At Supreme Court, Chicago's lawyer seems concerned about open carry rights

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Citizen wrote:

But, if a dimwit like me can figure it out between reading books, forum discussion, and following pro-liberty websites, the rest of the populace can, too.

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Sure, they CAN. But they don't.

You have leaps and bounds more faith in humanity than I. I see nothing but a contest to see how much A, B, and C can extort from D. Instead of solve it, fix it, or just stop being a bunch of asses, they feel that taking it to an extreme is the only way. Every person I've ever known postulates: "The only reason it's not working, is because we have not yet gone far enough off the deep end."

Going against the will of the stampeding masses bent on this end, only gets you trampled for, as they say, being too ignorant to understand them and their goals.... One who does not join them in their steadilly warming handbasket, clearly, are just too dumb and need more college...... Ask anyone with a degree. Taxing and spending our way out of debt and into prosperity, it's the only way!

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ixtow wrote:

Citizen wrote:

But, if a dimwit like me can figure it out between reading books, forum discussion, and following pro-liberty websites, the rest of the populace can, too.

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SNIP Sure, they CAN. But they don't.

...I see nothing but a contest to see how much A, B, and C can extort from D.

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I understand.

Realize, though, that its pretty hard to see someone else's internet connection to see what he is reading or writing. Unless you are NSA, course. And difficult to see what book he is reading in his bedroom before falling asleep at night. Meaning, one has to look elsewhere for the clues.

One very encouraging clue is Ron Paul's tremendous success with young people. Also, for example, Ron winning the CPAC straw poll for presidential nominee. And, for the first time in history, the Federal Reserve is under discussion politically. Mainly due to his tireless efforts in Congress across 20 years, combined with the economic depression-called-recession.

The pendulum is moving. The trick is to push it, so it arrives ahead of the attempts by the vested interests to maintain the status quo.

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Citizen wrote:

ixtow wrote:

Citizen wrote:

But, if a dimwit like me can figure it out between reading books, forum discussion, and following pro-liberty websites, the rest of the populace can, too.

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SNIP Sure, they CAN. But they don't.

...I see nothing but a contest to see how much A, B, and C can extort from D.

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I understand.

Realize, though, that its pretty hard to see someone else's internet connection to see what he is reading or writing. Unless you are NSA, course. And difficult to see what book he is reading in his bedroom before falling asleep at night. Meaning, one has to look elsewhere for the clues.

One very encouraging clue is Ron Paul's tremendous success with young people. Also, for example, Ron winning the CPAC straw poll for presidential nominee. And, for the first time in history, the Federal Reserve is under discussion politically. Mainly due to his tireless efforts in Congress across 20 years, combined with the economic depression-called-recession.

The pendulum is moving. The trick is to push it, so it arrives ahead of the attempts by the vested interests to maintain the status quo.

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My Dad used to talk about the Pendulum. But he also thought AKs and ARs should be illegal......

The problem is Church. People get very optimistic when slapping each other on the back and telling each other what they already know. Where I live.... The Enemy is still very much alive and advancing more rapidly than ever. No one within 50 miles of this place would EVER vote for Ron, and likely, kill you for suggesting it if they get the chance. I've seen nothing but arrogance and hate from humanity my entire life, it just keeps getting worse and worse.

To put my faith and trust in those? I'd be a complete fool.

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ixtow wrote:

SNIP Where I live.... The Enemy is still very much alive and advancing more rapidly than ever. No one within 50 miles of this place would EVER vote for Ron, and likely, kill you for suggesting it if they get the chance.

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Oh, my. Well, I can certainly see you being excused from trying to help push the pendulum. No sense risking life and limb for no conversions to liberty.

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ixtow wrote:

I've seen nothing but arrogance and hate from humanity my entire life, it just keeps getting worse and worse.

To put my faith and trust in those? I'd be a complete fool.

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That explains a lot about you Ixtow. You see what you want to see in people, and in your perception of arrogance and hate you too have become arrogant and hateful, even with people who agree with your position. You make no attempt to understand what people are trying to say and assume malicious intent behind everyone's actions. Viewing the world and humanity with your perception, you are correct, you would be a fool for putting your faith and trust in those, and I pity you that you have had such a bad experience in life that you have such a paranoid perception. You're not a dumb guy at all Ixtow, you're quite intelligent asmost peoplehere would agree, but you would be more effective if you dealt with everyone on a clean slate instead of immediately going on the offensive.

As we say in the military, allow the situation to develop and see where it goes, it could be something or it could be nothing.

On the topic though, you and Citizen are correct that it's the slow encroachment on rights which lead to the loss of them, and Citizen is correct in that we're seeing a return to our original values thanks to the wealth of information now at a few mouse clicks. Ideas and philosophies are flowing freely and thereby creating a growing culture of self education and a forum of national discourse where every person has a voice.

However, both of you have pointed out the effects of the disease (the loss of rights by encroachment), but have failed to point out the cause, fear. Fear is the tool to best control the masses, the fear of suffering and loss, and those who would oppress know it. Read the comments of those articles by the Brady Bunch on the Huffington Post. The majority of the comments are pros and antis trading fear back and forth, "I don't want to be caught in a cross fire!" "I don't want my family raped by some crazed attacker!" It will continue to be that way until we as a culture take a step back from the issues and use reason to dictate policy instead of emotion.

Also Ixtow, look into the carrot & stick method, then try to apply it to conversation/debate, you'll find people are more prone to listen to you when you don't continually verbally bash them over the head with your proverbial stick.

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ABNinfantryman wrote:

ixtow wrote:

I've seen nothing but arrogance and hate from humanity my entire life, it just keeps getting worse and worse.

To put my faith and trust in those? I'd be a complete fool.

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That explains a lot about you Ixtow. You see what you want to see in people, and in your perception of arrogance and hate you too have become arrogant and hateful, even with people who agree with your position. You make no attempt to understand what people are trying to say and assume malicious intent behind everyone's actions. Viewing the world and humanity with your perception, you are correct, you would be a fool for putting your faith and trust in those, and I pity you that you have had such a bad experience in life that you have such a paranoid perception. You're not a dumb guy at all Ixtow, you're quite intelligent asmost peoplehere would agree, but you would be more effective if you dealt with everyone on a clean slate instead of immediately going on the offensive.

As we say in the military, allow the situation to develop and see where it goes, it could be something or it could be nothing.

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I appreciate your criticism. You're right, I have learned to immediately go for the jugular. It's why I'm still alive.

It's easy to blame a place, hell, anything but myself. The 'product of my environment' excuse is an easy one to lean on. But I can count at least a dozen circumstances in which I would be dead if not for what I've learned to be. Sometimes, it's true.

I'm looking forward to the day when I don't have to be like this, but it may take a while to unlearn even then. Being 'on' 24x7x365 for nigh on 4 decades is trying...

It may be easy to presume that I am not aware of these things. Having someone else notice, without assuming the worst and being a prick, is a step towards the kind of people I'd like to be around. I find your criticism pleasant because it is accurate.

I know I come across as abrasive, uncouth, and sometimes just downright vicious. Some people deserve a good @ss kicking, metaphorically. It is the least I can do to turn back on them what I have absorbed. At least I'm not going postal... ;-)

I also have a very direct, no sugar-coating presentation that is easy to mis-construe without inflection and so on. Our society is accustomed, even demands, the dumbing down and softening up of unpleasantness. I don't do it. The goes a long way easy towards being easy to mis-read in teh interwebz, even when I'm not intending to be.

I declare this thread hijack complete...

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I have made the point many times on multiple forums that the internet is an extroirdinary advance in human potiential.

Citizen is correct in that, with knowledge, eventually, will come wisdom and understanding, along with compassion.

Whyadda think China and Google are sparring?

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ixtow wrote:

The problem is Church. People get very optimistic when slapping each other on the back and telling each other what they already know.

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The conspiracy of ignorance masquerades as common sense. Agreement, consensus even, does not truth make.

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The 2nd amendment

" A well regulated militia being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the People to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed."

"A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed."

Note how it says well regulated (trained) militia and not the average joe who can afford an automatic. How can people take a sentence so out of context? Wait. Every pro-open carry open says one thing " Right to bear arms.2nd amendment." They just leave out the 1st part.

Selectively choosing which part of the amendment to follow

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The Supreme Court has ruled the right an individual one--as the Founders intended. I suggest that you get over it.

Where do you think the members of the militia first got their weapons and first got their training? Not from the well-regulated militia. Dad put an unlicensed gun in his untrained son's hands and taught him.

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whatguns wrote:

The 2nd amendment

" A well regulated militia being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the People to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed."

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"shall not be infringed." - seems pretty clear to me.

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whatguns wrote:

Selectively choosing which part of the amendment to follow

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Well, you can 'follow' the prefatory clause, or follow the scholarship, legal and historical, surrounding it.

Either we are equal or we are not. Good people ought to be armed where they will, with wits and guns and the truth.

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See what you just did there. You just proved my point exactly.You underlined exactly the words you wanted to hear.

If you are a person in the trained militia you should be able to carry a gun

See what I did there, I tool the sentence completely out of context by selectively interpreting parts of that statement.

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I would guess that you wished it said " the right of the MILITIA to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed" .... too bad for the anti's that it doesn't say that.

Rather than me go into it, I suggest you go back and read the Heller decision so that you can understand things correctly.

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I don't follow any clause. I follow the constitution the way it was written. People love expressing that one part of the sentence "Right to bear arms."

Read the whole sentence. Especially if you're a constitutionalist. Otherwise, never say its in the constitution because u have failed to read the whole thing.

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whatguns wrote:

I don't follow any clause. I follow the constitution the way it was written. People love expressing that one part of the sentence "Right to bear arms."

Read the whole sentence. Especially if you're a constitutionalist. Otherwise, never say its in the constitution because u have failed to read the whole thing.

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Your argument has been made by better men than you - and defeated. Hasta la byebye.

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whatguns wrote:

The 2nd amendment

" A well regulated militia being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the People to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed."

"A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed."

Note how it says well regulated (trained) militia and not the average joe who can afford an automatic. How can people take a sentence so out of context? Wait. Every pro-open carry open says one thing " Right to bear arms.2nd amendment." They just leave out the 1st part.

Selectively choosing which part of the amendment to follow

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Aren't these AHSA shills just so precious? Pretending not to know the difference between a requirement and a justification. That's just so... special.

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whatguns wrote:

Especially if you're a constitutionalist.

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Your "argument" is that of a nihilist.

Say, weren't you just in another forum declaring that Muslim clerics should be allowed to act as character witnesses?

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whatguns wrote:

The 2nd amendment

" A well regulated militia being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the People to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed."

"A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed."

Note how it says well regulated (trained) militia and not the average joe who can afford an automatic. How can people take a sentence so out of context? Wait. Every pro-open carry open says one thing " Right to bear arms.2nd amendment." They just leave out the 1st part.

Selectively choosing which part of the amendment to follow

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The militia refers to the people, also.

"I ask, sir, what is the militia? It is the whole people, except for a few public officials." — George Mason, in Debates in Virginia Convention

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Federal law also declares that all males between the ages of 17 and 45 are members of the militia. The 2nd amendment militia clause states that a well-regulated militia (which is in good working order) is necessary for the security of a free state. You can't have a working militia without arms. If you understand grammar, the militia clause simply provides a good reason for the right described in the active clause. It doesn't restrict the right to bear arms to the militia.

Consider this sentence:

A well-functioning band, being essential to having a good concert, the right of the people to keep and play instruments shall not be infringed.

This sentence neither limits instruments to band members nor requires training for people to possess instruments. It simply describes that a good band is necessary for a good concert and people can have instruments.

The same is true of the 2nd Amendment.

Want to have a better working militia? Why not teach arms and tactics to everyone in K-12 school?

Understanding that the militia means everyone and well-regulated means in good working order, you can understand the militia clause a bit better. Patents in the 1800s for well-regulated clocks did not refer to clocks that had lots of legal restrictions, it meant that they worked well. The founders of this country were suspicious of standing armies and had just fought a war for independence.

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Felid`Maximus:

Well said!