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Thread: Carry Locations

  1. #1
    Regular Member younggun20's Avatar
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    Had a question on a couple places, From what I understand and please correct me if I'm wrong but shouldn't I be able to carry into the DLD and Department of Workforce Services?

    The reason I believe I should be able to is they are ran by the state receiving state funding so they should fall under state law. Am I correct in assuming this or am i off my rocker?


  2. #2
    State Researcher Kevin Jensen's Avatar
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    younggun20 wrote:
    The reason I believe I should be able to is they are ran by the state receiving state funding so they should fall under state law.
    The law makes no mention of "receiving funding or tax dollars", this is something that sometimes confuses some people.

    You should be good at both of those places. Here is the the text of the law.


    53-5a-102. Uniform firearm laws.
    (1) The individual right to keep and bear arms being a constitutionally protected right under Article I, Section 6 of the Utah Constitution, the Legislature finds the need to provide uniform civil and criminal firearm laws throughout the state.
    (2) Except as specifically provided by state law, a local authority or state entity may not:
    (a) prohibit an individual from owning, possessing, purchasing, selling, transferring, transporting, or keeping a firearm at the individual's place of residence, property, business, or in any vehicle lawfully in the individual's possession or lawfully under the individual's control; or
    (b) require an individual to have a permit or license to purchase, own, possess, transport, or keep a firearm.
    (3) In conjunction with Title 76, Chapter 10, Part 5, Weapons, this section is uniformly applicable throughout this state and in all its political subdivisions and municipalities.
    (4) All authority to regulate firearms is reserved to the state except where the Legislature specifically delegates responsibility to local authorities or state entities.
    (5) Unless specifically authorized by the Legislature by statute, a local authority or state entity may not enact, establish, or enforce any ordinance, regulation, rule, or policy pertaining to firearms that in any way inhibits or restricts the possession or use of firearms on either public or private property.
    (6) As used in this section:
    (a) "firearm" has the same meaning as defined in Subsection 76-10-501(9); and
    (b) "local authority or state entity" includes public school districts, public schools, and state institutions of higher education.
    (7) Nothing in this section restricts or expands private property rights.
    "An armed society is a polite society. Manners are good when one may have to back up his acts with his life." Robert A. Heinlein

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    You are talking about state agencies, not federal, correct?

  4. #4
    Regular Member younggun20's Avatar
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    Thanks Sgt. The reason I thought about the state funding rule, was actually on another post on here somewhere about hospitals, IMC to be exact where someone mentioned the no firearms sign was invalid because it is not considered private property because of them receiving state funding. Again I may be incorrect in the way I read that post.

    But thank you for your response. I did carry into DWFS with no problem,

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    younggun20 wrote:
    someone mentioned the no firearms sign was invalid because it is not considered private property because of them receiving state funding. Again I may be incorrect in the way I read that post.
    I'm sure you read the post correctly. It's a common belief that organizations that accept state or local government funding should be restricted from banning carry. The problem is that that's not what the law says.

  6. #6
    Regular Member younggun20's Avatar
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    I was carrying at the Department of Workforce services in Ogden on 27th and east of Washington on 3/29/10. After being there for about 45 minutes I hear someone doing a "get your attention" cough. I looked around and seen the security guard a Mr. John Glover from CBI Security.

    He called me over to his station and asked me to leave the building as no weapons were allowed. I asked if there was a sign posted I may have missed. He replied with no but is a very strict law that is heavily enforced. I asked if he could get me a copy while I went to the car to disarm and come back to finish what I was doing. He said he did not have a copy and that the manager was to busy to handle my situation. I did go out to the car and disarm as we needed to get this paperwork turned in for my fiances cancer treatments.

    When I returned I asked for a copy of the law or code book for my own personal curiosity, Again he said no. I was beginning to get frustrated by the brick wall treatment, I did keep my cool and continue to ask questions. I asked if it was just because I was open carrying or if the law is so strict the ask everyone that came in if they are conceal carrying. And if so wouldn't a simple sign be easier. I think I pushed him a little far because he said he will now be posting a sign... oops.

    Well when I got home before posting it on here i looked up what I could on my own and could not find anything on any of their sites or search engines. So the next step for me was to send an email. I sent two emails one to the compliant department and one to Kristen Cox the Executive Director. That read as follows
    ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    Today 3/29/10 around 12:30 Pm. I was asked to leave The Department of Workforce Services on 27th street in Ogden. The reason I was asked to leave, I was legally openly carrying a firearm. I was told by John Glover from CBI security that there was a very strict no weapons law in place, but when I asked for a copy of this state code or a copy of the rules he denied me the information, asked me to step outside and disarm.

    I did do so as I was waiting on a fax conformation. After returning from my vehicle I again asked for a copy of the law he was referring to. Again I was denied the information I asked for. I than asked why there was not a sign posted stating no firearm. He said he will be putting one up shortly. I was told me being unarmed was for my own security which I do not understand. My question, I would like a copy of such laws he was referring to, If there is not one can I please receive that in writing for my own curiosity.

    Cameron.
    phone #
    Email
    ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    I received a call today from a gentleman I failed to get his name. He said My actions and assumptions were correct. They have no law or rule against carrying a firearm. He told me further investigations will need to be done but they will be getting in contact with security and notifying them that weapons are allowed to be legally carried and any signs that have been posted will be removed immediately. Also once everything was investigated and finished I would receive a second call with all the decisions made followed by an email of any rules in place.

    I feel I did good for my first request to be unarmed and escalating the situation as needed. Any input would be greatly appreciated.


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    Regular Member Rottie's Avatar
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    You did well. I especially like that you contacted the executive director with your complaint. Keep it up!

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    Regular Member Utah_Patriot's Avatar
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    Just a quick question about your thoughts on Carrying '

    On Sunday at general confrence I noticed the had metal detectors at the entrance. Their were no signs around that said no firearms and the tickets did not state no firearms allowed.

    As I approched the metal detectors I told them I had a firearm after the detectors beeped. they escorted me off property and had to wait outside till my friends came out.

    Is this considered a secure area and is this considered a house of worship. I understand it is private property and they can control who goes in.



    Just your thoughts BTW if it was a secure area it would need storage areas.
    Zach
    8014487574
    "A fear of weapons is a sign of retarded sexual and emotional maturity"

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    gunsfreak4791 wrote:
    Is this considered a secure area and is this considered a house of worship. I understand it is private property and they can control who goes in.
    The LDS conference center is considered a house of worship by the LDS Church. It was dedicated as such, and certainly falls within the definition of such under the relevant Utah code. 76-10-306(13)

    "House of worship" means a church, temple, synagogue, mosque, or other building set apart primarily for the purpose of worship in which religious services are held and the main body of which is kept for that use and not put to any other use inconsistent with its primary purpose.
    Also note that notice has been given as required under 76-10-530 using the "public notice and inclusion on the BCI website" option. See http://publicsafety.utah.gov/bci/CFchurch.html

    The following churches have notified BCI of their intent to prohibit firearms on their premises.
    The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints
    All "houses of worship" in Utah
    This method of notification does NOT require that any signs be posted. Of course, posted signs OR personal communication from a person authorized to limit access to the building would also suffice.

    Strictly speaking, you violated Utah law the moment you entered the building with your firearm. Being escorted out of the building, but with no charges pressed, is generous of the property owner in this case.

    It is the responsibility of law abiding gun owners to be aware of which churches have banned firearms.

    I'm glad this was nothing more than an inconvenience. Sorry you missed the session of conference you had planned to attend.

    Charles


    All experience hath shewn, that mankind are more disposed to suffer, while evils are sufferable, than to right themselves by abolishing the forms to which they are accustomed. Thank heaven we do not permit a few to impose anarchy.

    "With Anarchy as an aim and as a means, Communism becomes possible."
    --Marxist.org

    "Communism and Anarchy [are], a necessary complement to one another. "
    --PETER KROPOTKIN, "Anarchism: its philosophy and ideal." 1898.

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    Regular Member younggun20's Avatar
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    gunsfreak4791 wrote:
    Just a quick question about your thoughts on Carrying '

    On Sunday at general confrence I noticed the had metal detectors at the entrance. Their were no signs around that said no firearms and the tickets did not state no firearms allowed.

    As I approched the metal detectors I told them I had a firearm after the detectors beeped. they escorted me off property and had to wait outside till my friends came out.

    Is this considered a secure area and is this considered a house of worship. I understand it is private property and they can control who goes in.



    Just your thoughts BTW if it was a secure area it would need storage areas.
    I personally would assume house of worship

    Utah code 76-10-501
    (13) "House of worship" means a church, temple, synagogue, mosque, or other building set apart primarily for the purpose of worship in which religious services are held and the main body of which is kept for that use and not put to any other use inconsistent with its primary purpose.

    76-10-530. Trespass with a firearm in a house of worship or private residence -- Notice -- Penalty.

    (1) A person, including a person licensed to carry a concealed firearm pursuant to Title 53, Chapter 5, Part 7, Concealed Weapon Act, after notice has been given as provided in Subsection (2) that firearms are prohibited, may not knowingly and intentionally:
    (a) transport a firearm into:
    (i) a house of worship; or
    (ii) a private residence; or
    (b) while in possession of a firearm, enter or remain in:
    (i) a house of worship; or
    (ii) a private residence.
    (2) Notice that firearms are prohibited may be given by:
    (a) personal communication to the actor by:
    (i) the church or organization operating the house of worship;
    (ii) the owner, lessee, or person with lawful right of possession of the private residence; or
    (iii) a person with authority to act for the person or entity in Subsections (2)(a)(i) and (ii);
    (b) posting of signs reasonably likely to come to the attention of persons entering the house of worship or private residence;
    (c) announcement, by a person with authority to act for the church or organization operating the house of worship, in a regular congregational meeting in the house of worship;
    (d) publication in a bulletin, newsletter, worship program, or similar document generally circulated or available to the members of the congregation


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    Regular Member Rottie's Avatar
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    gunsfreak4791, utbagpiper explained it perfectly above. I did wonder though about you being escorted off the property. I figured they would just have you leave the building but it sounds like they had you leave the property. Did they ask you not to come back or just that you remain off the property with your gun? I wonder if the visitors centers are considered houses of worship? Anybody know the answer to that?

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    Rottie wrote:
    I wonder if the visitors centers are considered houses of worship? Anybody know the answer to that?
    I don't know that visitor centers would qualify as a house of worship under Utah law as I don't think that hosting religious services is the primary purpose of those buildings.

    Still, as both a basic courtesy to religious beliefs (or at least announced policy), as a practical matter to avoid needlessly provoking a very potent political force in Utah, and as a matter of personal religious duty, I avoid taking a gun into LDS church property where I know the LDS Church prefers not to have guns. If it is technically legal to have a gun in some location owned by the LDS church and if I do carry for some reason, I will generally carry discretely rather than openly.

    Charles
    All experience hath shewn, that mankind are more disposed to suffer, while evils are sufferable, than to right themselves by abolishing the forms to which they are accustomed. Thank heaven we do not permit a few to impose anarchy.

    "With Anarchy as an aim and as a means, Communism becomes possible."
    --Marxist.org

    "Communism and Anarchy [are], a necessary complement to one another. "
    --PETER KROPOTKIN, "Anarchism: its philosophy and ideal." 1898.

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    utbagpiper wrote:
    Still, as both a basic courtesy to religious beliefs (or at least announced policy), as a practical matter to avoid needlessly provoking a very potent political force in Utah, and as a matter of personal religious duty, I avoid taking a gun into LDS church property where I know the LDS Church prefers not to have guns.
    +1

    Especially the bit about not provoking the church. I don't know what it would take to get the church interested in tightening carry laws, but I do know that if the church decided it needed to be done it would be very, very hard to stop. The LDS church is generally careful to avoid involving itself in matters of public policy, but in the rare case it does, it has enormous influence in Utah.

    utbagpiper wrote:
    If it is technically legal to have a gun in some location owned by the LDS church and if I do carry for some reason, I will generally carry discretely rather than openly.
    Discretely? Is that as opposed to continuously?

    I don't usually correct spelling errors/typos, but that one struck me as very funny.

  14. #14
    Regular Member Rottie's Avatar
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    Great insights! I too out of a matter of religious duty avoid carry in places where my church has expressed a desire to not have guns. I was more curious than anything. I agree that more damage than good would come from repeated challenges of the issue.

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    swillden wrote:
    Discretely? Is that as opposed to continuously?

    I don't usually correct spelling errors/typos, but that one struck me as very funny.
    No, that was deliberate.

    I only carry whole integer numbers of guns. I find carrying 3 1/2 guns to be less useful than carrying either 3 or 4 guns.

    Ok. I admit it. Spelling error. Thanks for the catch.
    All experience hath shewn, that mankind are more disposed to suffer, while evils are sufferable, than to right themselves by abolishing the forms to which they are accustomed. Thank heaven we do not permit a few to impose anarchy.

    "With Anarchy as an aim and as a means, Communism becomes possible."
    --Marxist.org

    "Communism and Anarchy [are], a necessary complement to one another. "
    --PETER KROPOTKIN, "Anarchism: its philosophy and ideal." 1898.

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    I suppose that, if you were arrested, you could mount a succesful defense in a court of law that the conference center, was not a house of worship, held specifically for that purpose. Therefore I doubt they could sucessfully procecute you for it. Just because the church would like to include it in that list, does not make it so.

    Still, out of respect for the enormous power of the LDS church here in Utah, I would not push it.

  17. #17
    Regular Member younggun20's Avatar
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    younggun20 wrote:
    I was carrying at the Department of Workforce services in Ogden on 27th and east of Washington on 3/29/10. After being there for about 45 minutes I hear someone doing a "get your attention" cough. I looked around and seen the security guard a Mr. John Glover from CBI Security.

    He called me over to his station and asked me to leave the building as no weapons were allowed. I asked if there was a sign posted I may have missed. He replied with no but is a very strict law that is heavily enforced. I asked if he could get me a copy while I went to the car to disarm and come back to finish what I was doing. He said he did not have a copy and that the manager was to busy to handle my situation. I did go out to the car and disarm as we needed to get this paperwork turned in for my fiances cancer treatments.

    When I returned I asked for a copy of the law or code book for my own personal curiosity, Again he said no. I was beginning to get frustrated by the brick wall treatment, I did keep my cool and continue to ask questions. I asked if it was just because I was open carrying or if the law is so strict the ask everyone that came in if they are conceal carrying. And if so wouldn't a simple sign be easier. I think I pushed him a little far because he said he will now be posting a sign... oops.

    Well when I got home before posting it on here i looked up what I could on my own and could not find anything on any of their sites or search engines. So the next step for me was to send an email. I sent two emails one to the compliant department and one to Kristen Cox the Executive Director. That read as follows
    ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    Today 3/29/10 around 12:30 Pm. I was asked to leave The Department of Workforce Services on 27th street in Ogden. The reason I was asked to leave, I was legally openly carrying a firearm. I was told by John Glover from CBI security that there was a very strict no weapons law in place, but when I asked for a copy of this state code or a copy of the rules he denied me the information, asked me to step outside and disarm.

    I did do so as I was waiting on a fax conformation. After returning from my vehicle I again asked for a copy of the law he was referring to. Again I was denied the information I asked for. I than asked why there was not a sign posted stating no firearm. He said he will be putting one up shortly. I was told me being unarmed was for my own security which I do not understand. My question, I would like a copy of such laws he was referring to, If there is not one can I please receive that in writing for my own curiosity.

    Cameron.
    phone #
    Email
    ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    I received a call today from a gentleman I failed to get his name. He said My actions and assumptions were correct. They have no law or rule against carrying a firearm. He told me further investigations will need to be done but they will be getting in contact with security and notifying them that weapons are allowed to be legally carried and any signs that have been posted will be removed immediately. Also once everything was investigated and finished I would receive a second call with all the decisions made followed by an email of any rules in place.

    I feel I did good for my first request to be unarmed and escalating the situation as needed. Any input would be greatly appreciated.
    Got an email back today stating the following..


    Dear Mr. Snyder: Thank you for bringing this issue to our attention. Utah Code 53-5a-102 (5) states: "Unless specifically authorized by the Legislature by statute, a local authority or state entity may not enact, establish, or enforce any ordinance, regulation, rule, or policy pertaining to firearms that in any way inhibits or restricts the possession or use of firearms on either public or private property."

    The Department of Workforce Services (DWS)has taken the appropriate actions in contactingCBI Security regarding Tile 53 Chapter 5a and section 102 sub section 5 of theUtah State Code.CBI is a private companycontracted byDWS to provided security forits staff andpatrons.The subsection provided in this email does not apply to all placesof business; however it does apply to public property.

    This email will conclude all correspondence fromDWS regarding this issue.Thank you forwriting of your experienceas to preventfuture situations of this kind.

    Kindest Regards, Darren Rogers Constituent Affairs

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    younggun20 wrote:
    younggun20 wrote:
    I was carrying at the Department of Workforce services in Ogden on 27th and east of Washington on 3/29/10. After being there for about 45 minutes I hear someone doing a "get your attention" cough. I looked around and seen the security guard a Mr. John Glover from CBI Security.

    He called me over to his station and asked me to leave the building as no weapons were allowed. I asked if there was a sign posted I may have missed. He replied with no but is a very strict law that is heavily enforced. I asked if he could get me a copy while I went to the car to disarm and come back to finish what I was doing. He said he did not have a copy and that the manager was to busy to handle my situation. I did go out to the car and disarm as we needed to get this paperwork turned in for my fiances cancer treatments.

    When I returned I asked for a copy of the law or code book for my own personal curiosity, Again he said no. I was beginning to get frustrated by the brick wall treatment, I did keep my cool and continue to ask questions. I asked if it was just because I was open carrying or if the law is so strict the ask everyone that came in if they are conceal carrying. And if so wouldn't a simple sign be easier. I think I pushed him a little far because he said he will now be posting a sign... oops.

    Well when I got home before posting it on here i looked up what I could on my own and could not find anything on any of their sites or search engines. So the next step for me was to send an email. I sent two emails one to the compliant department and one to Kristen Cox the Executive Director. That read as follows
    ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    Today 3/29/10 around 12:30 Pm. I was asked to leave The Department of Workforce Services on 27th street in Ogden. The reason I was asked to leave, I was legally openly carrying a firearm. I was told by John Glover from CBI security that there was a very strict no weapons law in place, but when I asked for a copy of this state code or a copy of the rules he denied me the information, asked me to step outside and disarm.

    I did do so as I was waiting on a fax conformation. After returning from my vehicle I again asked for a copy of the law he was referring to. Again I was denied the information I asked for. I than asked why there was not a sign posted stating no firearm. He said he will be putting one up shortly. I was told me being unarmed was for my own security which I do not understand. My question, I would like a copy of such laws he was referring to, If there is not one can I please receive that in writing for my own curiosity.

    Cameron.
    phone #
    Email
    ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    I received a call today from a gentleman I failed to get his name. He said My actions and assumptions were correct. They have no law or rule against carrying a firearm. He told me further investigations will need to be done but they will be getting in contact with security and notifying them that weapons are allowed to be legally carried and any signs that have been posted will be removed immediately. Also once everything was investigated and finished I would receive a second call with all the decisions made followed by an email of any rules in place.

    I feel I did good for my first request to be unarmed and escalating the situation as needed. Any input would be greatly appreciated.
    Got an email back today stating the following..


    Dear Mr. Snyder: Thank you for bringing this issue to our attention. Utah Code 53-5a-102 (5) states: "Unless specifically authorized by the Legislature by statute, a local authority or state entity may not enact, establish, or enforce any ordinance, regulation, rule, or policy pertaining to firearms that in any way inhibits or restricts the possession or use of firearms on either public or private property."

    The Department of Workforce Services (DWS)has taken the appropriate actions in contactingCBI Security regarding Tile 53 Chapter 5a and section 102 sub section 5 of theUtah State Code.CBI is a private companycontracted byDWS to provided security forits staff andpatrons.The subsection provided in this email does not apply to all placesof business; however it does apply to public property.

    This email will conclude all correspondence fromDWS regarding this issue.Thank you forwriting of your experienceas to preventfuture situations of this kind.

    Kindest Regards, Darren Rogers Constituent Affairs
    Good job thats one less place that we will have to worry about getting harrassed at... Probably even more than just one place, if they pass this info through to all CBI security guards

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    I was just in Walmart of Clinton and was cornered by two security guards and the so-called store manager. I was told it was there policy that OC'ing in Wally world is strictly prohibited. You can concealed with a permit, but not openly. They are a public business open to the public, they say the property is private and it scares the customers. Maybe the customers should read up on their state laws in-stead of being sheep! I was given a print out by their so-called manager who looked as if she was ready to piss herself. (Sorry) Deer in the headlight look the whole time I was talking to the security guard. (Rod Gentle, Assistant Protection) The letter that I was given states:

    Team,

    This is the ruling on the gun activist that is trying to bring his side arm in our stores.
    Please read the email below mine.
    * We do not have to post a sign at the front of the store
    * We have the right to refuse to allow guns in our stores.
    * It is company policy that no fire arms are allowed in the store by customers or associates.
    Thank You, Don Schulthies
    Market Manager
    Market 281 SLC, UT.
    Region 44


    Sorry but this sounds like a load of horse crap to me. I was Pissed to say the least, I would like to know what Wal-marts Corporate Policy is not local.
    I read on here some where about someone else having the same problem in west valley and the west valley store found out that they were wrong to ask the customer to leave because they where Oc-ing. I have an email from
    Mark Johnson
    Associate General Counsel
    Wal-Mart Stores Division Legal
    Phone 479-204-9131
    Fax 479-204-9575
    mark.johnson@walmartlegal.com

    If we want to keep our gun-rights we had better let those who are trying to keep it from us or even take it away let them know how we feel. I for one will not go back to wally-world in Clinton until they change this policy. I am a gov employee and will make sure this email is sent everyone I can. If you agree please pass this on. We as good law abiding citizens are not allowed to carry a side arm openly something is very wrong. What really irritates me is wally-world says they will not put up a sign saying this. They would rather catch you and corner you in the store with three people and make policy there. Sorry this is BS to the highest degree!!!!!!!!!!
    53-5a-102.
    (7) Nothing in this section restricts or expands private property rights. (Someone please explain this part to me). MY home number is 801-820-5338 ask for Larry.



  20. #20
    Regular Member younggun20's Avatar
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    hmm that's odd. Last I heard they were to follow state law. I was in the WM on Riverdale in Ogden today and the cashier mentioned my firearm but only to say he didnt need to ID me for the beer since OC is legal at 21. :quirky When I told him you could OC at 18 in UT.. he asked for my ID haha.

    searched Walmart and found this

    http://opencarry.mywowbb.com/view_to...hlight=Walmart

    However while reading just keep in mind that is not the UT forum

    I gave wal-mart customer service a call today and I told them about my experience in the Morehead, Ky wal-mart a few weeks ago. Here is the link to the post I made on my experience there. http://opencarry.mywowbb.com/forum25/41860.html The women I spoke too said that they leave it up to the store managers on whether to allow open carry in there stores. When did this policy take effect? I asked if they had a company policy on the carrying of firearms in there stores and she said no, but they leave the decision to allow carry up to the manager of the store. I have read on this forum several times that wal-mart follows state law and does not let managers make up there own policy's. I would really like a definitive answer on this subject! Thanks

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