opinions critical of government and the tyrannies being committed by such. If you are an authoritarian, statist, or other freedom hater, side effects of reading this post may include high blood pressure, loose stool, severe genital itching, and diarrhea of the mouth.

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    I would open carry there again. Follow M1Gunr's advice and print out the RCW. I would at least also file a complaint if not take it further. I am always very bothered when public servants treat the public. With disdain, also if you stop their intimidation tactic has worked and they will continue to use it on others.
    I am not anti Cop I am just pro Citizen.

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    of their respect for what only appears to be a law, are cunningly coerced into waiving their
    rights, due to ignorance." (Paraphrased)

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    M1Gunr wrote:
    A letter to the Sheriff and a print out of RCW 9.41.300 section 1a for them to read...?
    Thanks, I just might take them that printout when I have to return today.
    amzbrady: If theres a chance for any knid on settlement you should be able to find a lawyer on contingency. I think the best thing to start with is a letter to the sheriffs dept. demanding an apology for their unproffesional behavior, and lack of knowledge on Washington state law. Definitly get the news involved. IMO I doubt you get could any money from suing.
    I don't really want to make any money off of this anyways, I'd rather they just get some additional training when it comes to handling OCer's, or rather all citizens. An apology would be nice too though.

    ETA. because I can't spell.
    DISCLAIMER: This post may contain libertarian ideas and language that are consistent with the Declaration of Independence and the Constitution, including a belief in liberty, rule of law, and natural rights. It may also contain opinions critical of government and the tyrannies being committed by such. If you are an authoritarian, statist, or other freedom hater, side effects of reading this post may include high blood pressure, loose stool, severe genital itching, and diarrhea of the mouth.

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    Regular Member gsx1138's Avatar
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    Sounds like a couple of officers with power trip issues. You need to follow this up.
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    kenshin wrote:
    I tried to tell him that even during a legitimate detainment (this was obviously not a legitimate one) they could only seize the weapon for officer safety and not investigatory purposes. He smiled and walked off.
    Well, this guy clearly thinks he can violate people's rights with impunity. He probably thinks that because his experience has been that it's true: he violates people's rights everyday and they don't do anything but make feeble verbal protests. He just smiles and goes about doing whatever he wants.

    Unless you're expecting a law enforcement agency to discipline there officers because it's the right (lawful) thing to do (BWAH-ha-ha-ha), then the threat of an expensive, embarrassing lawsuit is their only motivation to do anything other than blow you of with a token apology. Good luck and I hope you pursue this. If you let them get away with it....then they get away with it and they'll feel free to do worse.

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    kenshin wrote:
    I don't really want to make any money off of this anyways, I'd rather they just get some additional training when it comes to handling OCer's, or rather all citizens. An apology would be nice too though.

    ETA. because I can't spell.
    Speak to the Sheriff (Paul Pastor). I would explain the situation calmly and politely. In the end I would want a formal apology or else find a lawyer.

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    The only problem with trying to file a complaint against the cops is that it will only result in your immediate arrest and a lifetime of harassment.

    Part 3-5 of a series.
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q1mj44MadBw
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cZD26CvBeEw
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LPO-HRwVniE

    One could only hope that our own local LEO are better than these guys, BUT, since they drew their firearms on you when you were legally OCing says that they aren't.


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    I agree that the deputies were acting a little overzealous, but wouldn't the following portion of RCW 9.41.300 preclude that they acted in good faith at first (based on your description of events) up until the point where you refused to follow their instructions to leave the law enforcement facilitythus making them very nervous.

    Am I missing something somewhere that says you CAN legally carry in the situation you proposed?

    RCW 9.41.300
    Weapons prohibited in certain places - Local laws and ordinances - Exceptions - Penalty.

    (1) It is unlawful for any person to enter the following places when he or she knowingly possesses or knowingly has under his or her control a weapon:

    (a) The restricted access areas of a jail, or of a law enforcement facility, or any place used for the confinement of a person (i) arrested for, charged with, or convicted of an offense, (ii) held for extradition or as a material witness, or (iii) otherwise confined pursuant to an order of a court, except an order under chapter 13.32A or 13.34 RCW. Restricted access areas do not include common areas of egress or ingress open to the general public;



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    On the UP side I OCd into the Kitsap Co Sheriffs office today (in Port Orchard) to file a state pistol transfer. The lady behind the counter didn't even bat an eye. In fact they used to have a no firearms sign printed on the front door glass. I had emailed the Chief and they responded by sending me a letter apologizing for the error and removed the sign.

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    40orbetter wrote:
    I agree that the deputies were acting a little overzealous, but wouldn't the following portion of RCW 9.41.300 preclude that they acted in good faith at first (based on your description of events) up until the point where you refused to follow their instructions to leave the law enforcement facilitythus making them very nervous.

    Am I missing something somewhere that says you CAN legally carry in the situation you proposed?

    RCW 9.41.300
    Weapons prohibited in certain places - Local laws and ordinances - Exceptions - Penalty.

    (1) It is unlawful for any person to enter the following places when he or she knowingly possesses or knowingly has under his or her control a weapon:

    (a) The restricted access areas of a jail, or of a law enforcement facility, or any place used for the confinement of a person (i) arrested for, charged with, or convicted of an offense, (ii) held for extradition or as a material witness, or (iii) otherwise confined pursuant to an order of a court, except an order under chapter 13.32A or 13.34 RCW. Restricted access areas do not include common areas of egress or ingress open to the general public;

    (a) The restricted access areas of a jail, or of a law enforcement facility, or any place used for the confinement of a person (i) arrested for, charged with, or convicted of an offense, (ii) held for extradition or as a material witness, or (iii) otherwise confined pursuant to an order of a court, except an order under chapter 13.32A or 13.34 RCW. Restricted access areas do not include common areas of egress or ingress open to the general public;

    I think this is the part you're missing. Public access areas of law enforcement areas are ok for OC.

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    40orbetter wrote:
    I agree that the deputies were acting a little overzealous, but wouldn't the following portion of RCW 9.41.300 preclude that they acted in good faith at first (based on your description of events) up until the point where you refused to follow their instructions to leave the law enforcement facilitythus making them very nervous.

    Am I missing something somewhere that says you CAN legally carry in the situation you proposed?

    RCW 9.41.300
    Weapons prohibited in certain places - Local laws and ordinances - Exceptions - Penalty.

    (1) It is unlawful for any person to enter the following places when he or she knowingly possesses or knowingly has under his or her control a weapon:

    (a) The restricted access areas of a jail, or of a law enforcement facility, or any place used for the confinement of a person (i) arrested for, charged with, or convicted of an offense, (ii) held for extradition or as a material witness, or (iii) otherwise confined pursuant to an order of a court, except an order under chapter 13.32A or 13.34 RCW. Restricted access areas do not include common areas of egress or ingress open to the general public;

    Except in common areas of egress and ingress. I was in the entrance lobby the entire time, not in any restricted area.


    ETA Sirpuma beat me to it.
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    Good point that. I say send the Pierce Co. Sheriff a letter with explanation and training expectations.

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    Kenshin,

    I would suggest you copy and send this along with your demand for an apology and issuance of a training bulletin. You might want to do this by e mail with a copy saved and send the written document registered signed receipt requested.

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    too late, deleted.

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    NavyLT wrote:
    sirpuma wrote:
    (a) The restricted access areas of a jail, or of a law enforcement facility, or any place used for the confinement of a person (i) arrested for, charged with, or convicted of an offense, (ii) held for extradition or as a material witness, or (iii) otherwise confined pursuant to an order of a court, except an order under chapter 13.32A or 13.34 RCW. Restricted access areas do not include common areas of egress or ingress open to the general public;

    I think this is the part you're missing. Public access areas of law enforcement areas are ok for OC.
    Oh god...not another argument about what the "or" applies to! Lammo? GSXtasy?
    I'mgoing to leave this one completely alone LT. LOL!!!!!
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    kenshin wrote:
    So, now I have two problems/questions. I have to gather some additional information from my bank and turn it into the sheriff's, which means I have to go back to the department. Should I carry/not carry, OC/CC? I think I already know what I'm going to do but always love to hear others opinions as well. Also, I would usually not think twice about filing a complaint with the department and the officers, but seeing as how they're investigating the fraud for me, I'm wondering if filing a complaint would negatively effect my case and the ability to get my money reimbursed (which I need for rent). Thoughts or opinions?
    I'd recommend:

    1. That you file a formal complaint immediately.

    2. That you consult with a private attorney.

    3. That you neither OC/CC when you go back--unless you have cleared it with the top guy.



    How much money is involved with the credit card fraud? Why are you even worried about that?



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    I'd be talking to a private attorney. You were illegally detained, your property was seized, and you had a firearm pulled on you. Imagine if the reverse were true, Imagine if a police officer entered your place of work and you pulled a firearm on them.

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