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At Supreme Court, Chicago's lawyer seems concerned about open carry rights

blackrifleman

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If we win this, it will truly mean that the US Constitution is our concealed-carry permit. I don't care what people think; the citizens of the United States have the right to keep (legally own and possess) and bear (carry upon the person) arms.
 

Dutch Uncle

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Mike wrote:
http://www.supremecourtus.gov/oral_arguments/argument_transcripts/08-1521.pdf

SNIP


-- there have been local jurisdictions before and there are now ones where they feel allowing some firearms, but banning handguns, is the best way to achieve public safety and to increase the zone of ordered liberty for their people.
Amidst all the incoherence sits this gem: "to increase the zone of ordered liberty.."

From the DutchUncle Dictionary of Firearms Debate (copyright 2010)

Ordered liberty: A situation in which a right still exists, but can scarcely be practiced because the liberty to do so has been so thoroughly "ordered". It implies the means by which anti-gun bigots can slowly choke out the essence of a right. (See also Richard J. Daley, Richard M. Daley )
 
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blackrifleman wrote:
If we win this, it will truly mean that the US Constitution is our concealed-carry permit. I don't care what people think; the citizens of the United States have the right to keep (legally own and possess) and bear (carry upon the person) arms.
So how did you get the infringement of concealed-carry in your mix? Which part of "shall not be infringed" do YOU not understand?
 

wrightme

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blackrifleman wrote:
If we win this, it will truly mean that the US Constitution is our <snip> carry permit. I don't care what people think; the citizens of the United States have the right to keep (legally own and possess) and bear (carry upon the person) arms.
You added an unnecessary word.
 

ixtow

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wrightme wrote:
blackrifleman wrote:
If we win this, it will truly mean that the US Constitution is our <snip> carry permit. I don't care what people think; the citizens of the United States have the right to keep (legally own and possess) and bear (carry upon the person) arms.
You added an infringement.
Mmmm doublefixed it.

Do I get a cookie?
 

KansasMustang

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Geez, just reading the transcripts and didn't the Obamessiah teell everyone that we should be more polite? Alan Gura could hardly get out 5 words before the "Justices" were interrupting him. Glad I wasn't the one arguing the case. I'd have politely said "Are you gonna let me:cuss: speak?:cuss::cuss::cuss:
 

wrightme

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ixtow wrote:
wrightme wrote:
blackrifleman wrote:
If we win this, it will truly mean that the US Constitution is our <snip> carry permit. I don't care what people think; the citizens of the United States have the right to keep (legally own and possess) and bear (carry upon the person) arms.
You added an infringement.
Mmmm doublefixed it.

Do I get a cookie?
No cookie. The US Constitution is not an infringement.
 

eye95

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mark edward marchiafava wrote:
is it just me, or does that statement seem a tad incoherent and disconnected?
It's you. ;) The statement is not a tad disconnected. It is totally disconnected. If that was the lawyer who argued for gun control laws, all I have to say is...

WOO HOO!!!
 

ixtow

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wrightme wrote:
ixtow wrote:
wrightme wrote:
blackrifleman wrote:
If we win this, it will truly mean that the US Constitution is our <snip> carry permit. I don't care what people think; the citizens of the United States have the right to keep (legally own and possess) and bear (carry upon the person) arms.
You added an infringement.
Mmmm doublefixed it.

Do I get a cookie?
No cookie. The US Constitution is not an infringement.
Correct, but you added one to it.
 

wrightme

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ixtow wrote:
wrightme wrote:
ixtow wrote:
wrightme wrote:
blackrifleman wrote:
If we win this, it will truly mean that the US Constitution is our <snip> carry permit. I don't care what people think; the citizens of the United States have the right to keep (legally own and possess) and bear (carry upon the person) arms.
You added an infringement.
Mmmm doublefixed it.

Do I get a cookie?
No cookie. The US Constitution is not an infringement.
Correct, but you added one to it.
No. What infringement do you allege?
 

ixtow

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wrightme wrote:
ixtow wrote:
wrightme wrote:
ixtow wrote:
wrightme wrote:
blackrifleman wrote:
If we win this, it will truly mean that the US Constitution is our <snip> carry permit. I don't care what people think; the citizens of the United States have the right to keep (legally own and possess) and bear (carry upon the person) arms.
You added an infringement.
Mmmm doublefixed it.

Do I get a cookie?
No cookie. The US Constitution is not an infringement.
Correct, but you added one to it.
No. What infringement do you allege?
"Concealed" and "Permit" are not in The Constitution. They are both infringements against it.

And, IMNSHO, Treason.
 

Citizen

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wrightme wrote:
SNIPThe US Constitution is not an infringement.
Don't count on it. Read up on the arguments against ratification by the Anti-federalists. They were convinced the Constitution planted the seeds for a huge, overbearing national government. Many of their predictions have come true.

The history of the Constitutional Convention has plenty of dirty tricks and double-dealing. The convention was merely to strengthen the Articles of Confederation. Yet, Hamilton was already planning for something else by Feb or Mar 1787, evidence in a letter he wrote to Geo. Washington.

And don't forget that the convention abandoned its mandate to strengthen the Articles of Confederation (its only authority). Several members of the convention quit in protest expressly declaring that they were not authorized by their legislatures to write a new constitution.

And don't forget the whole thing was done in secret.

And that even Ben Franklin was convincedthe Constitutionwouldn't work. He mentions this inthe closing address he was to give for the convention, but he was too ill orfrailto speech, so another member read it for him.

James Madison added the Bill of Rights onlyto quiet the racket from the Anti-federalists like Patrick Henry. This has been known to scholars for ages. Madison himself is on recordopposinga bill of rights. A "nauseous business" I think were his words.
 

wrightme

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ixtow wrote:
wrightme wrote:
ixtow wrote:
wrightme wrote:
ixtow wrote:
wrightme wrote:
blackrifleman wrote:
If we win this, it will truly mean that the US Constitution is our <snip> carry permit. I don't care what people think; the citizens of the United States have the right to keep (legally own and possess) and bear (carry upon the person) arms.
You added an infringement.
Mmmm doublefixed it.

Do I get a cookie?
No cookie. The US Constitution is not an infringement.
Correct, but you added one to it.
No. What infringement do you allege?
"Concealed" and "Permit" are not in The Constitution. They are both infringements against it.

And, IMNSHO, Treason.
LOL, the statement was to use the US Constitution as the carry permit, not to infringe upon the Right with a permission request. But that is OK. You can still learn about it.
 

ixtow

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Citizen wrote:
And that even Ben Franklin was convincedthe Constitutionwouldn't work.
No piece of paper can, who's benefactors have no interest in preserving or understanding it. ...and what it is they will cease to be benefactors of.
 

ixtow

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wrightme wrote:
LOL, the statement was to use the US Constitution as the carry permit, not to infringe upon the Right with a permission request. But that is OK. You can still learn about it.
Maybe we're splitting hairs at this point but The Constitution doesn't give me 'permit'/sion to carry. I prevents anyone from seizing that pre-existing Right which I already have.

It does not give me permission. And thusly, is not a 'permit.'

Follow?
 

wrightme

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ixtow wrote:
wrightme wrote:
LOL, the statement was to use the US Constitution as the carry permit, not to infringe upon the Right with a permission request. But that is OK. You can still learn about it.
Maybe we're splitting hairs at this point but The Constitution doesn't give me 'permit'/sion to carry. I prevents anyone from seizing that pre-existing Right which I already have.

It does not give me permission. And thusly, is not a 'permit.'

Follow?
No one claimed that it "gave" that. But, the statement was well-used, but was only presented as replacing a cc permit. It is not a "permit," but handily replaces one by proxy.
 

ixtow

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wrightme wrote:
ixtow wrote:
wrightme wrote:
LOL, the statement was to use the US Constitution as the carry permit, not to infringe upon the Right with a permission request. But that is OK. You can still learn about it.
Maybe we're splitting hairs at this point but The Constitution doesn't give me 'permit'/sion to carry. I prevents anyone from seizing that pre-existing Right which I already have.

It does not give me permission. And thusly, is not a 'permit.'

Follow?
No one claimed that it "gave" that. But, the statement was well-used, but was only presented as replacing a cc permit. It is not a "permit," but handily replaces one by proxy.
It sure looks that way to me, but I'm not further dispose of this thread's usefulness in an argument over semantics.
 

Citizen

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ixtow wrote:
Citizen wrote:
And that even Ben Franklin was convincedthe Constitutionwouldn't work.
SNIP No piece of paper can...
Curiously enough, this was one of the Federalist counter-arguments to the demands for a Bill of Rights. In essence, "you don't need a Bill of Rights because no parchment will protect."

Uh, huh. Well, the Bill of Rights may not have fully protected, but itslowed 'em down. Given what has been rammed down our throats in the last 100 years by the fedgov, imagine what the fedgov would have done if therewas noBill of Rights!
 

ixtow

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Citizen wrote:
ixtow wrote:
Citizen wrote:
And that even Ben Franklin was convincedthe Constitutionwouldn't work.
SNIP No piece of paper can...
Curiously enough, this was one of the Federalist counter-arguments to the demands for a Bill of Rights. In essence, "you don't need a Bill of Rights because no parchment will protect."

Uh, huh. Well, the Bill of Rights may not have fully protected, but itslowed 'em down. Given what has been rammed down our throats in the last 100 years by the fedgov, imagine what the fedgov would have done if therewas noBill of Rights!
One could also argue that the slowdown of encroachment leads to passification by generation gap. Had the fedgov tried more, faster, it would not have been tolerated to this point....

Both seam plausible, but which has shown to be more effective historically? The only scientific data available on this suggests that freedoms tend to be lost permanently due to gradual encroachment. Abrupt changes are less tolerable.
 

Citizen

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ixtow wrote:
Citizen wrote:
ixtow wrote:
Citizen wrote:
And that even Ben Franklin was convincedthe Constitutionwouldn't work.
SNIP No piece of paper can...
Curiously enough, this was one of the Federalist counter-arguments to the demands for a Bill of Rights. In essence, "you don't need a Bill of Rights because no parchment will protect."

Uh, huh. Well, the Bill of Rights may not have fully protected, but itslowed 'em down. Given what has been rammed down our throats in the last 100 years by the fedgov, imagine what the fedgov would have done if therewas noBill of Rights!
One could also argue that the slowdown of encroachment leads to passification by generation gap. Had the fedgov tried more, faster, it would not have been tolerated to this point....

Both seam plausible, but which has shown to be more effective historically? The only scientific data available on this suggests that freedoms tend to be lost permanently due to gradual encroachment. Abrupt changes are less tolerable.


For an un-informed populace perhaps. I can say from personal experience that looking back at the all the little encroachments, and thus seeing the sum total encroachment,tolerable is no longer an accurate description for me. Thus my activism.

A big part of it, too, I think, is having meaningful reference points against which to weigh government policy. For example, if your schooling indoctrinated you to believe that government was the source of solutions, was good for you, that people need controlling, etc., then you would lack the information needed to evaluate against fedgov policy. Another good example might be Lysander Spooners explanation that it iscriminal for someone to extort money from you for your protection, and that itin no way legitimizes it if Mssrs A, B, and C depute D to do the extorting. Meaningcitizens A, B, and C deputecongressman D by election to do the extorting. If you don't know that to be the game, and that it is criminal whether legal or not, you won't recognize the deep immorality of many of government's activities. (Thus, the Dept. of Education is really just an extension of the tax bureau, softening up the targets.)

But, if a dimwit like me can figure it out between reading books, forum discussion, and following pro-liberty websites, the rest of the populace can, too. The web is wonderful for bypassing the "established" information channels.
 
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