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Thread: Somehow "I told you so" just doesn't do it justice

  1. #1
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    All we kept hearing was "these guys are our friends" and "everything is going to work out right" . . . ad naseum . .

    When will you guys ever learn? . . . and "oh the surprise that the NRA won't take a position on Tom Miller's freedom robbing legislation!" Sorry, but I am not surprised one little, tiny bit . . .

    Sorry, but Iowa Carry has lost all righttocredibility . . . .

    SS





    Legislation Update
    March 2, 2010

    The "new and improved" wording for HF 2439 was released today. I have not been given a copy yet, and I have not yet seen it on the Iowa website, but our folks at the Capitol have seen it. Unfortunately, Rep. Rick Olson could not be trusted to make the final product look anything like what went in - namely HF 2255. Instead, a fairly worthless piece of legislation came forth from his efforts, and it's obvious that Rep. Olson is very worthy of his low NRA grade. HF 2439 is nothing even remotely close to what we were looking for, and as such, we are absolutely not going to support it. In fact, we'll be working to keep it from seeing the light of day outside of the House. Those of you who live in Rep. Rick Olson's district (House District 68 - Polk County) should remember all of the "hard work" that he's done for us this year when you go to the polls. He is absolutely no friend of gun owners in Iowa, and any of you who feel so inclined should write Rep. Olson a firm but polite "thank you note" when you get a chance.

    Is the fight over? No. There is still some strategy being pursued that may yet bring us relief this year. Until all of those cards have been played, we're not yet out of the game. For the time being, it's back to being a wait and watch thing for all of you. I know that's frustrating, but it's the best I can offer at this time.

    The other bill that has generated a lot of talk is SF 2357, the Domestic Violence bill. A lot has been said about the NRA's lack of a position on this bill, and I've received a number of questions about it. This bill is nothing more than a "feel good" piece of legislation that will do nothing to make Iowans safer. As much press as this bill has received over the past month or two, it was clear after the Senate vote that this bill was going to be passed through to Culver's desk regardless of your concerns or ours. That writing was on the wall. For the most part, it duplicates what is already Federal law. The unfortunate part is that with this bill, if passed as is, Federal law will be codified into Iowa law. The upside is that the bill has been watered down to a level that is at least a "no opinion" status, since nearly all of the teeth and really bad proposed legislation from the original submission have been removed.

    So there you have it. The session is getting closer to the end, but we're not done yet. Those of you who follow football could equate this to being at third and long, down by four points, late in the fourth quarter. We just need that one big play. A field goal won't do it.

    Sean



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    Here is one of my very favorites:

    The 'shell' bill that was passed out of Public Safety yesterday is a placeholder for 2255 which will now be worked on in committee. This action makes it possible to get past the funnel this week. I guess you could say that 721 will morph into 2255.
    It gives the parties involved more time to get it just right and possibly increase the number of yes votes on the floor.

    I was sitting there and watched the whole thing. Rep. Olson is OK and is not going to ruin the bill. Clel, and the NRA lobbyist Chris and the Iowa NRA lobbyist Scott, are all OK with this and it seems that the legislators really want to have a good bill and pass it out of the House. I am not worried about the future of the bill.

    Good find on that explanation of shell bill in the post above. It is a mechanism to get past a funnel when a bill may be modified, or in other words, may not be in final form.

    Roger B.
    Burddog

    Great . . . really read the tea leaves right on that one, didn't we? What astute judgement of character . . . sheesh!!!

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    Straight_Shooter wrote:
    Here is one of my very favorites:

    The 'shell' bill that was passed out of Public Safety yesterday is a placeholder for 2255 which will now be worked on in committee. This action makes it possible to get past the funnel this week. I guess you could say that 721 will morph into 2255.
    It gives the parties involved more time to get it just right and possibly increase the number of yes votes on the floor.

    I was sitting there and watched the whole thing. Rep. Olson is OK and is not going to ruin the bill. Clel, and the NRA lobbyist Chris and the Iowa NRA lobbyist Scott, are all OK with this and it seems that the legislators really want to have a good bill and pass it out of the House. I am not worried about the future of the bill.

    Good find on that explanation of shell bill in the post above. It is a mechanism to get past a funnel when a bill may be modified, or in other words, may not be in final form.

    Roger B.
    Burddog

    Great . . . really read the tea leaves right on that one, didn't we? What astute judgement of character . . . sheesh!!!
    SS, First post I've seen from you since!!!! Hopeyou are well. Defensor out.




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    well, if your disillusioned we have room for you over at wisconsin carry. dig our thread; that organization is earning every penny put into it!

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    DEFENSOR wrote:
    SS, First post I've seen from you since!!!! Hopeyou are well. Defensor out.

    Defensor -

    Thanks for the concern . . . I have been out of the country for a couple of weeks, and really not able to pay much attention to this. I am quite well, but saddened at the current situation with the anti-gun laws in this state.

    We need leadership, clear and simple . . . in the so-called "pro-gun rights groups," and most certainly in the legislature.

    Take care and post more often please.

    Thanks,

    SS

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    Maybe someone should have kept his mouth shut 'till the fat lady was at least warming up....

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    SigSauer232 wrote:
    Maybe someone should have kept his mouth shut 'till the fat lady was at least warming up....
    Maybe he just likes humble pie?

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    SigSauer232 wrote:
    Maybe someone should have kept his mouth shut 'till the fat lady was at least warming up....
    Worry not . . . continue to expose the NRA/Iowa Carry fiasco I will . . .

    In 20 years of having a CCW in Iowa, I have never had to "retrain" . . . thanks to you idiots, Iowan's who have been carrying a long,long time with plenty ofexperience doing so,now have to hand over their hard earned money to the NRA every 5 years,and no doubt Iowa Carry will have their hands out for this state sponsored thievery, to get "recertified" to get their CCW.

    Where in the HELL does the state legislature get off creating a monopoly on this "recertification" crap? Rest assured, I for one, will help in the cause to find away around this state sponsored fascist thuggery . . .

    And, of course, not that you loudmouths care, but the anti-gun Democrats are already heading back to their districts and crooning about how "they gave gun owners in Iowa what they wanted," which means that the charges of "anti-gun" will never be allowed to stick, and we are stuck with the worthless POS' once again . . . so . . . in total . . . "your"law continues to suck . . . and so does the arrogant NRA and Iowa Carry . . . I only hope one day that we can get true defenders of freedom and the second amendment to see beyond your statist crap.

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    SS got out of his cage somehow.

    Looks like his rehabilitation didn't take.

    Bet they put him back in jail soon.





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    I won't argue that Iowa's law doesn't still suck, but it's getting a lot, lot better. Many of us are stuck with Sheriffs who never issue permits. Iowa Carry changed that, and it's a big deal.

    Straight_Shooter wrote

    Where in the HELL does the state legislature get off creating a monopoly on this "recertification" crap?
    I agree, and I don't like it either. The new law does have a few ways around the NRA though; it's not a complete monopoly (but almost).

    Code:
    3 22    724.9  Firearm training program.
    3 23    1.  An applicant shall demonstrate knowledge of firearm
    3 24 safety by any of the following means:
    3 25    a.  Completion of any national rifle association handgun
    3 26 safety training course.
    3 27    b.  Completion of any handgun safety training course
    3 28 available to the general public offered by a law enforcement
    3 29 agency, community college, college, private or public
    3 30 institution or organization, or firearms training school,
    3 31 utilizing instructors certified by the national rifle
    3 32 association or the department of public safety or another
    3 33 state's department of public safety, state police department,
    3 34 or similar certifying body.
    3 35    c.  Completion of any handgun safety training course offered
    4  1 for security guards, investigators, special deputies, or any
    4  2 division or subdivision of a law enforcement or security
    4  3 enforcement agency approved by the department of public safety.
    4  4    d.  Completion of small arms training while serving with the
    4  5 armed forces of the United States as evidenced by any of the
    4  6 following:...
    Anyway, I think the bigger news here is something everyone over at Iowa Carry is missing. Whether by accident or on purpose they just made Iowa an open carry state. You see, under current Iowa law open carry is legal, but nobody does it. Everyone assumes that the sheriff will pull permits for open carrying. Now sheriffs seemingly don't have that option.

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    Straight_Shooter wrote:
    In 20 years of having a CCW in Iowa, so . . .
    in total . . . "your"law continues to suck . . . and so does the arrogant NRA and Iowa Carry . . . I only hope one day that we can get true defenders of freedom and the second amendment to see beyond your statist crap.


    CCW in Iowa? Really? Everyone I know who LEGALLY carries a firearm in Iowa has a Permit to Carry Weapons. Is SS even from Iowa? Or does he carry illegally?

    Great comment, Iowa Carry and the NRA suck. I learn so much everytime SS posts something.





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    Yeah and it does suck to have to take training every 5 years.

    Very strict training too, and only from the NRA.

    Probably many will not even be able to pass the training.





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    724.11 states, in part:
    However, for renewal of a permit the training program requirements in section 724.9, subsection 1, shall apply or the renewal applicant may choose to qualify on a firing range under the supervision of an instructor certified by the national rifle association or the department of public safety or another state's department of public safety, state police department, or similar certifying body. Such training or qualification must occur within the twelve=month period prior to the expiration of the applicant's current permit.
    It sounds like the APPLICANT gets to choose which training will qualify. The standard for renewal is the same for first application OR the applicant may choose a lower standard to re-qualify.

    The revised 724.9(1)a permits the NRA to supervise the training or re-qualification. 724.9(1)b would seem to allow the sheriff to supervise any training or re-qualification. What confuses me is that people that hold military discharge papers would seem to get a lifetime pass on any re-qualification under 724.9(1)d.

    It was pointed out to me that we have four years to fix this before anyone even needs to think about getting training. One obvious solution is to remove the re-qualification provision in 724.11. Other more desirable solutions is to get unlicensed open carry, that would remove the need to get a permit to carry or at least convince sheriffs to offer the re-qualification for free (or at least cheap) just so that the sheeple aren't startled in the county. There is also the possibility to get constitutional carry in Iowa before then.

    This is also counting chickens before they hatch since the governor has not signed the bill into law just yet. What is taking so long?

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    Straight_Shooter wrote:
    SigSauer232 wrote:
    Maybe someone should have kept his mouth shut 'till the fat lady was at least warming up....

    Worry not . . . continue to expose the NRA/Iowa Carry fiasco I will . . .
    You've exposed nothing , dream on.

    In 20 years of having a CCW in Iowa, I have never had to "retrain" . . . thanks to you idiots, Iowan's who have been carrying a long,long time with plenty ofexperience doing so,now have to hand over their hard earned money to the NRA every 5 years,and no doubt Iowa Carry will have their hands out for this state sponsored thievery, to get "recertified" to get their CCW.
    Your attitude is sort of making sense now, so as long as you had your permit, everyone else living in a county where the sheriff didn't issue could go to hell.


    Where in the HELL does the state legislature get off creating a monopoly on this "recertification" crap? Rest assured, I for one, will help in the cause to find away around this state sponsored fascist thuggery . .
    Monopoly?? What bill did you read?


    And, of course, not that you loudmouths care,
    This is rich, you calling someone else a loudmouth lol
    but the anti-gun Democrats are already heading back to their districts and crooning about how "they gave gun owners in Iowa what they wanted," which means that the charges of "anti-gun" will never be allowed to stick, and we are stuck with the worthless POS' once again . . . so . . . in total . . . "your"law continues to suck . . . and so does the arrogant NRA and Iowa Carry . . . I only hope one day that we can get true defenders of freedom and the second amendment to see beyond your statist crap.

    You go ahead and stick with the name calling and confrontational attitude of I WANT IT ALL AND I WANT IT RIGHT NOW. Didn't get you too far this year and it won't in the future.I'll bet Iowa Carry will work toward everything you wanted this year but were not going to get, no way, no how. In the meantime, goodpeople that could never get a carry permit will now get them, and out of staters with any valid permit will no longer have todisarm in order to visitIowa.

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    Straight_Shooter wrote:
    Worry not . . . continue to expose the NRA/Iowa Carry fiasco I will . . .
    Rest assured, I for one, will help in the cause to find away around this state sponsored fascist thuggery . . .





    THAT'S a BIG relief! Wooooo! We can all REST ASSURED now. I was really very, extremely worried too!

    I bet we all feel much safer knowing that Super Bat Boy is flying around in his costume tonight, keeping all people in Iowa safe.






    ( "Expose the Iowa Carry Fiasco I will" Backwards talk like Yoda this guy does. More tough that way sounds, backwards speaking like bad Hollywood movie script. Must watch Tonto on Lone Ranger, way he speak. Big tough man is he.)

    ("find away" LMAO!!!!!)













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    Everybody that pays for NRA training passes. It's the paying that's essential.

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    Master Doug Huffman wrote:
    Everybody that pays for NRA training passes.* It's the paying that's essential.
    That's quite the accusation. I assume you have proof of this. Please share with the rest of the class.

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    SigSauer232 wrote:

    Your attitude is sort of making sense now, so as long as you had your permit, everyone else living in a county where the sheriff didn't issue could go to hell.
    As does yours . . ."We got our permit now, andit doesn't matter that we had to selleveryone else down the river toget it and force them to spend hundreds of dollars to"exercise their rights" . . . and now my organization stands to make lots and lots of money off of the taxpayers!!"That has always been the attitude of Iowa Carry . . ."we don't care what we have to give up, as long as we can get our "shall issue" billpassed." Well, you did it, and you made a faustian bargain. I notice thateven your own members on yourwebsite are startingto wake up tothe fact that they will now have to spend hard earned bucks, time and hassleon"retraining" and don't like it much. . . so it isn't just me that hates this loss.All you people had to do was have your leadership tell theNRA and Baudler, etc, that you wouldn't support the bill with this language, but you were so blinded by your own uncontrolled desire that you didn't even know it was in the legislation.

    Where in the HELL does the state legislature get off creating a monopoly on this "recertification" crap? Rest assured, I for one, will help in the cause to find away around this state sponsored fascist thuggery . .
    Monopoly?? What bill did you read?
    The one you soldIowan's out with; but I can't expect you to knowwhat is in it. . . the only "training" accepted must be approved by either the NRA, a private corporation, or by the DPS, a state actor. That constitutes setting up a monopoly on what training is acceptable by limiting it to only a single private corporation. This is fascist beyond belief, but I know Iowa Carry members like you have no compunction against an overreaching state and will "justify the means with the ends."
    You go ahead and stick with the name calling and confrontational attitude of I WANT IT ALL AND I WANT IT RIGHT NOW.
    Gosh no . . . you are right . . . my sincere apologies. . . I should give up on wanting the second amendment of the Constitution recognized in Iowa . . . then I could be a statist sellout like you.
    Didn't get you too far this year and it won't in the future.
    Really? How Interesting that you would think so . . . six votes in each house seperated the recognition of the second amendment from your statist sellout bill. . . six.Of course, had the "mighty" NRA and Iowa Carry been pushing its members for the passage of this bill, it would have easily passed. But we all know that Iowa Carry and the NRA do not support the second amendment freedom of Iowan's. In fact, you people spent the whole session saying, "yes, we would like this, but it has no chance to pass" . . . so you didn't lift a finger (except the middle one). . . just like you didn't lift a finger to stop the un-Constitutional gun confiscation bill . . . Sorry sucker, you can be mad at me all you like, it doesn't matter; when the truthis known, you sold your birthright for a bowel of pottage.
    I'll bet Iowa Carry will work toward everything you wanted this year but were not going to get, no way, no how.
    That is highly doubtful, unless Iowa Carry makes a major change in policy and attitude:
    "Many people believe that no training should be required to carry a weapon for self-defense. While this is a "best case" scenario, realistically, it is not a goal that we feel is attainable. Carrying a weapon for self-defense is an awesome responsibility. No one-day training program can ever provide all of the critical training needed for that, but it is better than no training at all."
    The bottom line is that Iowa Carry does not recognize the second amendment right of Americans to keep and BEAR arms, at least not without jumping through all kinds of government approvals and "training" . . . they are a nanny state organization in every respect of the word.

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    LongCarry wrote:
    "Anyway, I think the bigger news here is something everyone over at Iowa Carry is missing. Whether by accident or on purpose they just made Iowa an open carry state. You see, under current Iowa law open carry is legal, but nobody does it. Everyone assumes that the sheriff will pull permits for open carrying. Now sheriffs seemingly don't have that option."


    LongCarry -

    I would exercise caution with this . . . although you may have a point. Keep in mind the following language that was included in the law:

    "[A permit can be denied/rescinded if] Probable cause exists to believe, based upon documented specific actions of the person, where at least one of the actions occurred within two years immediately preceding the date of the permit application, that the person is likely to use a weapon unlawfully or in such other manner as would endanger the person's self or others."

    This is HIGHLYinterpretive, sothis clause STILL gives the sheriff a lot of lattitude to restrict/rescind permits. You can bet your bonnet that the anti-gun sheriffs will stretch this clause to the limit . . . and I would bet a lot of $ that open carry would be one of those things where it will be stretched.
    "Probable cause" is a very low standard of evidence, normally used only to further investigation, etc, but in this case is used to deny a permit. If a sheriff says that carrying in the open appears to create a public disturbance, or makes people nervous, that will no doubt stand up in a court of law (administrative or otherwise) as "probable cause" . . . and "bingo" . . . no permit anymore.

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    Max G wrote:

    ("find away" LMAO!!!!!)
    Wow . . . do you Iowa Carry guys reallyclaim this "person?"

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    IA_farmboy wrote:
    724.11 states, in part:
    However, for renewal of a permit the training program requirements in section 724.9, subsection 1, shall apply or the renewal applicant may choose to qualify on a firing range under the supervision of an instructor certified by the national rifle association or the department of public safety or another state's department of public safety, state police department, or similar certifying body. Such training or qualification must occur within the twelve=month period prior to the expiration of the applicant's current permit.
    It sounds like the APPLICANT gets to choose which training will qualify. The standard for renewal is the same for first application OR the applicant may choose a lower standard to re-qualify.

    The revised 724.9(1)a permits the NRA to supervise the training or re-qualification. 724.9(1)b would seem to allow the sheriff to supervise any training or re-qualification. What confuses me is that people that hold military discharge papers would seem to get a lifetime pass on any re-qualification under 724.9(1)d.

    It was pointed out to me that we have four years to fix this before anyone even needs to think about getting training. One obvious solution is to remove the re-qualification provision in 724.11. Other more desirable solutions is to get unlicensed open carry, that would remove the need to get a permit to carry or at least convince sheriffs to offer the re-qualification for free (or at least cheap) just so that the sheeple aren't startled in the county. There is also the possibility to get constitutional carry in Iowa before then.

    This is also counting chickens before they hatch since the governor has not signed the bill into law just yet. What is taking so long?
    IFB -

    There are some efforts taking place right now to see if this training can be offered free or at very low cost . . . however, I don't think the statement about waiting four years is quite correct . . . anyone who seeks a renewal after the first of the year, under this law, would be subject to the requirements to retrain.

    The whole thing will revolve around the vague language "other certifying body." Since the NRA had to do absolutely nothing to become a "certifying body," will the same be true of others? (I doubt it) . . . and who exactly has the say as to whether someone issuing a certificate of completion is a valid "certifying body?" Probably should have said the DPS, but it doesn't. I for one will be contacting the DPS onces this becomes law and asking the questions. But I don't expect coherent answers . . . at least not right away. I have no doubt that the DPS will be making standards (and therefore the law - outside of the legislature) as they go.

    For all the talk of "statewide trainingstandards" that Iowa Carry always talks about, this bill incorporates nothing of the sort. It is full of ambiguous language that will no doubt evolve into years of court debate, etc, as to what this all means.

    I know that people like Maxie are incapable of understanding what "vague language" means and how this is very poorly written law . . . but I know that you understand it . . this bill sucks . . .

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    SS continues his rants which make all gun owners look like nuts.

    When SS and his brothers marched around the Capitol, you could almost hear Dueling Banjos playing. They were known as the stoned-out Zombies, as theywalked in lock-step with blank stares.

    One of em, even fell asleep in the House Chamber, in the Handicapped seating area. Priceless!

    Great bunch they are.

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    SS, you out of rehab already?


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    Or maybe SS was "out of the country" again, on one of his missions.




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